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Author Topic: Klondike - 16 chip ASIC Open Source Board - Preliminary  (Read 434327 times)
fasmax
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September 06, 2013, 09:35:03 PM
 #2961

I have a DIP version of the PIC chip, later tonight or tomorrow I will program it with the released firmware and run CGM on it.
Then I will try and look at the nonce data the is suppose to be sent to the ASIC's and report back what I saw.
 
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Once a transaction has 6 confirmations, it is extremely unlikely that an attacker without at least 50% of the network's computation power would be able to reverse it.
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September 07, 2013, 12:26:51 AM
Last edit: September 07, 2013, 04:38:37 AM by fasmax
 #2962

Ok got that running. I can see identical configuration data being transmitted to both banks. RC7 matches RC4 and RC6 matches RC3. The configuration is a long sequence and I haven't found a way to see the nonce ranges that get sent to each bank yet. Going to look at this later when I get more time.

Edit
The nonce range data is loaded into both banks at the same time. The nonce data is identical between banks except for the MSBit and it is always zero for bank 1 and the MSBit is always one for bank 2.
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September 07, 2013, 11:06:20 AM
Last edit: September 07, 2013, 11:16:38 AM by zipiju
 #2963

Ok got that running. I can see identical configuration data being transmitted to both banks. RC7 matches RC4 and RC6 matches RC3. The configuration is a long sequence and I haven't found a way to see the nonce ranges that get sent to each bank yet. Going to look at this later when I get more time.

Edit
The nonce range data is loaded into both banks at the same time. The nonce data is identical between banks except for the MSBit and it is always zero for bank 1 and the MSBit is always one for bank 2.

Thanks for that.
I've looked at the code, and found where the pins are selected.
There is a define in klondike.h - DATA_ONE and DATA_ZERO.
Both these are hex values, which when converted to bin are the ports which are connected to the ASICs. It's done in a way, that those pins are pulled down and high in pairs at both sides.
So it's for sure now, that both sides are by default (even with latest firmware) working on same problem, thus only half of the speed and higher error rate. This also explains, why board with 4 chips has ER < 0.4% (when OCed to 350MHz) and board with 4 chips in each bank (8 chips in total) has around 4-5%, with same hashing speed as the first.
Now the question is, which way to do this would be better:
a) split the work to 16 nonce ranges, feed both sides with half of it one by one - so the whole board will be working on one problem. There would be some delay, because feeding twice the time, so maybe a slightly lower speed (we are talking here probably around 0.5% or so).
b) make two separated work units 8 nonce ranges each, so both sides will be working on a different mathematical problem.

I think, that the a) would be better, and I will start working on firmware mods to do it like this.
About the b) option, I do not know, if there will be some mods also in CGM driver needed, but probably not.

If anyone has any other opinion, let me know.

EDIT
About the feeding twice the time. This could be also done in parralel, but it's harder to code, so will do this one by one for now.

Be sure to check out http://projectklondike.org/ site
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September 07, 2013, 06:45:41 PM
 #2964

Zip, that's a great find and explains a lot of mystery. Well done lad ! - post an BTC address so we can tip you

Note to NSA: please note in my personal file that the above comment, as well as any and all communications dating back to AOL/1993, are wholly fictitious, and are to be regarded as such. The later statement is to remain in effect until reversed by me personally in a waterboard-free questioning.
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September 07, 2013, 09:56:24 PM
 #2965

Zip, that's a great find and explains a lot of mystery. Well done lad ! - post an BTC address so we can tip you

Send that tip to BkkCoins. He deserves all the glory.
And don't get too excited, I've made that mistake couple of times Smiley.

Be sure to check out http://projectklondike.org/ site
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Darktongue
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September 08, 2013, 03:48:14 AM
 #2966



 I'd love to get my hands dirty in this project.  I can work well with firmware and deadlines. I have Avalon Chips I just need a board minus chips or a finished bricked board.  Send one with power problems.  This project needs some fresh eyes.  I'd work we would win and I'd somehow manage to get more beer and waffles in my fridge.

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September 08, 2013, 03:55:50 AM
 #2967



 I'd love to get my hands dirty in this project.  I can work well with firmware and deadlines. I have Avalon Chips I just need a board minus chips or a finished bricked board.  Send one with power problems.  This project needs some fresh eyes.  I'd work we would win and I'd somehow manage to get more beer and waffles in my fridge.



Not sure who has boards but there are quite a few people who are holding the bag for fabrication. I would try getting a hold of BKKCoins, SebastianJu, Ryepdx, Terrahash... few others out there as well doing boards I think. Our own team pulled the plug on our K1s and refunded everyone as it was clear chips were not going to arrive on time. We are now working on BitFury One USB miners but ya that be great need to talk to those groups and people still looking to go forward.


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September 08, 2013, 04:32:42 AM
 #2968



 I'd love to get my hands dirty in this project.  I can work well with firmware and deadlines. I have Avalon Chips I just need a board minus chips or a finished bricked board.  Send one with power problems.  This project needs some fresh eyes.  I'd work we would win and I'd somehow manage to get more beer and waffles in my fridge.



Not sure who has boards but there are quite a few people who are holding the bag for fabrication. I would try getting a hold of BKKCoins, SebastianJu, Ryepdx, Terrahash... few others out there as well doing boards I think. Our own team pulled the plug on our K1s and refunded everyone as it was clear chips were not going to arrive on time. We are now working on BitFury One USB miners but ya that be great need to talk to those groups and people still looking to go forward.



Thanks for the quick reply.  I'm glad we have some left who are willing and able.  The potency of this shitstorm is out of control. I praise the efforts of bkk and everyone working on a solution.  I don't want to reinvent the wheel if I don't have to.  And I don't believe we need worry about a serious landmark delay. It can and will work Smiley


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September 08, 2013, 05:20:56 AM
 #2969



 I'd love to get my hands dirty in this project.  I can work well with firmware and deadlines. I have Avalon Chips I just need a board minus chips or a finished bricked board.  Send one with power problems.  This project needs some fresh eyes.  I'd work we would win and I'd somehow manage to get more beer and waffles in my fridge.



I have a K16 board and PIC chip on order with BkkCoins. I'm not sure what his shipping schedule is though. If we could get him to ship that to you priority, and if you have the rest of the BOM, I'd consider letting you have a go at it.

Easily see your cgminer status with my cgminerLCDStats app:  http://cardcomm.github.io/cgminerLCDStats/
Did my post help you or make you laugh? Let me know with Bitcoins at: 1CQfpMHQ5zVuZ5i9uxSHSSx4J8ZhehSjn3  Smiley
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September 08, 2013, 02:58:09 PM
 #2970

i see the 4.5 GH/sec Modular Board still out of stock......https://terrahash.com/product/4-5-ghsec-module/

will it be sold sometime soon again?
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September 08, 2013, 05:20:29 PM
 #2971

i see the 4.5 GH/sec Modular Board still out of stock......https://terrahash.com/product/4-5-ghsec-module/

will it be sold sometime soon again?

Wrong thread Smiley

Be sure to check out http://projectklondike.org/ site
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mjmvisser
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September 09, 2013, 02:04:13 PM
 #2972

As the days pass without shipped chips, it's becoming clear that projects using Avalon's offering will not see a profit, let alone ROI. Many of us have sunk money into board and assembly costs. At this point, there appear to be three options:

1. carry on development and testing, hope Avalon ships chips, keep fingers crossed that difficulty stays low enough to break even
2. abandon the project, demand mass refunds from Bitsyncom, and all take individual losses
3. sue sue sue sue sue sue sue
4. retarget the Klondikes for a more powerful chip

#1 is the equivalent of investing in CPU mining during the GPU revolution. We're paying for fancy space heaters.

I've invested enough that #2 is not an option for me.

Anyone crying "lawsuit" has no experience with the legal system. We entered into this venture knowing there was substantial risk. Tough titties people, throwing money at lawyers will not extract blood from a stone.

That leaves retargeting for another chip. I think this is possible. Functionally, chips do the same thing -- iterate over a range of nonces, computing a hash. The board design will definitely have to change, but I suspect the BOM will not change drastically. At the very least, the expensive parts (PIC, buck regs) will almost certainly not change. Also, there is now an actual market for chips, with different suppliers competing on price and features. We're in a pretty good position to negotiate bulk purchases.

Thoughts?
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September 09, 2013, 02:25:06 PM
 #2973

As the days pass without shipped chips, it's becoming clear that projects using Avalon's offering will not see a profit, let alone ROI. Many of us have sunk money into board and assembly costs. At this point, there appear to be three options:

1. carry on development and testing, hope Avalon ships chips, keep fingers crossed that difficulty stays low enough to break even
2. abandon the project, demand mass refunds from Bitsyncom, and all take individual losses
3. sue sue sue sue sue sue sue
4. retarget the Klondikes for a more powerful chip

#1 is the equivalent of investing in CPU mining during the GPU revolution. We're paying for fancy space heaters.

I've invested enough that #2 is not an option for me.

Anyone crying "lawsuit" has no experience with the legal system. We entered into this venture knowing there was substantial risk. Tough titties people, throwing money at lawyers will not extract blood from a stone.

That leaves retargeting for another chip. I think this is possible. Functionally, chips do the same thing -- iterate over a range of nonces, computing a hash. The board design will definitely have to change, but I suspect the BOM will not change drastically. At the very least, the expensive parts (PIC, buck regs) will almost certainly not change. Also, there is now an actual market for chips, with different suppliers competing on price and features. We're in a pretty good position to negotiate bulk purchases.

Thoughts?

I don't think everyone needs to.abandon.  For the sake of community development. I'd say we finish the project.  If a handful exist  that's okay. I understand people are MIA as well as nerve racked.  That is why I believe wr need fresh hands and eyes on this project. 
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September 09, 2013, 02:31:49 PM
 #2974

I don't think everyone needs to.abandon.  For the sake of community development. I'd say we finish the project.  If a handful exist  that's okay. I understand people are MIA as well as nerve racked.  That is why I believe wr need fresh hands and eyes on this project.  

Absolutely! I'm not advocating we abandon the project. But there's no point in continuing the design using first-generation Avalon chips. They are obsolete. At this point, with an assembled board in hand, if you mine forever, you will not make back the cost of the miner. However, we can retarget for a different chip and, at the very least, break even.
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September 09, 2013, 06:33:44 PM
Last edit: September 09, 2013, 06:50:06 PM by zipiju
 #2975

I don't think everyone needs to.abandon.  For the sake of community development. I'd say we finish the project.  If a handful exist  that's okay. I understand people are MIA as well as nerve racked.  That is why I believe wr need fresh hands and eyes on this project.  

Absolutely! I'm not advocating we abandon the project. But there's no point in continuing the design using first-generation Avalon chips. They are obsolete. At this point, with an assembled board in hand, if you mine forever, you will not make back the cost of the miner. However, we can retarget for a different chip and, at the very least, break even.

The design is fully functional, the only thing that needs to be finished is firmware.
I have two boards hashing with only one side (with 8 chips) at about 3Ghps, ~3% ER (without USB ferrite beads), chips overclocked to 375MHz with no overvolt. Other side on each board has few chips that do not respond, but this is because those chips were poorly soldered. And on every board it's different side. Tried to fix it yesterday, but was unsuccessful, and now waiting for solder wick and isopropylalcohol.
I've also tried some modifications in firmware for 16 chips, but it wasn't really usable. The board with that did hash faster, but had around 20% ER - which is a firmware and poorly assembled chips problem, not the design one. Now waiting with this until I fix the other side, then will continue working on FW.
Tried also to contact one of the companies, that claimed to have fully working board (with firmware that hash with all 16 chips), but they did not respond. Anyone here can guess why.
About the ROI, it really is gone now, but you have to take into account, that BTC price will likely go up, so even if you lose now, you can gain later. Especially if you've already made an investment in the HW, chips etc.

Edit:
And about changing the HW for next gen Avalon chips (or any other chips), who is going to make this? Bkk seems to be gone (probably get sick of all the events regarding chips delivery, companies taking advantage of opensource project and giving nothing back) and there seems to be noone (even in the group of those companies, which started their business on this) who is able to make this change.

Be sure to check out http://projectklondike.org/ site
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btceic
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September 09, 2013, 06:51:25 PM
 #2976

I don't think everyone needs to.abandon.  For the sake of community development. I'd say we finish the project.  If a handful exist  that's okay. I understand people are MIA as well as nerve racked.  That is why I believe wr need fresh hands and eyes on this project.  

Absolutely! I'm not advocating we abandon the project. But there's no point in continuing the design using first-generation Avalon chips. They are obsolete. At this point, with an assembled board in hand, if you mine forever, you will not make back the cost of the miner. However, we can retarget for a different chip and, at the very least, break even.

The design is fully functional, the only thing that needs to be finished is firmware.
I have two boards hashing with only one side (with 8 chips) at about 3Ghps, ~3% ER (without USB ferrite beads), chips overclocked to 375MHz with no overvolt. Other side on each board has few chips that do not respond, but this is because those chips were poorly soldered. And on every board it's different side. Tried to fix it yesterday, but was unsuccessful, and now waiting for solder wick and isopropylalcohol.
I've also tried some modifications in firmware for 16 chips, but it wasn't really usable. The board with that did hash faster, but had around 20% ER - which is a firmware and poorly assembled chips problem, not the design one. Now waiting with this until I fix the other side, then will continue working on FW.
Tried also to contact one of the companies, that claimed to have fully working board (with firmware that hash with all 16 chips), but they did not respond. Anyone here can guess why.
About the ROI, it really is gone now, but you have to take into account, that BTC price will likely go up, so even if you lose now, you can gain later. Especially if you've already made an investment in the HW, chips etc.

Edit:
And about changing the HW for next gen Avalon chips (or any other chips), who is going to make this? Bkk seems to be gone (probably get sick of all the events regarding chips delivery, companies taking advantage of opensource project and giving nothing back) and there is noone (even in the group of those companies, which started their business on this) who is able to make this change.

Is it not possible for you guys to use TerraHash's stuff? They said they have working k16's with less than 1% error rates.

♫ This situation, which side are you on? Are you getting out? Are you dropping bombs? Have you heard of diplomatic resolve? ♫ How To Run A Cheap Full Bitcoin Node For $19 A Year ♫ If I knew where it was, I would take you there. There’s much more than this. ♫ Track Your Bitcoins Value
zipiju
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September 09, 2013, 07:02:12 PM
 #2977

I don't think everyone needs to.abandon.  For the sake of community development. I'd say we finish the project.  If a handful exist  that's okay. I understand people are MIA as well as nerve racked.  That is why I believe wr need fresh hands and eyes on this project.  

Absolutely! I'm not advocating we abandon the project. But there's no point in continuing the design using first-generation Avalon chips. They are obsolete. At this point, with an assembled board in hand, if you mine forever, you will not make back the cost of the miner. However, we can retarget for a different chip and, at the very least, break even.

The design is fully functional, the only thing that needs to be finished is firmware.
I have two boards hashing with only one side (with 8 chips) at about 3Ghps, ~3% ER (without USB ferrite beads), chips overclocked to 375MHz with no overvolt. Other side on each board has few chips that do not respond, but this is because those chips were poorly soldered. And on every board it's different side. Tried to fix it yesterday, but was unsuccessful, and now waiting for solder wick and isopropylalcohol.
I've also tried some modifications in firmware for 16 chips, but it wasn't really usable. The board with that did hash faster, but had around 20% ER - which is a firmware and poorly assembled chips problem, not the design one. Now waiting with this until I fix the other side, then will continue working on FW.
Tried also to contact one of the companies, that claimed to have fully working board (with firmware that hash with all 16 chips), but they did not respond. Anyone here can guess why.
About the ROI, it really is gone now, but you have to take into account, that BTC price will likely go up, so even if you lose now, you can gain later. Especially if you've already made an investment in the HW, chips etc.

Edit:
And about changing the HW for next gen Avalon chips (or any other chips), who is going to make this? Bkk seems to be gone (probably get sick of all the events regarding chips delivery, companies taking advantage of opensource project and giving nothing back) and there is noone (even in the group of those companies, which started their business on this) who is able to make this change.

Is it not possible for you guys to use TerraHash's stuff? They said they have working k16's with less than 1% error rates.

What Terrahash stuff? They have used stuff that Bkk made as opensource. To be absolutely clear on this, I've wrote to them about mine board with 4 chips assembled hashing at 400MHz with around 0.6% ER, when they were asking me via PM about the changes in HW I made to get it working. They were not able to fix even this for the whole time. They claimed even here on this forum, that the design is wrong.
Later, when they did claimed at 5th of September, that they do have a working board, and the only issue there is I2C, I've wrote them again, asking what firmware changes do they made to hash with all 16 chips and that low error rate.
They didn't even bother to wrote me back.
So what do they actually have? Nothing? Lies?

Be sure to check out http://projectklondike.org/ site
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Axion_Zen
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September 09, 2013, 07:05:07 PM
 #2978

It is most likely a hardware bug in the circuit. During our testing we realized that the Dual NOR gates used in the design are too fast, and there needs to be some propagation delay. Using a cheap NOR gate chip from Fry's did the trick. We are still trying to see if this can be fixed in the firmware.

Maybe you may also want to try to use a bigger capacitor for the phase shifter in front of the NOR gate. A circuit should not depend on the propagation delays or fabrication tolerances of logic gates. I also tried to use the internal comparator of the PIC as a NOR gate, which is even better since it has some clock synchronization register. But it has shown that the comparator is not fast enough...

Already tried using bigger capacitor. Does not work. The only work around we have found is using a slower gate, so far.

I'm sorry to tell you, but you're wrong.
I'm using v0.3.1 board with bigger cap (currently about 260pF) and it's hashing quite well.
Without it, the clock signal is not delayed enough - just about 5ns and bad nonces are returned.
BTW terrahash, what modifications did you made to the 4 chip firmware to hash with all 16 chips?

You are using 260pF for C274 right?

In order to hash with 16 chips, you need to make the following modifications in klondike.c, from line 159:

Code:
    Status.ChipCount = 16;
   
    // pre-calc nonce range values
    BankSize = (Status.ChipCount+1)/2;
    Status.MaxCount = WORK_TICKS / BankSize / 2;
    NonceRanges[0] = 0;
    for(BYTE x = 1; x < BankSize; x++)
        NonceRanges[x] = NonceRanges[x-1] + BankRanges[BankSize-1];
They said here how they got it working with 16 chips..?
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September 09, 2013, 07:12:53 PM
 #2979

It is most likely a hardware bug in the circuit. During our testing we realized that the Dual NOR gates used in the design are too fast, and there needs to be some propagation delay. Using a cheap NOR gate chip from Fry's did the trick. We are still trying to see if this can be fixed in the firmware.

Maybe you may also want to try to use a bigger capacitor for the phase shifter in front of the NOR gate. A circuit should not depend on the propagation delays or fabrication tolerances of logic gates. I also tried to use the internal comparator of the PIC as a NOR gate, which is even better since it has some clock synchronization register. But it has shown that the comparator is not fast enough...

Already tried using bigger capacitor. Does not work. The only work around we have found is using a slower gate, so far.

I'm sorry to tell you, but you're wrong.
I'm using v0.3.1 board with bigger cap (currently about 260pF) and it's hashing quite well.
Without it, the clock signal is not delayed enough - just about 5ns and bad nonces are returned.
BTW terrahash, what modifications did you made to the 4 chip firmware to hash with all 16 chips?

You are using 260pF for C274 right?

In order to hash with 16 chips, you need to make the following modifications in klondike.c, from line 159:

Code:
   Status.ChipCount = 16;
    
    // pre-calc nonce range values
    BankSize = (Status.ChipCount+1)/2;
    Status.MaxCount = WORK_TICKS / BankSize / 2;
    NonceRanges[0] = 0;
    for(BYTE x = 1; x < BankSize; x++)
        NonceRanges[x] = NonceRanges[x-1] + BankRanges[BankSize-1];
They said here how they got it working with 16 chips..?

Yeah the only issue there is, that it's not working and it even can't work with that.
The firmware, in it's early stages, were programmed to send same configuration data to both banks. So you had all 16 chips doing something, the only problem was, that both banks were solving the same problem. So you have higher error rate because of the collisions, and only half of the speed.
So changing the nonce range with the code above isn't going to help here.
And I've asked them again (after that), if they did changed anything else, and got no response.
And the response above I only get because they wanted to know from me, what changes I've made in HW to get it working.

Be sure to check out http://projectklondike.org/ site
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September 09, 2013, 08:34:08 PM
 #2980

@ BkkCoins. Why keep ignoring my emails and pm's? Where is my order or refund you've promised? My order suppose to be shipped  first week of August and I still got nothing and its September.  No pcbs, no refund. You can be sure that I will never trust you again with any coins and now I regret that I didn't pay with paypal.
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