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Author Topic: [ANN][YAC] YACoin ongoing development  (Read 351442 times)
forsetifox
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June 04, 2013, 09:33:11 AM
 #481

Um.. my hash rate just got cut in half again. The next N change was supposed to be on the 25th wasn't it?
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WindMaster
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June 04, 2013, 09:38:13 AM
 #482

Um.. my hash rate just got cut in half again. The next N change was supposed to be on the 25th wasn't it?

N is still 1024:

Quote
./yacoind getmininginfo
{
    "blocks" : 79324,
    "currentblocksize" : 2609,
    "currentblocktx" : 2,
    "difficulty" : 0.96756334,
    "errors" : "",
    "generate" : false,
    "genproclimit" : 8,
    "hashespersec" : 0,
    "networkhashps" : 44056749,
    "pooledtx" : 2,
    "testnet" : false,
    "Nfactor" : 9,
    "N" : 1024,
    "powreward" : 25.14000000
}

If your hash rate dropped in half without N changing, you probably have some sort of other local problem happening.
forsetifox
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June 04, 2013, 09:45:49 AM
 #483

My bad. Video encoding was messing it up.  Cheesy
cryptrol
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June 04, 2013, 10:55:00 AM
 #484

How is GPU development going ? Anyone succeeded in going above NFactor 12 ?
The overall hashrate is increasing and I wonder how many GPU's are hitting the network ...
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June 04, 2013, 11:07:34 AM
 #485

What kind of hashrate can you expect from an AMD 8350 with the current N-value with cpuminerd using AVX?

www.bitbuy.nl - Koop eenvoudig, snel en goedkoop bitcoins bij Bitbuy!
hanzac
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June 04, 2013, 02:39:09 PM
 #486

How is GPU development going ? Anyone succeeded in going above NFactor 12 ?
The overall hashrate is increasing and I wonder how many GPU's are hitting the network ...

I will try Nfactor 12 this weekend. I think it's achievable although maybe slower.
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June 04, 2013, 03:17:32 PM
 #487

Geee.. so only a few people have a GPU miner for this?

And how fast can a GPU run?

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June 04, 2013, 03:22:38 PM
 #488

Geee.. so only a few people have a GPU miner for this?

And how fast can a GPU run?

http://yacexplorer.tk/graphs.htm Goto the tech info.
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June 04, 2013, 03:44:18 PM
 #489

Can someone make a browser miner (like bitcoinplus.com for bitcoins)? It is very suitable for CPU mining. And it would be a good way for the populace to go in yacoins.
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June 05, 2013, 12:42:53 AM
 #490

I've seen posts by several folks recently that are starting to mine yacoin on CPUs are running into very disappointing returns. Especially for a coin as new as yacoin, this could be an issue that hinders adoption. I think that possibly the N adjustments have been coming a bit too fast (or the block reward is too little) too early on. I see the difficulty is continuing to drop after the last N increase, but I wonder if that will be enough. The coin still only has a circulation of a bit over 3MM with about half of that being amassed in the top 10 addresses. Yacoin's unique CPU potential aside, the viability of any new currency lies in its ability to be distributed initially in as wide and efficient a manner as possible, rewarding early adopters but also encouraging newcomers to adopt it as the monetary base expands. I fear we may be turning some folks off to the coin. The expectation is that these folks not think they're becoming "rich", but more get more of a reward than 10 cents worth of coin for mining it on their CPU for a day.

This issue has two possible solutions: tweaking the coin parameters down the road a bit, or continuing to work to increase per-coin valuation through other means. The first could backfire, however. What is everyone's opinion on this?
forsetifox
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June 05, 2013, 12:50:39 AM
 #491

Yeah. The N changes were too fast. If someone were to make another coin based on this but have the N changes like once every 3-6 months it would work out much better for everyone.

That would make the most "perfect" alt coin in existance IMHO.
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June 05, 2013, 01:28:23 AM
 #492

Bunch of progressively wacky ideas:

* Be patient and don't get rushed before N has properly hardened and we learn about YAC's long term balance.
* Getting YAC listed on BTC-e so hopefully it becomes profitable.
* A bundle with a profitable GPU alt so people gets used to mine both, regardless of which one is profitable.
* A dual wallet that GPU mines LTC or something and CPU mines YAC.
* Do nothing if transaction speed is not a problem and there's no risk of a 51% attack, since YACs are cheap to buy or trade for anyway.

Ok, maybe the last one isn't that crazy.

𝖄𝖆𝖈: YF3feU4PNLHrjwa1zV63BcCdWVk5z6DAh5 · 𝕭𝖙𝖈: 12F78M4oaNmyGE5C25ZixarG2Nk6UBEqme
Ɏ: "the altcoin for the everyman, where the sweat on one's brow can be used to cool one's overheating CPU" -- theprofileth
WindMaster
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June 05, 2013, 01:48:27 AM
 #493

I've seen posts by several folks recently that are starting to mine yacoin on CPUs are running into very disappointing returns. Especially for a coin as new as yacoin, this could be an issue that hinders adoption. I think that possibly the N adjustments have been coming a bit too fast (or the block reward is too little) too early on. I see the difficulty is continuing to drop after the last N increase, but I wonder if that will be enough. The coin still only has a circulation of a bit over 3MM with about half of that being amassed in the top 10 addresses. Yacoin's unique CPU potential aside, the viability of any new currency lies in its ability to be distributed initially in as wide and efficient a manner as possible, rewarding early adopters but also encouraging newcomers to adopt it as the monetary base expands. I fear we may be turning some folks off to the coin. The expectation is that these folks not think they're becoming "rich", but more get more of a reward than 10 cents worth of coin for mining it on their CPU for a day.

I think the problem probably doesn't have anything to do with what N is or what hash rates people are seeing.  If everyone vacated mining YAC and left it stranded at a high difficulty with block times measured in hours, as has happened with a bunch of the other scamcoin pump'n'dumps lately, then it would indeed be a problem.  But I think what we're seeing is that interest in mining YAC is high, hash rates are staying up, and tend to hover right in the range that power costs for CPU mining remain at break-even or slightly profitable.  That's probably what should tend to be expected for CPU'ish coins (until someone releases a GPU implementation that actually performs well).  If we were in trouble with the YAC parameters, it would be something like the N increases outpacing the amount of hash rate people are committing to it and stranding us with really high difficulty and massive spacing between blocks.  So far YAC has proven to be resistant to that effect that has crippled most other recently released altcoins.

If the block rate is X, and the reward is Y, then the amount of people mining it (or more accurately, the amount of hash power mining it) will self-regulate to a state of breaking even or slightly profitable with the block rewards being split up among a large enough number of people (or units of hash power) to maintain that state of equilibrium.  I think this would remain true regardless of what N is, or even if N were hard-coded to a fixed value.  In this case there aren't really other good profitable choices for people to point their CPU's at, so it tends to however close to break-even.

If the coin parameters were changed to increase the reward to make it more appealing to new entrants that have only a small amount of CPU power, that will just drop the value of the coin, and devalue all the YAC anyone is already holding.  That's sorta what some portion of the Elacoin miners wanted to do, modify the parameters to jack up their rewards, and I pretty vocally opposed it (as I do hold some ELC and occasionally point a GPU or two at mining ELC just for the fun of it).  Fortunately they did not significantly change the block reward mechanism in the end.

So I think the problem isn't that N is too high or that CPU's yield a certain amount of hash rate for a particular value of N.  That affects everyone mining the coin and so far, it appears tends to close the gaps between CPU and GPU mining (contrary to some early people saying GPU's would widen the gap at high values of N, which doesn't appear to be the case).  Instead, the problem is that the amount people are willing to pay for YAC is low right now, thus the value is low.  That itself isn't really controlled by any of the parameters of the coin, it's more controlled by less enthusiasm among cryptocurrency speculators lately.


This issue has two possible solutions: tweaking the coin parameters down the road a bit, or continuing to work to increase per-coin valuation through other means. The first could backfire, however. What is everyone's opinion on this?

I think changing the coin parameters is probably a very poor idea.  There's nothing really wrong with any of them that I can see.  Changing parameters and hard-forking the blockchain with an incompatible client, with changes that would tend to devalue the YAC that anyone is already holding, may be a difficult proposition for anyone already holding YAC, with other unintended consequences.  Plus it doesn't really reinforce confidence in a coin if they have to periodically change parameters, particular parameters that will devalue existing coins.  There's a good chance here that YAC may be one of the only recently released altcoins that does *not* need a hard fork to change parameters.

Note that the N changes are becoming farther and farther apart, so there's plenty of time for things to reach equilibrium between them.  Block rate will probably be at the target rate long before the next N change.  A few more N changes down the road and they'll feel like a pretty rare occurence with just minor short-term increases in block rate until things re-equalize.
WindMaster
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June 05, 2013, 01:57:11 AM
 #494

Yeah. The N changes were too fast.

I would phrase it that the N changes were fast during the first month of the coin's existence, but I wouldn't say it was "too" fast.  Too fast would mean, at least to me, that the coin got stranded at a high difficulty with an exodus of miners leaving it stuck that way due to extremely long block intervals.  YAC retargetting difficulty on every block does help with that issue somewhat though, but only to an extent.  So, I'd say YAC's parameters happened to work out fairly well, relative to almost every other altcoin released recently.


If someone were to make another coin based on this but have the N changes like once every 3-6 months it would work out much better for everyone.

If someone released a clone of YAC that had the same initial N=32 for 3-6 months, there's a very good chance I would end up owning the majority of the coins minted at that value of N!  Generally it would be a bad idea.  It was essential that N raise fast at first since it started so ridiculously low.  It could easily be true that more than one party implemented scrypt+chacha in FPGA's for N=32 and achieved massive hash rates, and I was just the only one that said anything about it.

Anyway, we're already at a point where N is remaining static for upwards of 3 weeks this time around.  There's only going to be 2 changes of N in 2014.  A single change of N in 2015, 2016 and 2017, then the next change of N is in 2020.
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June 05, 2013, 01:59:54 AM
 #495

low hash rate values aren't exciting for the normal user, they might mine it for a day or two and then give up leaving it to the server farms

or maybe their just unlucky and decide to mine on a day after an N change when difficulty hasnt dropped enough

either lots of pre knowledge or lots of resources needed. what can you buy in YAC that would need you to buy into the currency

LTC:  LKpJf3uk7KsHU73kxq8iFJrP1AAKN7Yni7  DGC:  DKXGvEbj3Rwgrm2QQbRyNPDDZDYoq4Y44d  XPM:  AWV5AKfLFyoBaMjg9C77rGUBhuFxz5DGGL
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June 05, 2013, 02:13:46 AM
 #496

If there is one coin that requires patience and long term approach it's YAC.

There's no pumps and dumps so no way to profit on that one.

It's hard to mine lot of it so there's no big money to be made from that one too.

It's sit and wait until services round it are built that will push the price up. It's obvious right now that it isn't the coin where you bank in a week unless you catch some of rare dips and sell for more later.

But these services are needed definitely as other coins that were mined by gpu miners are promoted and pushed on exchanges (for example, cryptsy could easily be called dgcexchange.com as it's almost official coin there) so there's no lot of interest for yac trading right now. It's a shame really as it beats all of them easily but that's how it is, most folks in crypto community are gpu miners so they're pushing the one they have resources to mine, it's not much about coin design.

But anyway, I can't understand any crypto investor that doesn't have few thousands of yac in his portfolio. Unless cryptos all finish in oblivion I can't see this one not exploding at some time.

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June 05, 2013, 02:51:54 AM
 #497

Wind master, how big job would be to make YAC being merge mined with BTC or LTC?

Someone already mentioned it earlier and I think that would really be a game changer for this coin.

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WindMaster
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June 05, 2013, 02:53:59 AM
 #498

Wind master, how big job would be to make YAC being merge mined with BTC or LTC?

Someone already mentioned it earlier and I think that would really be a game changer for this coin.

There isn't a way to merge-mine an scrypt+chacha coin in parallel with an SHA256 coin (BTC) or scrypt+salsa (LTC).  The hashing algorithms are all different.
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June 05, 2013, 03:13:06 AM
 #499

arrgh, shame

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Thirtybird
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June 05, 2013, 04:05:53 AM
 #500

I'd like to two my $.02 in here as someone who has mined YAC since day 1 (I too missed the launch by 8 hours) with roughly the same machines until today. 

Even through the various N changes, over a period of time, the only variance in your earnings is going to come down your relative hashpower compared to the network (and everyone is at the same N factor as you are!), and luck.  During an N change, confirmations and the finding of blocks are going to take a bit longer because the difficulty is high relative to the network hash rate, but it adjusts quickly, and gets back in line over a couple days.

Low hash rates are very un-sexy but still can bring in the coins.

YACMiner: https://github.com/Thirtybird/YACMiner  N-Factor information : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aj3vcsuY-JFNdC1ITWJrSG9VeWp6QXppbVgxcm0tbGc&usp=drive_web#gid=0
BTC: 183eSsaxG9y6m2ZhrDhHueoKnZWmbm6jfC  YAC: Y4FKiwKKYGQzcqn3M3u6mJoded6ri1UWHa
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