Bottlecaps 2.1 UPDATE REQUIRED - HARDFORK JULY 4 2014 to 200% Annual PoS

[ofeefee]

block explorers?

Can you add this to the OP
http://cap.cryptocoinexplorer.com/

[1715038266]

1715038266

[1715038266]

1715038266

[1715038266]

1715038266

[cryptmebro]

block explorers?

Can you add this to the OP
http://cap.cryptocoinexplorer.com/

I think the op has disappeared.  If this is the case we should make a new thread just before relaunch.

[presstab]

Preparing some blocks to test staking with...


I plan on sending a bunch of 1 coin blocks to myself, some blocks of 5, blocks of 10 etc. Secure the network and see staking in action.

[BitJohn]

block explorers?

Can you add this to the OP
http://cap.cryptocoinexplorer.com/

I think the op has disappeared.  If this is the case we should make a new thread just before relaunch.

All the original Bottlecap foundation folks had access to that account I passed the details to the new dev team.

[ElTomeko27]

Preparing some blocks to test staking with...


I plan on sending a bunch of 1 coin blocks to myself, some blocks of 5, blocks of 10 etc. Secure the network and see staking in action.

God damn Presstab You got a nice CAP stash!!!

[flound1129]

block explorers?

Can you add this to the OP
http://cap.cryptocoinexplorer.com/

I think the op has disappeared.  If this is the case we should make a new thread just before relaunch.

I have access to OP's account and can make adjustments as needed.

[flound1129]

After the wallet is officially released the PoS will increase until we hit the Max of 200%
Day 1 - 30 Max PoS stays at 1%
Day 31- 60 Max Pos increases to 50%
Day 61 - 90 Max Pos increases to 100%
Day 91 - 120 Max PoS increases to 150%
Day 120+ Max PoS will be 200%

A coin with 200% inflation is a good idea?
Why would anyone ever actually spend any CAP? With this system in place, they would be stupid to, rather than just sit on it and earn more.
So it becomes a network of people sitting on large piles of CAP, with massive inflation, and no actual use.
So why would it have any value? It wouldn't be used for anything, and more and more coins would be constantly being generated.

You would think that, but if you do some research into the existing comparable PoS coins you would find the answer is much different than you think. And it is either something like this... or CAP continues to waste away.  CAP needs to be fun, like it was made to be.  For example TEK has 500% annual PoS, but is actually experiencing pretty rapid price deflation.

Excessive amounts of stake might be great for the short term price but not so much for the long term price.

Let's try to keep it reasonable.

[tokyoghetto]

guys stop pumping the price, I don't have enough CAP.

Just hit 6999 satoshi.

[tokyoghetto]

After the wallet is officially released the PoS will increase until we hit the Max of 200%
Day 1 - 30 Max PoS stays at 1%
Day 31- 60 Max Pos increases to 50%
Day 61 - 90 Max Pos increases to 100%
Day 91 - 120 Max PoS increases to 150%
Day 120+ Max PoS will be 200%

A coin with 200% inflation is a good idea?
Why would anyone ever actually spend any CAP? With this system in place, they would be stupid to, rather than just sit on it and earn more.
So it becomes a network of people sitting on large piles of CAP, with massive inflation, and no actual use.
So why would it have any value? It wouldn't be used for anything, and more and more coins would be constantly being generated.

You would think that, but if you do some research into the existing comparable PoS coins you would find the answer is much different than you think. And it is either something like this... or CAP continues to waste away.  CAP needs to be fun, like it was made to be.  For example TEK has 500% annual PoS, but is actually experiencing pretty rapid price deflation.

Excessive amounts of stake might be great for the short term price but not so much for the long term price.

Let's try to keep it reasonable.

But long term the interest rate will diminish, along with the volatility.

Is there a long-term example in alt-coin crypto where high interest was harmful to a coin? CENT doesn't count for obvious reasons.

What exactly is excessive interest when it comes to cryptos. I keep stressing that this is not Government bonds or fiat currency. When CAP has a marketcap of 10 trillion dollars, then yes high interest is damaging. But we are dealing with low-cap, high speculative assets here.

This is why people are losing so much money with coins like blackcoin, the price just keeps dropping and @ 1% interest annually, anyone holding long term is risking never getting ROI on the coins they hold.
same thing with whitecoin, faircoin etc etc. Only time low interest works is when the marketcap of a coin is high. That is what high interest promotes, new investment. This new investment raises the marketcap, more people stake, PoS interest goes down, along with volatility. The result is a high marketcap coin with liquidity and low volatility providing plenty of opportunity for growth and ROI. This is also a desired characteristic of currency.

How are we ever to prove that high interest is a good thing or a bad thing long-term, if we don't attempt to prove the concept. Here is an excellent opportunity to do so and early adopters of this model will be rewarded handsomely for taking on all this risk.

[BitJohn]

guys stop pumping the price, I don't have enough CAP.

Just hit 6999 satoshi.

I think folks are just excited about the new team

[presstab]

Excessive amounts of stake might be great for the short term price but not so much for the long term price.

Let's try to keep it reasonable.

It needs to be higher than HBN and lower than TEK. I don't know what people have against high stake rates.  People unfamiliar with some of the high rate coins assume that there will be massive inflation, but the fact is there hasn't been - there has been price deflation that exceeds most other coins available today - and not just bubble.  Look at HBN - steady rise in price and a steady rise in market cap.

Also another point is that lets say the supply and demand for CAP doesn't change, so as the money supply expands the btc/cap price might decrease.  But if you are staking your coins the value of your coin holdings will increase faster than the decrease in price minus the PoW blocks that come out.  So if you are staking, you really aren't losing any value in a high rate PoS coin.

Also there is a hardcoded in reduction of stake rate every 64x increase in PoS difficulty. If the upperbound is 200% and the lower bound is 1%, then at 64x the stake rate would change to 100%.  There is always room to make the PoS rate change more aggressive, such as every 32x instead of 64.  Then it will be much more of a market rate.

200% sounds perfectly reasonable to me, but then again I am involved with a few PoS coins and I am comfortable with the economics.

Flound what are you comfortable with?

[tokyoghetto]

price just hit 9000 satoshi.

mind=blown.

I stopped buying at 3000 satoshi, thinking that was too high...I should have back-up the truck.

[flound1129]

Excessive amounts of stake might be great for the short term price but not so much for the long term price.

Let's try to keep it reasonable.

It needs to be higher than HBN and lower than TEK. I don't know what people have against high stake rates.  People unfamiliar with some of the high rate coins assume that there will be massive inflation, but the fact is there hasn't been - there has been price deflation that exceeds most other coins available today - and not just bubble.  Look at HBN - steady rise in price and a steady rise in market cap.

Also another point is that lets say the supply and demand for CAP doesn't change, so as the money supply expands the btc/cap price might decrease.  But if you are staking your coins the value of your coin holdings will increase faster than the decrease in price minus the PoW blocks that come out.  So if you are staking, you really aren't losing any value in a high rate PoS coin.

Also there is a hardcoded in reduction of stake rate every 64x increase in PoS difficulty. If the upperbound is 200% and the lower bound is 1%, then at 64x the stake rate would change to 100%.  There is always room to make the PoS rate change more aggressive, such as every 32x instead of 64.  Then it will be much more of a market rate.

200% sounds perfectly reasonable to me, but then again I am involved with a few PoS coins and I am comfortable with the economics.

Flound what are you comfortable with?

But we also want people to mine the coin and a constant downward slope in price means it will be less and less profitable to mine as time goes on.

As long as the money supply increases at the same rate as the economy for the coin, there won't be inflation.  If there's no economy, all people will do with their coins is hold them or trade for BTC.

If this was a pure PoS coin it would be different, if we're going to do this kind of staking we should probably discuss ending the PoW phase or at least phasing it out more quickly.

What I'm concerned with is ensuring the long term stability of the coin -- there's going to be a lot of pressure from speculators to do things that will pump the short term value (as you can see, that's already begun).

In order to generate interest in the coin we could also consider doing a limited time daily PoS phase like YellowCoin did.  They gave 10% stake per day for 7 days I believe.  This rewards the longer term holders of the coin while also generating new interest.

[flound1129]

price just hit 9000 satoshi.

mind=blown.

I stopped buying at 3000 satoshi, thinking that was too high...I should have back-up the truck.

The total money supply of CAP is only around 3.5 million coins.  This makes it very easy to move the price.

[murraypaul]

Is there a long-term example in alt-coin crypto...

No.
There is no such thing as long-term alt-coin crypto.

[presstab]

But we also want people to mine the coin and a constant downward slope in price means it will be less and less profitable to mine as time goes on.

As long as the money supply increases at the same rate as the economy for the coin, there won't be inflation.  If there's no economy, all people will do with their coins is hold them or trade for BTC.

If this was a pure PoS coin it would be different, if we're going to do this kind of staking we should probably discuss ending the PoW phase or at least phasing it out more quickly.

What I'm concerned with is ensuring the long term stability of the coin -- there's going to be a lot of pressure from speculators to do things that will pump the short term value (as you can see, that's already begun).

In order to generate interest in the coin we could also consider doing a limited time daily PoS phase like YellowCoin did.  They gave 10% stake per day for 7 days I believe.  This rewards the longer term holders of the coin while also generating new interest.

I think that PoW mining would be the least of concerns (at least for me) - whatever hash rate wants to be thrown at the coin really doesn't matter - dif adjusts.  Not a high risk of attack because of heavy network stake weight supporting the stability of the network.  Also PoW mining is industrializing right now anyways.

Going pure PoS would be a giant mistake.... Isn't the only reason why PHS is alive is because of the hybrid??

Long term stability would need to be dialed in via difficulty adjustments.  I am not an expert on this part of the code, but fortunately Tranz is.

By the way, right now on Cryptsy over 50% of discussion is about CAP. I think Tranz's ideas are getting a lot of people excited.

[Lauda]

This coin isn't even listen on coinmarketcap anymore?

[flound1129]

But we also want people to mine the coin and a constant downward slope in price means it will be less and less profitable to mine as time goes on.

As long as the money supply increases at the same rate as the economy for the coin, there won't be inflation.  If there's no economy, all people will do with their coins is hold them or trade for BTC.

If this was a pure PoS coin it would be different, if we're going to do this kind of staking we should probably discuss ending the PoW phase or at least phasing it out more quickly.

What I'm concerned with is ensuring the long term stability of the coin -- there's going to be a lot of pressure from speculators to do things that will pump the short term value (as you can see, that's already begun).

In order to generate interest in the coin we could also consider doing a limited time daily PoS phase like YellowCoin did.  They gave 10% stake per day for 7 days I believe.  This rewards the longer term holders of the coin while also generating new interest.

I think that PoW mining would be the least of concerns (at least for me) - whatever hash rate wants to be thrown at the coin really doesn't matter - dif adjusts.  Not a high risk of attack because of heavy network stake weight supporting the stability of the network.  Also PoW mining is industrializing right now anyways.

Going pure PoS would be a giant mistake.... Isn't the only reason why PHS is alive is because of the hybrid??

Long term stability would need to be dialed in via difficulty adjustments.  I am not an expert on this part of the code, but fortunately Tranz is.

By the way, right now on Cryptsy over 50% of discussion is about CAP. I think Tranz's ideas are getting a lot of people excited.

Of course they are.  The cryptsy trollbox is full of traders who would like nothing more than a short term pump.

[presstab]

Of course they are.  The cryptsy trollbox is full of traders who would like nothing more than a short term pump.

Hmm maybe this revamping CAP is going to be a harder project than one might have assumed.  I am going to go quiet on this thread and let the rest of the community submit their input to Flound.

[tokyoghetto]

If you want to attract new investors and breath life into this coin, then please understand the concept of generating alpha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_(investment)

The alpha coefficient (\alpha_i) is a parameter in the Capital Asset Pricing Model (CAPM). It is the intercept of the security characteristic line (SCL), that is, the coefficient of the constant in a market model regression.

\mathrm{SCL} : R_{i,t} - R_{f} = \alpha_i + \beta_i\,  ( R_{M,t} - R_{f} ) + \epsilon_{i,t} \frac{}{}
It can be shown that in an efficient market, the expected value of the alpha coefficient is zero. Therefore the alpha coefficient indicates how an investment has performed after accounting for the risk it involved:

\alpha_i < 0 : the investment has earned too little for its risk (or, was too risky for the return)
\alpha_i = 0 : the investment has earned a return adequate for the risk taken
\alpha_i > 0 : the investment has a return in excess of the reward for the assumed risk

Below is the reason why coins like Blackcoin will fail in the long-term. 1% annual return for 100% potential loss.

For instance, although a return of 20% may appear good, the investment can still have a negative alpha if it's involved in an excessively risky position.

All altcoins are excessively risky. This is why we need high interest, to mitigate those losses. This is why coins with high interest results in higher volatility. This also gives the potential for higher returns, which is an attraction to investors and traders.

This is based on the concept that riskier assets should have higher expected returns than less risky assets. If an asset's return is even higher than the risk adjusted return, that asset is said to have "positive alpha" or "abnormal returns". Investors are constantly seeking investments that have higher alpha.