Incoming Avalon News 8/9/2013

[Bicknellski]

It is pretty clear that the delay is planned and intentionally.
...
Avalon team is corrupted, untrustworth, scammy, selfish, and criminal.

It's hard to put your finger on intentions. What we know for sure is that the customer support has degraded massively from shipping the first units to batch 3 and the chips, and there has been no attempt to rectify the situation. This makes you wonder what the long term plan of that company is. It is unlikely that they will operate in the B2C space any further, and focus on B2B - otherwise they would try to fix their reputational damage at this stage.
They announced better tech - but given the state of affairs, it's likely not going to benefit the mining community as a whole (e.g. by offering competitively priced hardware or similar arrangements), but a chosen group of investors/entrepreneurs.

I think most mining hardware sales is going to be B2B not B2C anyhow... if you are not looking to go "big" in mining one will have to take your ball and go home at this point. But yes poor customer service and management is the problem here and likely they could careless at this point given the remarks Yifu made. Alternatively the DIY or chip only fabricators will also push the marketplace. Given Avalons failure I can't see many people wanting to risk it.

[1714889590]

1714889590

[1714889590]

1714889590

[Jutarul]

I think most mining hardware sales is going to be B2B not B2C anyhow... if you are not looking to go "big" in mining one will have to take your ball and go home at this point.

I slightly disagree. There will certainly be economics of scale and the fact that companies can actually "move" to locations with superior mining conditions. But I think there are a lot of opportunities out there for small scale operations, like the availability of limited excess power which allows a better cost structure than large scale. The question is what strategies the hardware suppliers will follow to place themselves competitively in the market and how they will try to reach and serve their customers.

But yes poor customer service and management is the problem here and likely they could careless at this point given the remarks Yifu made. Alternatively the DIY or chip only fabricators will also push the marketplace. Given Avalons failure I can't see many people wanting to risk it.

Yes a good point. Many "DIY" resellers got burned by relying on avalon and will want to switch to a more creditable supplier in the future.

[chsados]

I just found this in another thread.  It seems to document that one batch of Avalon chips was actually in customs for 60 days or so.

Ok everybody, as promised, I have an update on the Avalon chips shipment status. I just got off the phone with Gary, the account manager for this particular case and this is exactly what he told me:

This shipment has been on hold by US Customs in New York since June 12th. He said that these are extremely extenuating circumstances because the most shipments ever get held up by Customs is about 30 days, so this is WAY past that. He also mentioned that US Customs has been non-cooperative when it comes to conveying any communication on the status of this case. So Gary and his company, they're all having a special meeting next Wednesday together with the Director of the US Customs of New York.

So we should have more information late Wednesday night. I will update you as soon as I get briefed on the matter.

Hope this helps shed a little more light on this unfortunate incident.

The NSA is obviously putting backdoors in all our chips!

[Flying Hellfish]

We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive.  I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so

We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"!  I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves!  By Not giving them any more money!

It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns.  BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same.  Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer.

Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case).

[peterepeat]

Hi Yifu,
I have still not received my Batch 3 refund for order 6997 - I would appreciate if you could process it.
Thanks

[MinermanNC]

We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive.  I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so

We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"!  I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves!  By Not giving them any more money!

It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns.  BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same.  Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer.

Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case).

It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns.

Isn't that the truth! lol

[Bicknellski]

We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive.  I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so

We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"!  I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves!  By Not giving them any more money!

It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns.  BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same.  Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer.

Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case).

Better to work in a collective / cooperative manner and deal directly with fabricators. The individual has little or no recourse. I am not talking group buys I am talking proper collective / cooperatives where risk and capital investment is shared equally.

[wrenchmonkey]

But yes poor customer service and management is the problem here and likely they could careless at this point given the remarks Yifu made. Alternatively the DIY or chip only fabricators will also push the marketplace. Given Avalons failure I can't see many people wanting to risk it.

Yes a good point. Many "DIY" resellers got burned by relying on avalon and will want to switch to a more creditable supplier in the future.

Developers will go where the chips are. Whoever is able to get chips into the hands of customers/assemblers is who developers will develop for. The chips are the crux of the matter. Get chips in the hands of people, and the rest will take care of itself. 

[Flying Hellfish]

We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive.  I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so

We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"!  I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves!  By Not giving them any more money!

It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns.  BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same.  Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer.

Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case).

Better to work in a collective / cooperative manner and deal directly with fabricators. The individual has little or no recourse. I am not talking group buys I am talking proper collective / cooperatives where risk and capital investment is shared equally.

To me this is the crux of the issue.  I can't justify the current risk/reward proportions between the company and the customer.  I find it so weird that people happily fund a complete strangers start up for no equity, all they ask for (and atm there isn't even a guarantee they will get it) is simply a machine that may or may not provide a positive return on investment before it becomes obsolete!

Any vehicle that puts the risk reward proportions back the way the rest of the world works is a good thing.  I am trying to think of another market where customers purchasing a product (no equity, royalties or future considerations are received just the product) also fund the start up of the business, can anyone think of one?

[Stack]

 I am trying to think of another market where customers purchasing a product (no equity, royalties or future considerations are received just the product) also fund the start up of the business, can anyone think of one?

Anything on Kickstarter

[k9quaint]

Any vehicle that puts the risk reward proportions back the way the rest of the world works is a good thing.  I am trying to think of another market where customers purchasing a product (no equity, royalties or future considerations are received just the product) also fund the start up of the business, can anyone think of one?

Drugs. The price of equity in drug dealers tends towards the volatile. 

[Bicknellski]

We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive.  I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so

We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"!  I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves!  By Not giving them any more money!

It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns.  BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same.  Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer.

Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case).

Better to work in a collective / cooperative manner and deal directly with fabricators. The individual has little or no recourse. I am not talking group buys I am talking proper collective / cooperatives where risk and capital investment is shared equally.

To me this is the crux of the issue.  I can't justify the current risk/reward proportions between the company and the customer.  I find it so weird that people happily fund a complete strangers start up for no equity, all they ask for (and atm there isn't even a guarantee they will get it) is simply a machine that may or may not provide a positive return on investment before it becomes obsolete!

Any vehicle that puts the risk reward proportions back the way the rest of the world works is a good thing.  I am trying to think of another market where customers purchasing a product (no equity, royalties or future considerations are received just the product) also fund the start up of the business, can anyone think of one?

I agree with that assessment at the time there were no avenues for other than pre-orders... let us hope that changes but given the size of an investment now for something off the shelf I doubt people have tens of thousands kicking around just to get in the game. The rich in this will get richer regardless of the available hardware be it pre order or off the shelf. That is where I am thinking the game has really changed. There will be fewer avenues for the individual.

[erk]

We Miners, have to stop buying in to these ridiculous preorder fiasco's and stop supporting the Companies that want to use our Money to support their Large Scale ASIC Farms under the guise that they will send our Orders ASAP when Chips arrive.  I call Bullshit after seeing what has gone on this last year or so

We Need to stop giving them our Hard-earned Money so they can NOT continue to use us to Fund Their "Get Rich with ASIC Schemes"!  I'm sure there will be people who do not agree with me but having been burned myself and seeing the frustration of so many others on here I feel we need to put a stop to this ourselves!  By Not giving them any more money!

It's almost embarrassing but there are just to many optimistic people who are only to happy to become investomers and fund someone else's business and shoulder someone else's risk because they believe in big returns.  BFL and Avalon set the bar and were SO successful EVERY SINGLE other entrant in the retail hardware space (with the exception of ASICMINER) have done the same.  Obviously risking other peoples money while not giving up equity is a wet dream come true for a start up, what I think a lot of these companies fail to realize is that legally speaking there is a pretty clear distinction between a customer and an investor and that the law does not have a definition for an investomer.

Unfortunately it will be quite sometime IMO before we are done with full payment pre-orders (as much as I personally wish this wasn't the case).

Better to work in a collective / cooperative manner and deal directly with fabricators. The individual has little or no recourse. I am not talking group buys I am talking proper collective / cooperatives where risk and capital investment is shared equally.

To me this is the crux of the issue.  I can't justify the current risk/reward proportions between the company and the customer.  I find it so weird that people happily fund a complete strangers start up for no equity, all they ask for (and atm there isn't even a guarantee they will get it) is simply a machine that may or may not provide a positive return on investment before it becomes obsolete!

Any vehicle that puts the risk reward proportions back the way the rest of the world works is a good thing.  I am trying to think of another market where customers purchasing a product (no equity, royalties or future considerations are received just the product) also fund the start up of the business, can anyone think of one?

I agree with that assessment at the time there were no avenues for other than pre-orders... let us hope that changes but given the size of an investment now for something off the shelf I doubt people have tens of thousands kicking around just to get in the game. The rich in this will get richer regardless of the available hardware be it pre order or off the shelf. That is where I am thinking the game has really changed. There will be fewer avenues for the individual.

Nah, there is gaping flaws. eg. BFL were not a startup, they were selling FPGA hardware well before ASIC, secondly pre-orders are common, just look at the PS4 for example, or many game titles.

[bigbeninlondon]

Nah, there is gaping flaws. eg. BFL were not a startup, they were selling FPGA hardware well before ASIC, secondly pre-orders are common, just look at the PS4 for example, or many game titles.

Yea BFL is shit.  But PS4 and most game titles don't use pre-orders to fund their development.  In fact, I was under the impression that the pre-orders are generally run by the retailers, and not the manufacturer/developer at all.

[erk]

Nah, there is gaping flaws. eg. BFL were not a startup, they were selling FPGA hardware well before ASIC, secondly pre-orders are common, just look at the PS4 for example, or many game titles.

Yea BFL is shit.  But PS4 and most game titles don't use pre-orders to fund their development.  In fact, I was under the impression that the pre-orders are generally run by the retailers, and not the manufacturer/developer at all.

I often pre-order games from developers online. In BFL's case they are the retailer.

[itod]

And just over 24 hours ago here come Bitfury!!!  Solo Mining on their own pool at 115TH/s which gives them 20%+ of this lovely Bitcoin Network. https://ghash.io/

We need to be very afraid of these ASIC Companies Mining who are already Centralizing the Bitcoin network day-by-day.  They will mine while the difficulty is low to milk what they can, then will ship out preordered chips and miners when any kind of decent ROI time for US, who mostly paid for everything they have, has past.  Then we get to worry if we'll ever even earn back what we've paid for these ASICs.  Lovely isn't it?  This is what will happen to the majority of ASIC Miner and Chip purchasers who did have "Contacts" or were able to "Buy" their place in line.

At this point in time, w/o doing any extensive research, ASICMiner and Bitfury combined are about 40% of the Entire network right now!!   

It's amazing that you blame the only companies that are actually delivering something to the miners. Bitfury just shipped on time leaving hundreds of customers used to delays and scam everywhere surprised and thankful, see:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250249.msg3043629#msg3043629

And those are the bad guys?!?

[Bicknellski]

And just over 24 hours ago here come Bitfury!!!  Solo Mining on their own pool at 115TH/s which gives them 20%+ of this lovely Bitcoin Network. https://ghash.io/

We need to be very afraid of these ASIC Companies Mining who are already Centralizing the Bitcoin network day-by-day.  They will mine while the difficulty is low to milk what they can, then will ship out preordered chips and miners when any kind of decent ROI time for US, who mostly paid for everything they have, has past.  Then we get to worry if we'll ever even earn back what we've paid for these ASICs.  Lovely isn't it?  This is what will happen to the majority of ASIC Miner and Chip purchasers who did have "Contacts" or were able to "Buy" their place in line.

At this point in time, w/o doing any extensive research, ASICMiner and Bitfury combined are about 40% of the Entire network right now!!   

It's amazing that you blame the only companies that are actually delivering something to the miners. Bitfury just shipped on time leaving hundreds of customers used to delays and scam everywhere surprised and thankful, see:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250249.msg3043629#msg3043629

And those are the bad guys?!?

Not everyone can be honest and on time.

[Milan77]

It is pretty clear that the delay is planned and intentionally.

Back in May, ccmbc, a Chinese clone manufactur, told me that the Avalon chips would be shipped in Sep. He said he had contacts inside the Avalon team. Avalon team think if they ship in Sep, the early chip buyer will not lose money. I was surprised, and asked him to deliver message to ngzhang, shipping the order on time!  the feed back is weird. they did not promise time, but "we will make the early buyer ROI"

Later, we found that ccmbc has lots of chips, it is very likely that it is from the private market created by the Avalon team. This is an evidence that ccmbc was telling the truth.

Avalon team is corrupted, untrustworth, scammy, selfish, and criminal.

This is what I am talking about.

[bigbeninlondon]

I often pre-order games from developers online. In BFL's case they are the retailer.

My point was that in the mature video game market, the one producing the product doesn't sell it to the retailer until they can ship it.  The retailer is the one who collects and holds your money.  

[erk]

It is pretty clear that the delay is planned and intentionally.

Back in May, ccmbc, a Chinese clone manufactur, told me that the Avalon chips would be shipped in Sep. He said he had contacts inside the Avalon team. Avalon team think if they ship in Sep, the early chip buyer will not lose money. I was surprised, and asked him to deliver message to ngzhang, shipping the order on time!  the feed back is weird. they did not promise time, but "we will make the early buyer ROI"

Later, we found that ccmbc has lots of chips, it is very likely that it is from the private market created by the Avalon team. This is an evidence that ccmbc was telling the truth.

Avalon team is corrupted, untrustworth, scammy, selfish, and criminal.

This is what I am talking about.

He forgot to mention that Avalon mine in competition with their clients too.