Official Thread: AMT

[clenell]

The idea that they are making them within the next few weeks is promising enough for me.

Casirah: You got problems bud, seriously.

The other day you tell everyone AMT can get fucked, and now you are with this "we're rooting for you AMT!" - You keep saying they are legit, but don't offer any reasons as to why that is. You are just ass kissing AMT now in hopes they will send you the product you've paid for. I don't get it, you changed your whole tune after they posted a few pictures. It's really hard to take you seriously at this point.

they said they would refund my money but then backed out. they claimed if i removed my review only then would they issue a refund. I removed the review and can you believe this... THEY LIED! i have sent repeated emails asking nicely for a response/update or anything. the only response i have gotten is jim telling me he is going to punish me and "make (me) mine my money back".

well, fuck you Jim and issue me a refund. i was told by my attorney i needed to send a formal refund request - i did so yesterday.

isawhim... you are delusional if you think these guys are legit. i have seen the dark side of these guys. they are not "decent" people. they are crooks and nothing more. the best advice i can give you is get out while you can. they will screw you too.

Clennel: That is complete horseshit. Post the email of Jim saying that please.

I would like to know if ANYONE has received a legitimate refund DIRECTLY from AMT? I believe they are bound by law to give refunds if requested, and this whole 'selling your pre-order to someone else' shit sounds illegal as fuck.

here is the email from Jim...

You know what, I don't have the time to call Amazon right now because im worried about getting everyone else their orders. Here's what will happen, you will call amazon and get your negative comment removed, and once that is removed we'll issue you a refund. Because you need your money back Craig, and I know that. So once that negative review for a product that you didnt even buy is down, I'll send your refund back to you and you'll us alone.

Otherwise, we'll send you your miner and you can mine your money back.

Jim Brown
Sales Manager
Advanced Mining Technology
Office: 1855-866-6463
355 Lancaster Ave, Bldg E1,
Haverford, PA 19041
Jbrown@AdvancedMiners.com


I REMOVED THE REVIEW AND THEY IGNORED MY REQUEST FOR A REFUND.

[clenell]

Casiriahmine I thought what you were doing was great but you have gone bipolar on me now. you cant see the forest through the trees... good luck my friend. you will find out what im trying to warn you about. these guys are not square.

[ISAWHIM]

Ok... I think I got it...

Joshua Zipkin (Harrison Zipkin's son) Is ONE founder...
The other founder? Jim is friends with Harrison, thus making him a family friend. (To Jim)

Though, it is still an assumption that the Harrison mentioned, is "Harrison Zipkin", but through logical assumption by some of the description, it seems to be him. (He is over 60 now, I believe, no? I didn't see "old man" listed in the description of Harrison.)

So they had an office, obviously used for past things, which is "now" used as the staging area for sales. (As it was a staging area for sales for the other years, for prior business. So what.)

While securing chips and designs from Bitmine.ch (Which has been confirmed by Bitmine.ch, marking them as the ONLY USA distributer), they also designed their own board.

While building the miners, and realizing they obviously fell short of initial estimations for delivery, they ran into another delay trying to give us MORE, as they promised. However, that involved more than just throwing-in another board. Causing another additional design to extend the connection board and also the computer-case.

In all of this "trying to get the miners built as fast as possible", they have overlooked some details on the website, horribly estimated base specs that were non-conforming to "overall-consumption", and updated the historic news after it happened.

All this while battling trolls and assholes, who do nothing other than constantly bash AMT because of the poor choice they made, buying a known "pre order" for a device which "was not 100% known", and was "pure knowledgeable estimations", and was "100% of a risk to invest in"... Just like everyone-else had invested. But, due to buyers remorse and realization of bad choices, they now want the funds back. Funds which were freely given to the above stated realizations. (Funds deposited to "build custom hardware", which was used or being used to "build the custom hardware" that they requested.)

Demands were asked for more information, which were followed with more information. But not the information desired. When they ran into a hiccup, they came back again, giving us more information, about the shortcomings. Which wasn't what we desired to hear, but added more progress knowledge of the issue we asked to hear about.

As a business, they are getting personal, but again, as I keep getting hammered for saying... They are not microsoft or some big business. They are a small start-up, trying to deal on a personal level with us, and being personally attacked. Sorry, but if I call the guy at the gas-station some derogatory comment, I could understand him calling me one back. Just as I accept all the names Phin calls me, in this public forum. (I am sure I am deserving on some level, and like I said, I hold those names like a trophy. I am not here to please my peers, or to kiss AMT's ass. I am here for the purpose of finding out, from them, what the situation is, as they build my miner.)

Sure, I would have loved to have it when it was first estimated for delivery, at the estimated specs. Still, to date, no miner has ever matched estimated specs. So I was damn well aware of what I was getting into. For the price, it is still one of the best miners to have purchased. (Well over any other miners that are offered. Even by them.)

If this goes on much longer, this will be at the point of "beyond all expectations", and I will get my funds back. But until that point, it is still within my expectations. I don't see them attacking innocent customers. I do see them horribly defending themselves, which they just shouldn't even try to do, at this point. (Which I am sure they have stopped, because they are racking-up sales from all the ads I see running in other locations.)

Take your actual issues to official channels. Otherwise it just looks like you are actually helping them. This forum is hardly the "center of the bitcoin world, it is more like the rough-edge". (Looking at the list of actual members and members stats. No wonder so few return, after joining. This has got to be the most screwed-up community support ever. Makes bitcoin itself look like a horrible investment, if this was the first place I saw, related to bitcoins.)

[sirminesalot]

I have this theory about AMT...

1> They take pre sales for miners dating back to October 2013.
2> They quickly buy up the hardware and manufacture the miners
3> They run the miner themselves during this 'early profitable period' and bank on the BTC made
4> After many delays; miners are finally released to buyers to avoid possible refunds.
5> Miners are essentially vaporware and cannot ROI due to the delays. They will work, but will not pay for themselves - and getting a refund on this will be difficult since AMT can argue they fulfilled their promises with "limited delays that weren't directly their fault".

This would explain the lack of videos and pictures, they do not want us to know these miners already exist and are hashing them BTC since last year.

Theoretically: If a few refunds are issued, it's not the end of the world (to AMT) because someone else will take their place. As we've seen before, they will not directly refund the customer themselves: they just become a middleman between someone else buying the pre-orderer's miner.

I know it sounds a little confusing, but what I'm trying to say is: customers have paid AMT directly (wire transfer/BTC) but when it comes to getting a refund, they (AMT) says someone else must 'take over their pre-order' for a refund to occur. The original buyer gets their refund, and is essentially replaced by a new customer (the person who took over the pre-order). AMT doesn't spend a cent to refund the customer.

AMT is a SCAM: because they are using our money to fund their mining operation. We'll simply get the used hardware afterwards (that does work) and after months of trying to recoup our investment running the rig, find that it isn't going to break even. By this time, any kind of refund is impossible. AMT will do everything to make you happy and hold onto that equipment and not get a full refund, but it won't matter because it will be worthless in less than a few months.

So, that is my theory. Is it far fetched? I think it's genius actually if it could be pulled off. You are basically spending other peoples money to create a huge array of miners that make you rich, then you pass the hardware off when that earning window has elapsed and fulfill the customers' order.

Please let me know your thoughts on this possible theory.

I had the same exact theory.  My miner was supposedly tested before being shipped, yet it showed up with one of the boards having a bad chip.  I would think the QA process would be to make sure all chips on all boards are hashing.  What the hell else would you be looking for during this testing?  Turns on, check. All chips hash, check.  Ship it.  

When my rig arrived, it had 2 btc pools already in the config(Eligius and btcguild, i think), and Jim told me these pools were used for testing.  I got a weird feeling right about then.  

Could be miners are being "tested" on real pools, until they are no longer profitable, and then sent on to customers.  I know mine was tested on real pools, and OBVIOUS defects were not found during said testing.  

Glad i wasn't the only one to have this theory.

I appreciate you taking the time to read my theory and respond to it.

It is interesting that they ran your miner in those pools to test them.

I wonder if there is a way to track the specific hardware's usage on these pools/overall mining history in general.

[sirminesalot]

If this goes on much longer, this will be at the point of "beyond all expectations", and I will get my funds back. But until that point, it is still within my expectations. I don't see them attacking innocent customers. I do see them horribly defending themselves, which they just shouldn't even try to do, at this point. (Which I am sure they have stopped, because they are racking-up sales from all the ads I see running in other locations.)

I'm curious how you plan to get your money back, as they don't seem to be honoring refunds at this time.

The only way possible (as of now) is to find someone else to buy your order.

We can only assume whether or not there will be a honored return policy after they ship miners (or if they don't ship at all).

[Phinnaeus Gage]

With apologies for the carnival colored large bold text below, this point needs to be driven home further.

Joshua Zipkin could have easily stated that the 1254 West Chester Pike office he was using belong to his dad, oppose to presenting such as follows, and he probably wouldn't have gotten much of a shitstorm over it, but since he opted to obfuscate the truth, it was left to us to uncover it due mainly to him as the founder of AMT spreading lies as to why there's shipping delays after he adamantly stated six days prior that virtually all hands on deck were busy shipping, now put on hold due to some elements of the product not being invented (his word) yet.

<snip>

4. Walk up the stairs until you hit a door called "Safe", walk in the door and speak to a man named Harrison who is 6'3 and about 320lbs and he will welcome you and explain that this is an assembly and shipping point and the he is a family friend of one of the founders and that he was nice enough to help a start up get their feet off the ground.

<snip>

Harrison Zipkin owns a company called USAC, as shown here: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/harrison-zipkin/4/b51/30b (BTW, he has the date wrong)

Owner
USAC
January 2009 – December 2011 (3 years)

According to The Wayback Machine, on July 16, 2006, the following was on his website: http://web.archive.org/web/20060716121648/http://www.unitedsecurityaffiliates.com/wst_page3.html

United Security Affiliates Corporation
1254 West Chester Pike
Suite 206
Havertown, PA 19083

(866) 912-USAC

(610) 853-0200

That's one helluva leap to go from knowing 100% that his father (note no Daddy-O, cause I'm in a good mood) occupied an office(s) (a second floor has entered the mix according to this and on various other sites), located at 1254 West Chester Pike, to Harrison being JUST a friend of the founder of AMT, later learning that Josh Zipkin is the founder.

Question: What goes through a person's mind that he feels such should be obfuscated, considering all the pieces could be put together via the internet, albeit at great expense?

If Joshua Zipkin is capable of hiding such a mundane piece of information, one has to wonder what else he is hiding.

Make no mistake, for Joshua Zipkin knew full well how members of this forum can treat ASIC manufacturers because he said so himself in this video back in October of last year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFG_xuOl58Q#t=110

[sirminesalot]

Perhaps we should all stop for a moment and talk about people that HAVE received hardware (80/128/192gh models) and how they feel about the build quality and whether they could return them for a refund.

From what I've read, there aren't many people in this thread (other than Biomech) that are happy with the hardware. I'm sure Biomech is content, afterall his was free: but others like Khanundrus and Stan-O would probably love to see refunds for these. They both mentioned they had issues with the reliability and shipping of the miners to them.

If there are more customers out there of these models, please come forward and express your opinions of the miner you have.

These 2 reviews alone, speak volumes to me about AMT's QA, as well as overall experience. We can make up hypotheticals all we want, but at the end of the day the REAL reviews count.

[Biomech]

Perhaps we should all stop for a moment and talk about people that HAVE received hardware (80/128/192gh models) and how they feel about the build quality and whether they could return them for a refund.

From what I've read, there aren't many people in this thread (other than Biomech) that are happy with the hardware. I'm sure Biomech is content, afterall his was free: but others like Khanundrus and Stan-O would probably love to see refunds for these. They both mentioned they had issues with the reliability and shipping of the miners to them.

If there are more customers out there of these models, please come forward and express your opinions of the miner you have.

These 2 reviews alone, speak volumes to me about AMT's QA, as well as overall experience. We can make up hypotheticals all we want, but at the end of the day the REAL reviews count.

You are right that I can't complain abou the price. however, I would have noted any serious issues I had, if I'd had any. My machine was solidly built. nothing loose or disconnected. I have only turned it off to move it or play with it since getting it, with no non user generated problems. It appears this was not typical, but it is the case here.

The build was ugly, but functional. The packing was a disaster I do run it with the top off for additional airfloe, but even there I don't know that it's necessary. I am content with the device.

What bothers me is that there are so few of them in the wild, and that paying customers had to wait for a long time AFTER I got mine. along with the other things I have said.

[YourPalToots]

I would like to know if ANYONE has received a legitimate refund DIRECTLY from AMT? I believe they are bound by law to give refunds if requested, and this whole 'selling your pre-order to someone else' shit sounds illegal as fuck.

grumpybearsgirl

Fedex tracking # recieved from AMT for refund. 2.18.2014
check received from AMT 02.20.2013

[YourPalToots]

Perhaps we should all stop for a moment and talk about people that HAVE received hardware (80/128/192gh models) and how they feel about the build quality and whether they could return them for a refund.

From what I've read, there aren't many people in this thread (other than Biomech) that are happy with the hardware. I'm sure Biomech is content, afterall his was free: but others like Khanundrus and Stan-O would probably love to see refunds for these. They both mentioned they had issues with the reliability and shipping of the miners to them.

If there are more customers out there of these models, please come forward and express your opinions of the miner you have.

These 2 reviews alone, speak volumes to me about AMT's QA, as well as overall experience. We can make up hypotheticals all we want, but at the end of the day the REAL reviews count.

The list users who have recieved units can be found https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=463922.0

There aren't very many.

[Miramyn]

I would like to know if ANYONE has received a legitimate refund DIRECTLY from AMT? I believe they are bound by law to give refunds if requested, and this whole 'selling your pre-order to someone else' shit sounds illegal as fuck.

grumpybearsgirl

Fedex tracking # recieved from AMT for refund. 2.18.2014
check received from AMT 02.20.2013

I wouldn't say this counts as a refund directly from AMT. They simply facilitated a transfer of a pre-order from one customer to another. In essence they acted as escrow between grumpybearsgirl and whoever bought that unit. They didn't send money to grumpybearsgirl until they had received full payment from the new buyer. Essentially they, for an extremely small period of time, had double funds for the same unit.

They aren't issuing refunds, they are acting as an escrow agent to transfer orders

[ISAWHIM]

I would like to know if ANYONE has received a legitimate refund DIRECTLY from AMT? I believe they are bound by law to give refunds if requested, and this whole 'selling your pre-order to someone else' shit sounds illegal as fuck.

grumpybearsgirl

Fedex tracking # recieved from AMT for refund. 2.18.2014
check received from AMT 02.20.2013

I wouldn't say this counts as a refund directly from AMT. They simply facilitated a transfer of a pre-order from one customer to another. In essence they acted as escrow between grumpybearsgirl and whoever bought that unit. They didn't send money to grumpybearsgirl until they had received full payment from the new buyer. Essentially they, for an extremely small period of time, had double funds for the same unit.

They aren't issuing refunds, they are acting as an escrow agent to transfer orders

And where-else would the refund have come from.. since the money they wanted back was already spent on the hardware they asked them to build? (It would have come from the next person ordering a unit anyways. That is the same thing.)

However, a better business-plan, usually done by a larger company, would have gone as follows...
1: Place pre-orders (About 10% of expected hardware costs, not MSRP price.)
2: Collect pre-order money in a designated account, untouched. (For refunding)
3: Show loan-agent or business-investor, the "held funds", to justify a loan for building machines.
4: Build machines with "loaned money", and update that "miners are ready to ship". (When they are days away from being ready. This, to allow for delayed payment confirmations to go through.)
5: Pre-paid orders now accept the remainder of the payment-due. (Goes directly to pay-off loan.)
6: Items get shipped...
7: Word of mouth spreads... People buy more miners...
8: Participation in public forums, assisting those having trouble, or doubts.
9: Change status to "pre-order, full payment down"
10: Continue without loans...
11: Ship and retire...



Though, no ASIC miner that I know of, to date, has operated in that order... (Legitimate or not.)

I have seen some "group-buys" operate in a similar way to the above. Some have failed, some have thrived, some were just scams. (The scams never actually ordered anything. The failures ordered things that just became useless once ordered. lol, all those USB-stick miners, for instance.)

Would have been nice to order from a place that operated that way. But I have yet to find one that does. Nor did I expect this operation to go that way. I got exactly what I expected. (Still better than BFL, and on-par with KNC and CoinCraft.)

The miners are not quite "due" for a refund yet. They are acting within legal guidelines. You are right, they can't "refuse a refund", once one is legally due and justified. However, they can refuse to refund the money that they spent on hardware, on your behalf, that you requested of them... Or give you the unassembled miner and just say, screw it, you build it. Since you want your assets before they were assembled. (That would be ass of them to do, but completely legal.) (I would actually do that, if you gave me money to build you something, then started bitching before it was built. That is why I don't even attempt to run an assembly business, and listen to customers.)

If the delays were not legitimate, (which only a judge can decide), then you would absolutely be correct. Your refunds would have been due 30-days after the expected "delivery arrival"... (They might be cutting it close to legal issues, not actually posting the delays on the website. But, they have proof of mentioning the delays to us, following them on the forums. Which is not all the customers they have.)

I want this to just be over with... (with either money or miner in hand)... So I can review it, dissect it, and post it. As for the rest of the business-end... I'll just let standard public opinion of others, over-rule my own thoughts. Phin will take care of the rest, I am sure.

[ISAWHIM]

The build was ugly, but functional. The packing was a disaster

We gotta coin that term... UBF (Ugly but functional)... Not to be confused with BUF (Butt-ugly and functional)

New rating standard...
MINT, OK, UBF, BUF, WTF (Wanted To Function)

[clenell]

isawhim... you remind me of myself 2 months ago. all hope and no brains.

[YourPalToots]

isawhim... you remind me of myself 2 months ago. all hope and no brains.

now no hope and still no brains.






sorry. I couldn't resist.

[sirminesalot]

isawhim... you remind me of myself 2 months ago. all hope and no brains.

now no hope and still no brains.






sorry. I couldn't resist.

...and no miners.

ISAWHIM: That's right! I forgot, AMT was founded with absolutely ZERO liquid assets.

We're lucky they didn't drop a tray of those chips all over the floor, otherwise they would have claimed bankruptcy.

One would imagine a legitimate company would have enough cash on hand to deal with early returns, unforeseeable expenses, and things like that. I guess I just expect too much from a company.

BTW - everyone wants this to be over with.

[sirminesalot]

I'm pretty discouraged after checking AMT's website and it shows 2.4TH and 3.2TH models available April 1st through April 15th.

2.4TH - $9,999
3.2TH - $14,999

http://advancedminers.com/bitcoin-mining-hardware/

Is it just me, or is it far fetched to believe they will have these newer models ready that quickly?

I feel like whoever invests in these models will go through the same waiting games that we have. Probably another 'unforseen 3 month delay'.

How about this: we are all worried about these delays and lost ROI: aren't we candidates for a newer model due to these delays?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Apologies to by dwindling fan base for being outta pocket the last few hours. Here's why: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=495497.0

That said, allow me to get back up to speed.

[Syke]

Though, no ASIC miner that I know of, to date, has operated in that order... (Legitimate or not.)

That's why all the smart miners order from Bitmain. Here's how they did it.

1. Develop ASIC with company funds
2. Sell in-stock ASICs

[subseaguru]

I'm pretty discouraged after checking AMT's website and it shows 2.4TH and 3.2TH models available April 1st through April 15th.

2.4TH - $9,999
3.2TH - $14,999

http://advancedminers.com/bitcoin-mining-hardware/

Is it just me, or is it far fetched to believe they will have these newer models ready that quickly?

I feel like whoever invests in these models will go through the same waiting games that we have. Probably another 'unforseen 3 month delay'.

How about this: we are all worried about these delays and lost ROI: aren't we candidates for a newer model due to these delays?

they don't get any of my money until I see some miners get delivered. I have tried 2 times to purchase and told 2 times that they don't want my money since they cant accept it anyway. I don't want to put money up unless I know they are for real......