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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2756263 times)
marcus03
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March 13, 2014, 10:02:46 PM
 #44081

I should have local (trustless) signing online tomorrow (no password sent to the server). A big thank you to CFB, Antonios, BloodyRookie and Jaguar0625 for all their help with this Smiley
I want to make sure people understand that it is not "trustless" signing. Unfortunately, the way we are doing it, you still have to trust the server. You don't send the password to the server, but you sign an array of bytes that the server sent to you. How do you know that this array really represents the transaction you intended to sign? To be sure, the client would need to parse and verify it, so the client needs to know exactly how each transaction type should be represented as a byte array. This is not a secret, it is in the source code, but if you need to implement this logic on the client side, you might as well construct the byte array yourself, and not trust the server to do it for you correctly. So by letting the client be simple and lazy and let the server construct the byte array, you necessarily have to trust the server. Furthermore, you have to trust that the server response you received has not been modified in transit - and the issue of using SSL to talk to the server becomes important again.


Since, I've been there: Compared to implementing signing, getting the bytes for a transaction is childplay. I'd encourage client developers to make it complete and not use prepareTransaction, but implement it fully in the client.

EDIT:
As easy as this:

 public byte[] getBytes() {

        ByteBuffer buffer = ByteBuffer.allocate(getSize());
        buffer.order(ByteOrder.LITTLE_ENDIAN);
        buffer.put(type.getType());
        buffer.put(type.getSubtype());
        buffer.putInt(timestamp);
        buffer.putShort(deadline);
        buffer.put(senderPublicKey);
        buffer.putLong(Convert.nullToZero(recipientId));
        buffer.putInt(amount);
        buffer.putInt(fee);
        buffer.putLong(Convert.nullToZero(referencedTransactionId));
        buffer.put(signature != null ? signature : new byte[64]);
        if (attachment != null) {
            buffer.put(attachment.getBytes());
        }
        return buffer.array();

    }

From https://bitbucket.org/JeanLucPicard/nxt/src/1ff7dc8f579fed8804d6bb3fdda6a822fcd52162/src/java/nxt/TransactionImpl.java?at=master
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March 13, 2014, 10:03:03 PM
 #44082


The alternative is to get the price of running a node so cheap that nobody needs a reward to do it.   What we are doing here is creating a pseudo-POW to make up for perceived weaknesses in PoS.  If PoS is strong enough to stand on its own, then let it.  If we try to go pseudo-PoW to be a motivator, then REAL PoW will ALWAYS be a better alternative and who needs NXT?

Ricky, this is wrong.

This is not abut PoS vs PoW... this is about having a reliable network of nodes to secure the network...

You thought we were attacked when we started, just wait until we start to be perceived as a real threat...


I totally agree.  And I do not see how nodecoin funds nodes.  How does creating a free coin create real money that gets spent buying a server for a month?  Map for me the flow of money....
DOGE, AUR

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March 13, 2014, 10:05:04 PM
 #44083

So then why has my original suggestion been ignored about having nodecoins be redeemable for Nxt like a points/airline miles program? That way nobody disputes that the value
nodecoins have is in that it can increase my Nxt stake. The only problem I see is how to donate this fund and whether one of the committees will fund this. Any funding for this
will only be temporary because I can't imagine it would take more than a year for Nxt to be successful enough to not need nodecoins for incentive to forge.

I think going about this is just where the thinking goes wrong. Again, not attacking, but trying to illustrate a point.

Your post reveals a possible weakness in the NodeCoin idea: great.
But why does this need to be solved community wide?
That wóuld make NodeCoin a problem for Nxt.

If coins get created by a user, it's also up to the user to make it work, in whatever way he or she pleases. If that solution isn't good enough, the coin dies and fades away.
If not, it's viable.

Trying to shoehorn it into Nxt places the responsibility for it where it shouldn't be and opens a big can of ugly worms.

The creation of these coins is an open and free option. If it is truly so, then the execution of it should be the responsibility should be the creator's.

I am fully convinced that people can come up with a way to have the NodeCake and eat it.

It is a temporary solution I see nodecoin as. James made it to solve our forging problem that has been discussed a million times. Nodecoins would definitely solve short term
forging issues until we have thousands of businesses supporting the network for their own sakes. But nodecoin must traded in for a fixed amount of Nxt like a points system.
James of course should be rewarded well by one of the committees if this is approved

I believe nodecoin was exactly conceived as that. James can correct me if I am wrong.
It was conceived as a solution to a problem that we were and still are grappling with, which is why it ticks me off that James is getting so much flack for it.
He made something to try and solve a problem. I think we could at least appreciate that.

Be that as it may, and at the risk of sounding like a record: it's not just nodecoin that is the issue. What about AE and the fact that we have this option at all? Wink

NXTs as coins... NXTs r not coins, at least the creator of Nxt didn't want them to be coins. They r tokens that grant privileges to support Nxt. Deflation is not much better than inflation, "real" coins should be created on top of Nxt and be issued in quantities that keep their value constant. BCNext understands that this is very arguable, the community should decide if it wants to follow the path showed by him or stick to Bitcoin legacy with unchangeable supply of coins in hope to become rich by doing nothing.



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March 13, 2014, 10:05:48 PM
 #44084

I can't believe the debate I am seeing here ala nodecoins! Good job James for creating the first mine-able coin on the Asset Exchange!

Good job Jean-Luc for implementing client side transaction signing and confirming the need for SSL between client and server for security!

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March 13, 2014, 10:07:31 PM
 #44085


The alternative is to get the price of running a node so cheap that nobody needs a reward to do it.   What we are doing here is creating a pseudo-POW to make up for perceived weaknesses in PoS.  If PoS is strong enough to stand on its own, then let it.  If we try to go pseudo-PoW to be a motivator, then REAL PoW will ALWAYS be a better alternative and who needs NXT?

Ricky, this is wrong.

This is not abut PoS vs PoW... this is about having a reliable network of nodes to secure the network...

You thought we were attacked when we started, just wait until we start to be perceived as a real threat...


I totally agree.  And I do not see how nodecoin funds nodes.  How does creating a free coin create real money that gets spent buying a server for a month?  Map for me the flow of money....

Quite simply...
If no reward other than forging is needed then people need no incentive...
If people are not running nodes, no investor steps up and for example we have to use inf-com funds to pay for nodes then we will be in trouble after a time...

If the number of nodes in the network needs to be stimulated / maintained.
Create an order for node coins on the AE at a price people think it worth it...
People will run nodes to generate node coins to fill the order and redeem the coins for NXT

We could even trial this...

Do I want to see node coin as a new free floating coin - No
Do I want to see it hardened as a way to stimulate and reward people to run nodes - Yes unless there is a better idea out there.

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marcus03
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March 13, 2014, 10:08:38 PM
 #44086

Good job Jean-Luc for implementing client side transaction signing and confirming the need for SSL between client and server for security!

I've missed that. Could you point me to where he said that? Found it. :-)
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March 13, 2014, 10:09:49 PM
 #44087

Pls someone answer.  If in some time,we had lots of nodes supporting the network,could we just get rid of nodecoins??Or would they be part of Nxt in their most basic structure???
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March 13, 2014, 10:12:53 PM
 #44088


It is a temporary solution I see nodecoin as. James made it to solve our forging problem that has been discussed a million times. Nodecoins would definitely solve short term
forging issues until we have thousands of businesses supporting the network for their own sakes. But nodecoin must be traded in for a fixed amount of Nxt like a points system.
James of course should be rewarded well by one of the committees if this is approved

OK, there's 525,600 minutes in a year.  Say everybody gets 5 nodecoins per block.  That's 2.6 million node coins per year.  If their value under a "points" system is 0.01 NXT (completely arbitrary, who knows what the market price would be - but a "free" coin had better be worth very little NXT), that's the same as creating a new stash of 26,000 NXT per year - that's an inflation rate of 0.0000026%.  At the current nickel per NXT, that's $1300 per year raised for servers.  If NXT goes up by a factor of 10, that's $13K per year.

Let me just say, if NXT goes up by a factor of 10, there are PLENTY of stakeholders here (me included) that would pay a voluntary "donation" / tax of 0.0000026% to support the computer network that made it happen.
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March 13, 2014, 10:13:57 PM
 #44089

I should have local (trustless) signing online tomorrow (no password sent to the server). A big thank you to CFB, Antonios, BloodyRookie and Jaguar0625 for all their help with this Smiley
I want to make sure people understand that it is not "trustless" signing. Unfortunately, the way we are doing it, you still have to trust the server. You don't send the password to the server, but you sign an array of bytes that the server sent to you. How do you know that this array really represents the transaction you intended to sign? To be sure, the client would need to parse and verify it, so the client needs to know exactly how each transaction type should be represented as a byte array. This is not a secret, it is in the source code, but if you need to implement this logic on the client side, you might as well construct the byte array yourself, and not trust the server to do it for you correctly. So by letting the client be simple and lazy and let the server construct the byte array, you necessarily have to trust the server. Furthermore, you have to trust that the server response you received has not been modified in transit - and the issue of using SSL to talk to the server becomes important again.

Very good point. I completely overlooked that server can return malicious transaction bytes.
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March 13, 2014, 10:15:05 PM
 #44090

Pls someone answer.  If in some time,we had lots of nodes supporting the network,could we just get rid of nodecoins??Or would they be part of Nxt in their most basic structure???
Once issued, nodecoins will exist for 27 years as they are given out 100 per block.
nodecoins are NOT part of NXT core. It is not part of NXT basic structure.
It is simply an asset I created using NXT core.
anybody can do this

Clearly NXT is a very disruptive tech. It can disrupt itself!

There are literally more than 47 to the 10th power of potential assets that can be created. That a lot of assets. nodecoin is just one asset.

Still think nodecoin does not add value to NXT? Just the discussion it has created has now gotten a bunch of people thinking about how they can create their own coin and issue it on AE. Dont deny it, I know you are. I charge 2% of coins as they are mined, if you need my help.

James

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March 13, 2014, 10:15:49 PM
 #44091

Good job Jean-Luc for implementing client side transaction signing and confirming the need for SSL between client and server for security!

I've missed that. Could you point me to where he said that?

its due to the use of an "ultralight" client versus a "light" client.  The API that JLP has just completed allows for an "ultralight" client to submit  transactions to a node, where the node prepares the transaction and gives bytes for the ultralight client to sign.  So if clients implement this "ultralight" functionality, then not only is SSL a must, but then these ultralight clients must implicitly trust that the VPS operators wont screw them over and steal their NXT.  As a VPS operator, this worries me.  What if the VPSs I run get hacked?  Then I'll get blamed.

Contrast a "light" client that figures everything out on its own, but since doesnt maintain a blockchain, it submits the completed signed transaction to a VPS where SSL then is not that huge of a deal.
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March 13, 2014, 10:16:29 PM
 #44092


grandpa_seth
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March 13, 2014, 10:17:34 PM
 #44093


It is a temporary solution I see nodecoin as. James made it to solve our forging problem that has been discussed a million times. Nodecoins would definitely solve short term
forging issues until we have thousands of businesses supporting the network for their own sakes. But nodecoin must be traded in for a fixed amount of Nxt like a points system.
James of course should be rewarded well by one of the committees if this is approved

OK, there's 525,600 minutes in a year.  Say everybody gets 5 nodecoins per block.  That's 2.6 million node coins per year.  If their value under a "points" system is 0.01 NXT (completely arbitrary, who knows what the market price would be), that's the same as creating a new stash of 26,000 NXT per year - that's an inflation rate of 0.0000026%.  At the current nickel per NXT, that's $1300 per year raised for servers.  If NXT goes up by a factor of 10, that's $13K per year.

Let me just say, if NXT goes up by a factor of 10, there are PLENTY of stakeholders here (me included) that would pay a voluntary "donation" / tax of 0.0000026% to support the computer network that made it happen.

this is my point. This to me is an infrastructure committee bounty. And again James should be compensated well if we can implement this. Again this is temporary. Nxt needs to

pay for this support because it is an infant.
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March 13, 2014, 10:19:05 PM
 #44094

Pls someone answer.  If in some time,we had lots of nodes supporting the network,could we just get rid of nodecoins??Or would they be part of Nxt in their most basic structure???
Once issued, nodecoins will exist for 27 years as they are given out 100 per block.
nodecoins are NOT part of NXT core. It is not part of NXT basic structure.
It is simply an asset I created using NXT core.
anybody can do this

Clearly NXT is a very disruptive tech. It can disrupt itself!

There are literally more than 47 to the 10th power of potential assets that can be created. That a lot of assets. nodecoin is just one asset.

Still think nodecoin does not add value to NXT? Just the discussion it has created has now gotten a bunch of people thinking about how they can create their own coin and issue it on AE. Dont deny it, I know you are. I charge 2% of coins as they are mined, if you need my help.

James

Jesus.  We will have our own little coin market cap war inside NXT.  It's a recursive fight to the death.  I thought AE would just be a way to trade coins peer-to-peer and avoid transaction fees altogether.  As soon as you devalue NXT to be the transaction fee token instead of a 1st gen coin, it is automatically devalued to be less than the coins being traded on it.  This coin will self-destruct in five seconds...
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March 13, 2014, 10:20:14 PM
 #44095

Good job Jean-Luc for implementing client side transaction signing and confirming the need for SSL between client and server for security!

I've missed that. Could you point me to where he said that?

its due to the use of an "ultralight" client versus a "light" client.  The API that JLP has just completed allows for an "ultralight" client to submit  transactions to a node, where the node prepares the transaction and gives bytes for the ultralight client to sign.  So if clients implement this "ultralight" functionality, then not only is SSL a must, but then these ultralight clients must implicitly trust that the VPS operators wont screw them over.

Contrast a "light" client that figures everything out on its own, but since doesnt maintain a blockchain, it submits the completed signed transaction to a VPS where SSL then is not that huge of a deal.

It doesn't make sense to write what you call an ultralight client then.

The only difference between what you call a light and an ultralight client are these lines of code:

 public byte[] getBytes() {

        ByteBuffer buffer = ByteBuffer.allocate(getSize());
        buffer.order(ByteOrder.LITTLE_ENDIAN);
        buffer.put(type.getType());
        buffer.put(type.getSubtype());
        buffer.putInt(timestamp);
        buffer.putShort(deadline);
        buffer.put(senderPublicKey);
        buffer.putLong(Convert.nullToZero(recipientId));
        buffer.putInt(amount);
        buffer.putInt(fee);
        buffer.putLong(Convert.nullToZero(referencedTransactionId));
        buffer.put(signature != null ? signature : new byte[64]);
        if (attachment != null) {
            buffer.put(attachment.getBytes());
        }
        return buffer.array();

    }

(ok, a bit more due to the attachment bytes...)

Why would you not implement this yourself in a client and have a trustless solution?
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March 13, 2014, 10:21:14 PM
 #44096


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March 13, 2014, 10:21:47 PM
 #44097


It is a temporary solution I see nodecoin as. James made it to solve our forging problem that has been discussed a million times. Nodecoins would definitely solve short term
forging issues until we have thousands of businesses supporting the network for their own sakes. But nodecoin must be traded in for a fixed amount of Nxt like a points system.
James of course should be rewarded well by one of the committees if this is approved

OK, there's 525,600 minutes in a year.  Say everybody gets 5 nodecoins per block.  That's 2.6 million node coins per year.  If their value under a "points" system is 0.01 NXT (completely arbitrary, who knows what the market price would be), that's the same as creating a new stash of 26,000 NXT per year - that's an inflation rate of 0.0000026%.  At the current nickel per NXT, that's $1300 per year raised for servers.  If NXT goes up by a factor of 10, that's $13K per year.

Let me just say, if NXT goes up by a factor of 10, there are PLENTY of stakeholders here (me included) that would pay a voluntary "donation" / tax of 0.0000026% to support the computer network that made it happen.

this is my point. This to me is an infrastructure committee bounty. And again James should be compensated well if we can implement this. Again this is temporary. Nxt needs to

pay for this support because it is an infant.

I still say outline for me the path money takes from being created as nodecoin to paying for a server via Paypal.  Or Bitcoin.  Because NXT is still an infant.
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March 13, 2014, 10:24:25 PM
 #44098

Pls someone answer.  If in some time,we had lots of nodes supporting the network,could we just get rid of nodecoins??Or would they be part of Nxt in their most basic structure???
Once issued, nodecoins will exist for 27 years as they are given out 100 per block.
nodecoins are NOT part of NXT core. It is not part of NXT basic structure.
It is simply an asset I created using NXT core.
anybody can do this

Clearly NXT is a very disruptive tech. It can disrupt itself!

There are literally more than 47 to the 10th power of potential assets that can be created. That a lot of assets. nodecoin is just one asset.

Still think nodecoin does not add value to NXT? Just the discussion it has created has now gotten a bunch of people thinking about how they can create their own coin and issue it on AE. Dont deny it, I know you are. I charge 2% of coins as they are mined, if you need my help.

James

Jesus.  We will have our own little coin market cap war inside NXT.  It's a recursive fight to the death.  I thought AE would just be a way to trade coins peer-to-peer and avoid transaction fees altogether.  As soon as you devalue NXT to be the transaction fee token instead of a 1st gen coin, it is automatically devalued to be less than the coins being traded on it.  This coin will self-destruct in five seconds...

But all of these coins competing with each other are generating fees in NXT to forgers...

As time goes on, the value of NXT will only grow as more and more services and coins are built ontop of it generate more and more fees (thus increasing the incentive for people to buy and hold their stake).

NXT: 13095091276527367030
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March 13, 2014, 10:25:17 PM
 #44099


Coins, assets services- everything created on top of NXT strengthens it. Like some have said, NXT is an ecosystem. Do you want to rely on us just being a transfer of value? Just a currency unit? If so, then we have already lost. It is what is built on top of what we already have is what will make NXT come out on top. We have an innovative platform to work with that enables all of these great things. And people want to bitch when the innovation starts to happen. Good grief.

If we have 10000 people mining nodecoin from their Windows taskbar that is 10000 people involved in NXT that weren't involved before. Thats 10000 new nodes. Thats 10000 people that were not making transactions in NXT before. If nodecoin ultimately fails we lose nothing. But if it succeeds we gain many new users that we would not have had. People who can become familiar with what NXT ECOSYSTEM truly is..

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March 13, 2014, 10:25:35 PM
 #44100


Jesus.  We will have our own little coin market cap war inside NXT.  It's a recursive fight to the death.  I thought AE would just be a way to trade coins peer-to-peer and avoid transaction fees altogether.  As soon as you devalue NXT to be the transaction fee token instead of a 1st gen coin, it is automatically devalued to be less than the coins being traded on it.  This coin will self-destruct in five seconds...

Ricky - if you look at AE in isolation - maybe yes...
But AE is not / will not be all we have.

Why should people just use AE coins? and if they do - so what...

If NXT doesn't allow these traceable items to be made,,,, ripple, counterparty, eXO, etherium, mastercoin, NEM, nick nack paddy whack and who knows what other coins will come along with AE type capabilities....

We need to give people reasons to use NXT as a primary coin, not prevent them from doing something with NXT....

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