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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2760139 times)
rickyjames
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March 04, 2014, 08:03:45 PM
 #40261

So has anyone researched the potential regulatory problems that we have for Asset Exchange and/or Cross Chain Transactions? That is, do we run into issues in the US for being a MSB, and do we need to do KYC and AML stuff.

I'd be willing to do the research and draft up a whitepaper if people would find that helpful or informative. My hope is that we can find a loophole that doesn't kill AE before it ever takes off, and the whitepaper would be the community's position on the issue(s).

my guess is that as long as the people maintaining the systems for our temporary coin exchange arent in the jurisdiction, and that the systems arent operated in the jurisdiction, then theres no issue.

when true full decentralized CCT comes though, I dont see an issue at all.

This was my first thought as well. But why not letting him digging up something. Maybe, there is more than we can imagine.

At some point you change from cryptocoin to fiat to spend locally in the real world economy.  That is the point where the government steps in, at least in the US.  If the entity providing the fiat to the customer is outside the US, there is customer ownership of a foreign bank account, which is legally OK but immediately puts the customer under scrutiny.  If the entity providing the fiat is inside the US, it had better be a registered US bank.
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ZeroTheGreat
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March 04, 2014, 08:04:18 PM
 #40262

Sick and "exited" => the most unprofitable "coin" ever where forging isnt even an incentive for securing the network...?!?! Grin

Isnt nxt forging completely flawed?
There's no flaw, cos there's no goal of profitability. I'd forge for free, but redistribution of wealth from users to "keepers" instead of free-tx/burning looks better (just another business in economy, no harm). And it's spam-protection.

What about ROI%? Strickly dependps on activity of network. Low activity -> low ROI (~0.15-0.2% per month for now). And don't forget about dispersion. Health ROI%.

ROI% of mining of any PoW-coin looks worse, cos for keeping your share of profit (hashrate/reward) growing or even stable, u'd be in arms race. Stopped? Decreased your share. Unhealth ROI%  Grin
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March 04, 2014, 08:11:56 PM
 #40263

also this helps to protect against domain squatting. thats a really big deal since the person who acquires a domain is the monopoly provider meaning he has the leverage to charge outrageous prices as soon as he knows that someone wants it. if we didnt put a price on it than people would go crazy and reserve every domain imaginable and anyone who wanted to issue an asset would have to pay CRAZY prices. The net effect of making asset registration cheap would be that getting the asset you wanted would be orders of magnitude more expensive than if there was simply a cost for registering to begin with.

*edit* incidentally i really like the idea of having tiers of asset classes. that gives us the best of both worlds.

You're looking at a squatter here. Neither proud nor ashamed to admit it. Ok, maybe a little bit of shame, but I'll take that up with a future therapist if NXT ever goes lunar. Wink

I'm not sure if there are different 'types' of squatters. I've squatted aliases because 1) I see an opportunity and 2) I really have no other feasible way of expanding my NXT hodlings. None of my aliases were registered until after Dec 25, and some of the ones available were amazing.

How long have we been talking about Auroracoin? I registered AUR this morning. Squatting? Or people walking past a metaphorical bag of cash on a street corner? I'm asking this sincerely because I have mixed feelings about registering things I have no plans to personally use. With that said, on anything I have no plans to use, I'd never ransom them for exorbitant fees, or would simply give them away.

I'm torn on the AE fee of 1 vs. 1000. A fee of 1000 will stop people like me from issuing an asset; on the other hand, it will stop people like me from issuing an asset. Cheesy

It will definitely limit the number of assets I will issue (I hodl about 7900 NXT).

Having a fee of 1000 won't stop squatting. Mitigate, but not stop.

The fear, I think, is the people who are squatting will control assets to further their self-interest vs. that of the community/ecosystem. Hopefully, people that do sit on an asset/alias will realize that the strength of Nxt is in their self-interest and act accordingly.

i never blame people for responding rationally to incentives. if assets were free to register i would probably register as many as i could as well, while still disagreeing with the general premise. its just another example of the tragedy of the commons. my interest is not in blaming people for being rationally self interested, but in crafting an incentive structure where rational self interest leads to outcomes that maximize utility.

But you are addressing the problem in a way that restricts utility. If the AE is to be a free market, there should be no restrictions or constraints imposed on it other than the ones necessary for its safe and secure functionality.

 If you are worried that if making the fees so low that it is going to cause a problem with the number of issued asset making the AE a clusterfuck, I suggest that you plan on it being a clusterfuck anyway; because if it is truly successful that is what is going to be. Charging 1000 NXT issue fees isn't going to stop that.

The AE is a beautiful thing, symbolically, but it can't be considered to be a finished product as is. All of the reasons that I have seen for the fee for issuing assets being set at 1000 NXT are all things that could be and should be sighted as functionality issues with the AE, and if looked at this way are only problems that CAN be solved with out implementing any constraints to the free market.

The secure functionality of the AE is all we should concern ourselves with.
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March 04, 2014, 08:16:24 PM
 #40264

they say they can create a Goxcoin asset that could replace stolen Bitcoins. We can do it sooner Cheesy http://www.humint.is/goxcoin/

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March 04, 2014, 08:22:03 PM
 #40265

What would differentiate a "Class A" asset from a "Class B" asset?

perhaps we could limit Class B Asset to not being able to have as many units/shares.


I see.

Although I like the idea, let us clarify what our goal is with this.

It's an interesting idea.

I think we should all remember BCNext's vision for NXT and his thoughts regarding fees.  I agree with BCNext wanting NXT fees to be low.  Imo, 1000 NXT for asset name registration is too high.  I think you should be able to register an asset name for 1 NXT.  By setting NXT fees high, we are excluding people from NXT because they cannot afford the registration price.  NXT should be for everyone.

you have to remember that what we are talking about here is self issued credit. i think its fair to expect that people who are issuing their own credit have SOME assets in reserve, leverage is good and useful but i don't think we want people leveraged at 0 percent.

I don't understand why not? Credit can't truly be self issued anyway. anyone can say "trust me, I am good for it" the credit is issued when someone else says, "OK, I trust you." at that point the fee is just inhibiting private business, which I am whole heartedly against. I can sort of understand the spam argument as a reason for a higher issuing price, as this potential for spam would have a universal effect on the whole community, But I highly disagree with using it as a means of policing private business, and that includes the name squatting arguments, the scam arguments. I could agree with raising trans fees for the AE, but I am with 2kewl on this. How are you going to charge NXT users more than people who are importing assets through gateways?

By charging such a fee anyone trying to sell anything on the market starts in the whole that much.Today About $50 bucks. So If you have something worth $100 it is not worth trying to sell. Really you would have to sell $1000 dollars worth of stuff to get the fee down to 5%. 5% is to high. Lower issue fees give more people more opportunity.

Think of the applicable uses this would eliminate. For example, If I were to want to sell a comic book collection by individual books, I would have to put a 1000 NXT mark up on every book. Any low cost per asset and high asset volume business would have no place on the AE.

Higher fees limit the versatility of the AE in the ways people can use it, restricts the number of users, and restricts the demographics of people who can use it. There are so many creative ways to use this feature if it is not restricted by high cost.



ok so perhaps self monetized credit is a better way of saying it.

i mean how many of this one type of comic book would you have? you dont need to build a market for 1 or 2 items only. you just sell the one or two items on something like ebay. you only need a market in a product that you either produce or have a lot of.

also this helps to protect against domain squatting. thats a really big deal since the person who acquires a domain is the monopoly provider meaning he has the leverage to charge outrageous prices as soon as he knows that someone wants it. if we didnt put a price on it than people would go crazy and reserve every domain imaginable and anyone who wanted to issue an asset would have to pay CRAZY prices. The net effect of making asset registration cheap would be that getting the asset you wanted would be orders of magnitude more expensive than if there was simply a cost for registering to begin with.

*edit* incidentally i really like the idea of having tiers of asset classes. that gives us the best of both worlds.

I mean absolutely no disrespect, or wish not to come across as attacking you personally, and intend nothing that implies any question of your character Anon136. To the contrary I owe you a debt of gratitude as far as what you have done to offer help and info to me in regards to this topic. But for the sake of being brief and out of respect for the users of this thread, I will be blunt. When it comes to this topic you are wrong.

I would like to suggest that this topic and any conversation or debate regarding it be moved to a topic specific forum or thread. This and other basic fundamental policies and applications regarding the AE should really be afforded discussion at length. Out of respect for the common usage of this thread, and due to the fact that this topic cannot be truly debated with the attention it deserves without writing pages and pages, we should continue this discussion in a more topic dedicated place. It seems as though you and others have thoughts about this that can't be expressed in a relatively brief manor, and I know I do. This topic deserves and needs to be discussed at length. Could you set us up a place to talk more about it with out disturbing the common usage of this thread, or suggest a place if one already exists?

I think my argument is pretty much entirely laid out in that previous paragraph, valid and bulletproof. however with that said, even though my argument is strong and valid, there could be advantages that i haven't considered which outweigh the mentioned disadvantages of free asset registration, or there could be other disadvantages which outweigh the mentioned advantages to a price on asset registration.

In the extremely unlikely event that my argument is flat out wrong or in the more likely event that it is correct but overlooking other advantages and disadvantages that outweigh those described in my previous post, i would very much like to hear about it. I created a thread specifically for discussion related to the asset exchange, tell me about it over there. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=460343

Also remember that i am in favor of tiers of asset classes. This would allow for the market to naturally determine what the right tradeoff is. I would even be in favor of having a tier for (basically) free registration (atleast the cost of a regular transaction to prevent completely senseless spamming) just in case i happened to be wrong.



Great. You are a scholar and a gentleman.
Fatih87SK
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March 04, 2014, 08:31:30 PM
 #40266

This is how I understand Asset Exchange;


Jerical13
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March 04, 2014, 08:31:53 PM
 #40267



+1

I think there needs to be someone assigned to newb outreach. I can only imagine what it would be like for someone with only basic computer knowledge trying to stay up to date with the updates, editing batch files, troubleshooting, etc. Hopefully the new Marketing person will allocate some funds towards this end. By the way, I voted for brooklynbtc for marketing comittee as he seems like someone who recognizes this problem and will address it.


[/quote]

For Sure.
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March 04, 2014, 08:35:56 PM
 #40268

NXTio Peer updated to 0.8.5!! and forging!! Smiley
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March 04, 2014, 08:57:24 PM
 #40269

lol Wink

nxtcountdown.com

Fatih87SK
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March 04, 2014, 09:03:09 PM
 #40270


Hahahah

You should push the text "IT'S COMING: DECENTRALIZED ASSET EXCHANGE" with the countdown and the Youtube video video a little up.


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March 04, 2014, 09:06:04 PM
 #40271

Global Warming and charity mentioned on one page and all is well?



 Grin

I will admit i did take my time to craft that reply..

SN
S   U   P   E   R    N   E   T
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Uniting cryptocurrencies, Rewarding talent, Sharing benefits..

Blockchain Technology.

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March 04, 2014, 09:09:00 PM
 #40272

also this helps to protect against domain squatting. thats a really big deal since the person who acquires a domain is the monopoly provider meaning he has the leverage to charge outrageous prices as soon as he knows that someone wants it. if we didnt put a price on it than people would go crazy and reserve every domain imaginable and anyone who wanted to issue an asset would have to pay CRAZY prices. The net effect of making asset registration cheap would be that getting the asset you wanted would be orders of magnitude more expensive than if there was simply a cost for registering to begin with.

*edit* incidentally i really like the idea of having tiers of asset classes. that gives us the best of both worlds.

You're looking at a squatter here. Neither proud nor ashamed to admit it. Ok, maybe a little bit of shame, but I'll take that up with a future therapist if NXT ever goes lunar. Wink

I'm not sure if there are different 'types' of squatters. I've squatted aliases because 1) I see an opportunity and 2) I really have no other feasible way of expanding my NXT hodlings. None of my aliases were registered until after Dec 25, and some of the ones available were amazing.

How long have we been talking about Auroracoin? I registered AUR this morning. Squatting? Or people walking past a metaphorical bag of cash on a street corner? I'm asking this sincerely because I have mixed feelings about registering things I have no plans to personally use. With that said, on anything I have no plans to use, I'd never ransom them for exorbitant fees, or would simply give them away.

I'm torn on the AE fee of 1 vs. 1000. A fee of 1000 will stop people like me from issuing an asset; on the other hand, it will stop people like me from issuing an asset. Cheesy

It will definitely limit the number of assets I will issue (I hodl about 7900 NXT).

Having a fee of 1000 won't stop squatting. Mitigate, but not stop.

The fear, I think, is the people who are squatting will control assets to further their self-interest vs. that of the community/ecosystem. Hopefully, people that do sit on an asset/alias will realize that the strength of Nxt is in their self-interest and act accordingly.

i never blame people for responding rationally to incentives. if assets were free to register i would probably register as many as i could as well, while still disagreeing with the general premise. its just another example of the tragedy of the commons. my interest is not in blaming people for being rationally self interested, but in crafting an incentive structure where rational self interest leads to outcomes that maximize utility.

But you are addressing the problem in a way that restricts utility. If the AE is to be a free market, there should be no restrictions or constraints imposed on it other than the ones necessary for its safe and secure functionality.

 If you are worried that if making the fees so low that it is going to cause a problem with the number of issued asset making the AE a clusterfuck, I suggest that you plan on it being a clusterfuck anyway; because if it is truly successful that is what is going to be. Charging 1000 NXT issue fees isn't going to stop that.

The AE is a beautiful thing, symbolically, but it can't be considered to be a finished product as is. All of the reasons that I have seen for the fee for issuing assets being set at 1000 NXT are all things that could be and should be sighted as functionality issues with the AE, and if looked at this way are only problems that CAN be solved with out implementing any constraints to the free market.

The secure functionality of the AE is all we should concern ourselves with.

Trust me im a huge free market guy so you are preaching to the choir here. But if you will just leave those preconceptions behind think through the argument here.

Free markets work really well in competitive environments. That is the closer to perfect competition we have in a market the better the outcomes. Domain name registration is a unique case of what we might think of as a perfect monopoly. Its literally the exact opposite of perfect competition.

It's not about clusterfucking that i am worried. Its about people sweeping up every domain available , starting with AAAAAA through ZZZZZZ as quickly as they can inorder to be the monopolistic provider of the domain that someone else demands later. From their monopoly position they can charge outrageous rates. Its the competition that makes free markets work well, people cant charge outrageous prices because competitors will undercut them. But there can be no competing provider of a single domain name so that wonderful aspect of free markets breaks down in this particular unique case.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
Fatih87SK
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March 04, 2014, 09:11:36 PM
 #40273


Hahahah

You should push the text "IT'S COMING: DECENTRALIZED ASSET EXCHANGE" with the countdown and the Youtube video video a little up.



It should look something like this when I click on the website. The video is'nt cut in half now;

https://i.imgur.com/9bjhv3Z.jpg


EDIT: I see you already did it. Nice job! Now let's hope the dev team will give us a deadline so we can start the clock!

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March 04, 2014, 09:13:00 PM
 #40274

Well, it depends on your resolution. But I updated it for your pleasure. Wink

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March 04, 2014, 09:16:37 PM
Last edit: March 04, 2014, 09:29:38 PM by Fatih87SK
 #40275

Well, it depends on your resolution. But I updated it for your pleasure. Wink

Hmm ok. I was seeing the same at home and at work. So I thought it was the same for everyone.

Thanks!

Ps. It also looks awesome on my iPad

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March 04, 2014, 09:27:52 PM
 #40276

So has anyone researched the potential regulatory problems that we have for Asset Exchange and/or Cross Chain Transactions? That is, do we run into issues in the US for being a MSB, and do we need to do KYC and AML stuff.

I'd be willing to do the research and draft up a whitepaper if people would find that helpful or informative. My hope is that we can find a loophole that doesn't kill AE before it ever takes off, and the whitepaper would be the community's position on the issue(s).

I would like to see something like this.

Maybe, you could additionally explore the issue enlightenment regarding gambling addiction. I consider the AE as a place where many people can loose their money. We actually do not need regulation but ways of how to enlighten participants about gambling/loosing money etc. as some countries (e.g. Germany) require such thing in case of financial instruments.

I've understand that people can see  cryptocurrrencies as the loophole - well lots of crapcoin can claim occupy that space and thats not all i think we aspire NXT to be.
 
NXT should protect peoples privacy but also should seek to establish a level of trust, there may be areas where KYC and AML do not apply and there may be places like AE where frankly they will need to. WE as a community need to understand where these boundaries are or suffer the consequences.

I think we should value some intelligence on this and if you need any help proof reading, etc let me know.

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March 04, 2014, 09:32:13 PM
 #40277

So has anyone researched the potential regulatory problems that we have for Asset Exchange and/or Cross Chain Transactions? That is, do we run into issues in the US for being a MSB, and do we need to do KYC and AML stuff.

I'd be willing to do the research and draft up a whitepaper if people would find that helpful or informative. My hope is that we can find a loophole that doesn't kill AE before it ever takes off, and the whitepaper would be the community's position on the issue(s).

Please see my post here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg5242966#msg5242966

"Asset Exchange is a great tool, but will not succeed without service providers. The most important question is…
How to get legal FIAT out of the IPO?

Let me explain the IPO process using Nxt´s Asset Exchange through our example:
We have a limited liability company (ltd) in Austria with financial reports for the last two years which is accessible online. The owners are known; we will try to provide a reasonable business plan and are ready to attend Q&A sessions so we can wave away all doubts. We are planning to pay dividends regularly to our investors depending of income. 
We are not a startup, but for this project, we will need another office, new developers, and a lot of things related to the daily job which we can´t (yet) pay with Bitcoin or Nxt, so we will definitively need FIAT to make those purchases. We need legal FIAT that the company can spend.
I am pretty sure that after the story with Visacoin (and all the other scammers) most of us will only invest in companies/projects of well-known community members, where the transparency is given, so you know whom you are lending your money. And they will also need a gateway to get legal FIAT out of the IPO.
I decided to consult a tax advisor, a business consultant and a professional offshore consultant to get an overview about the possibilities. And I am more than thrilled about the news I got. Smiley

My offer:
There are several ways for a company to get FIAT out of crypto, paying only a reasonable amount of tax. But all the ways are going through a special company (with special license) that is made for this purpose. There are professionals who know how to set things up in a LEGAL way, without risks. Sure, we need to pay (a reasonable amount of) taxes, but for that, we can have a good night´s sleep without the risk of getting busted for money laundering, tax evasion or something similar. We can have our own company, earn money by charging handling and transaction fees, AND help the community to grow and evolve. I am looking for a well-known community member to team up with to found this special company. I am a member of the community since the end of November and am ready to meet in person, wherever we can arrange it. This is a big opportunity, I think, but I can´t do it alone. I need someone to brainstorm with, to share the ideas, the work, the responsibility, the win and of course the risk of this investment.
Setting up a company (anonymously, so our name will not be linked to it) will cost 15 000 Euro (around 33 BTC or 350 000 Nxt) INCLUDING all costs for setting up the company in the Seychelles, all the consultants fees, and all other connected costs for the first year. From the second year on, the maintenance costs will be around 6000 Euro + an annual turnover tax of 1.5%. Setting up the same company not anonymously would cost 10 000 Euro.

We will be able to help to convert crypto to FIAT, and also to pay the dividends (in a legal way in FIAT) to the investors through our company if the startup doesn´t want to bother with this. Something similar to what Havelock Investment is doing, except, that we will not look for projects and attract investors, as this will be done using Nxt´s Asset Exchange. We step in once the funding was successful and the desired amount of investment was raised by the community.

I´ve already spent around 500 Euros on consulting with the above mentioned guys, so I am very serious about this, but will not start the project alone, just to make this clear.
I will be in Moscow this Friday till Monday and will be in New York in the end of March if someone would like to discuss this in person. "
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March 04, 2014, 09:36:28 PM
 #40278

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26E0lFUP4qw#start=0:00;end=8:46;cycles=-1;autoreplay=false;showoptions=false

NXT mentioned briefly - AGAIN, at about 6:00...

I wish there was a heavy-duty-pro-fulltime-spokesperson that would represent NXT the way that Hoskinson does, or Larimer, etc...

I would like to hear a 1hour LTB show, dedicated to NXT, with Adam B Levine (he's the best interviewer IMO), with his know-how and great questions...

I'm looking forward to hearing Anon, but I think everybody would like to see even more firepower in this regard.

We need REAL people behind Nxt. Faces, associated with Nxt. Like the Etherium guys have. Otherwise we are fucked and all the smart "to da moon" people will be disappointed, because there won´t be real buying volume behind Nxt.
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March 04, 2014, 09:37:32 PM
 #40279

     I WANT YOUR VOTE!

  Vote BrooklynBTC for Marketing Committee!

Already done,,,, now assuming you get on this committee I want to see some NXtopia stories !!  before that brain of yours gets carried away with Marketing stuff....

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March 04, 2014, 09:37:45 PM
 #40280

Salsacz & marketing team.....pls look into this for AE: www.thunderclap.it

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