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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2755812 times)
chanc3r
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March 14, 2014, 11:11:25 AM
Last edit: March 14, 2014, 11:24:59 AM by chanc3r
 #44301

Where nodecoin becomes part of the fabric of NXT is if we as a community decides to offer it as an official ongoing reward to run a computer and support our network.
Once we do this, once we cross over this line, we can no longer call ourselves a pure Proof of Stake cryptocurrency.  

I can see how this perception could arise - the mistake (i have made it too) is  in referring to this as a poW coin - PoW is associated with miners competing with increasing computing power - this coin is a simple reward for doing work you were doing anyway so it does not affect the PoS of NXT and we should stop calling it PoW.

Quote
We will have changed the core definition of what NXT is if the NXT experience is expanded to include the awarding of nodecoin along with the forging of NXT.

It has been made plain in extensive posts that people WILL NOT be sufficiently rewarded by forging to justify running a NXT node and if the number of transactions arises and it starts to stress the home broadband quotas/bandwidths or the laptop performance etc people will keep turn their clients off. What will encourage people to keep their clients on?

Quote
Now, we are a very young cryptocurrency.  We have to build a brand if we are to survive.  Branding involves differentiating yourself from other brands; in our case, Bitcoin.  Good branding also has to be clear and distinct and simple to understand on a gut or subconscious level without having to do a lot of reasoning or logic to figure out what the difference is with a competing brand.

The best branding NXT has come up with so far is that it is green.  NXT uses far less electricity than PoW mining - megawatts less, and that's a hugely significant amount.  A simple way of communicating this "green idea" is "They're PoW and use lots of power; we're PoS so we don't have to".  Even at Texas Bitcoin Conference the Jane Sixpack who was sitting beside me in the panel got that idea when I expressed it and said it would resonate among the average public.  

Again node coin is NOT PoW - I've run 50/100 copies of node coin on a single sore VPS server alongside NXT and cpu didnt go above 3% and it was 3% before with just NXT running.

Quote
Now I am afraid - I have fear without proof - that officially structuring our product to give out nodecoins as a created-out-of-thin air reward to our users will compromise our brand.  This SOUNDS like Proof of Work.   In fact it is not, since the person doing it hasn't done one single thing they would not have done if the reward was not given to them.  They have done no extra computations.  They have burned no extra electricity.  Really they have just given to NXT Proof of Existence or Proof of Participation.  It's like getting a Perfect Attendance award in elementary school - a piece of paper that makes you feel good for something you should do anyway.  

But now if we do this we take away significant differences between us and our competition.  Now NXT officially gives out "award coins" out of thin air, just like Bitcoin.   Now we WANT people to think the award coins have speculative value and will rise in value on our AE through speculation and trading, just like Bitcoin.  We have created a way for people to get-rich-quick on NXT, just like Bitcoin.  So - how are we different from Bitcoin?

And if we do this we also have to add caveats to our story we tell to brand ourselves.   NXT is green - but their Proof of Work coins are dirty and our Proof of Work coins are clean, because they have to burn megawatts of electricity and throw away literally 15 thousand million billion perfectly good cryptographic block candidates that don't have enough zeros on the front end to win a prize to get their next block and win extra prize coins, and we give our prize coins away at the next block for doing absolutely nothing extra at all.  It makes us sound as crazy as Bitcoin.  

Compare that to "They're PoW and use LOTS of power; we're PoS so we don't have to".

It's not nodecoins themselves I have a problem with.  The ability to create new coins on top of the NXT blockchain is a brilliant piece of work, James.  I can see where that is of interest to many people and will draw many people to NXT.  It's the rationale that NXT has to give nodecoins away to help "secure the network" or "pay for the network" that I question.  If people are creating their own coins and trading them on AE, won't they have their clients open and be supporting the NXT network during that time?   As we become more successful and add the other services such as streaming quotes and AE  candlestick charts and all the rest so AE looks more and more like an "official" exchange, isn't THIS going to keep people interested in keeping their clients open so they can follow the ever-growing action?   Won't THIS support and secure the network?

I would go so far to say that instead of giving out free nodecoins on AE, we should cut NXT transaction fees to zero on AE.  Won't THIS bring more people to AE - making it a TOTALLY FREE exchange with NO service fees or house cut AT ALL?  Now THAT'S branding.  THAT'S a product differentiator.  That will bring people to NXT in droves:  FREE FREE FREE.  And it costs us nothing - it's just another feature in the client software, and a choice we make as a community on how to operate our coin, and an approach that DOES NOT COMPROMISE OUR STATUS AS A PURE PROOF OF STAKE COIN.

James, don't be discouraged.  You have done a brilliant piece of work that will draw many people to NXT.  As you say, though, this tech is so revolutionary and so disruptive that it has the potential to disrupt NXT itself.  And something with that much power we have GOT to have open conversations about and decide if we want to do genetic engineering on ourselves and alter our very DNA and mutate into something new.  

I say let everybody in the world create 1000 new coins and trade them with wild, crazy abandon on AE - but not NXT itself.  In my opinion, NXT itself should not do this.  Do not create a "special" extra NXT coin, and certainly not one that is then GIVEN AWAY.  The casino runs the game, it doesn't play at the tables itself.  Let the action generated by everybody else's coins being traded cause clients to be open and the NXT network supported.  Don't try to generate this support by the emotional draw of a "free giveaway" that tries to pull people in by playing to their greed and raise in them hopes of get-rich-quick.

In this section its clear you understand what node coins are and that there is a branding and perception issue - so lets deal with it?
 
In this section you have a really good summary of how much FUD & misunderstanding has been created by not properly discussing a topic in this thread.

We also have to recognise that at the moment - without community good will and community direct funding we will lose nodes and network integrity because FORGING just isn't and never will be enough for the average person.

People will create scam coins on AE and we will get a bad name for it...
People will try to 'get rich quick' and maybe NXT AE will get a reputation for allowing this.
James work does not make that more or less likely.

FUD often causes communities to pillory ideas and reject them, we need to overcome that.
We need to rehabilitate the news around node coin..
We can simply say 'no official community funding or sponsorship for it' it is what it is and it will survive or die...

We still need a way of securing the network - that problem does not go away.

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March 14, 2014, 11:14:14 AM
 #44302

VPS

Free Openshift + NxtKit
https://github.com/nxt-ext/nxt-kit

Paid VPS + Managed for free
https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=544&sid=835264139922f2db0a82732dacf827a3



bitcoinpaul
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March 14, 2014, 11:15:10 AM
 #44303

how would i go about running a node? its not possible for me to leave a computer running all the time... (renting a room and my laptop is LOUD) so cant leave it running.. is there anything else i can do?

raspberry pi / cubietruck.

cool il get on that one! Smiley

http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/How-To:InstallNRSRaspberryPi
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March 14, 2014, 11:20:39 AM
 #44304

There's also alias assignment; you'd have to check client side if the alias exists already, asset issuance - checking if name exists, minimum fee. Placing a sell order checking if you have enough of the asset, etc etc.. Do you do all this client side? Most of these require that you do an asynchronous call anyway (checking if name exists), some perhaps even more than 1 request. So I think it's best you let the server do all that, and you just verify what is sent back is correct before signing and broadcasting it.


It doesn't make sense to write what you call an ultralight client then.

Why would you not implement this yourself in a client and have a trustless solution?

THESE 2.  JLP, can you add an option to allow NRS to only process certain API requests from localhost?

Why? The prepareTransaction is good to get server side error handling (one shouldn't rely on client side error handling), when we get the response back, we can "unpack" it and see if it's the same as our input, if so, broadcast it out. You shouldn't disable this functionality.

Yes, if it's done like this it is ok from a security point of view.

On the other hand, looking at SendMoney.java for example, it's really just a check for enough funds. The rest of the checks in there is trivial and should be checked client-side anyway.

So I don't think prepareTransaction is worth the (asynchronous) hassle.
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March 14, 2014, 11:21:36 AM
 #44305

- lick us at facebooks and twitters and retweet us

LOL

U, guys, can't stop creating memes as I see. YUB, HODL and LICK!

Edit: Oh, I forgot about FOGRE...

It is right. I lick Nxt! We all lick Nxt!
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March 14, 2014, 11:21:46 AM
 #44306

Where nodecoin becomes part of the fabric of NXT is if we as a community decides to offer it as an official ongoing reward to run a computer and support our network.

Once we do this, once we cross over this line, we can no longer call ourselves a pure Proof of Stake cryptocurrency.  

We will have changed the core definition of what NXT is if the NXT experience is expanded to include the awarding of nodecoin along with the forging of NXT.

This is the key point of rj's argument. Nodecoin is not any "ordinary" coin anyone can create on top of Nxt. If it were, no one would have any reason to object to it.

Reasons why it is not any ordinary coin:-

1. It was designed to be used as an integral part of Nxt. At the heart of any crypto currency is the blockchain, and how it is secured. NodeCoin has been positioned to be the mechanism to (help) secure it. Anything, whose function is to secure the network will be seen as an integral part of Nxt, whether it is in the NRS core or otherwise. This alters, or at least can be perceived to alter, the DNA and hence the very identity of Nxt. Therefore it cannot be treated as just an ordinary coin anybody can build.

2. It is designed to power the key engines of Nxt (AE, gateways, NXTCash, NXTmixer, etc), which are projects funded by the community. "Nodecoin should be redeemable for accessing services (DAC, NxtCash, whatever)". So if a Nxter has millions of Nxt but no NodeCoins, he has to buy them just to uses the very services that are suppose to make Nxt unique? That makes NodeCoins to be more superior in function than NXT.

Edit: I hope I have got this point wrong!

3. It has been positioned by James as a non-profit, community project. This gives further credence to Ricky's point that "we as a community decide to offer it as an official ongoing reward to run a computer and support our network". If this has been privately developed by James as a random Nxter, this association will be absent.

If we agree that it is no ordinary coin for the above reasons, then we should consider Ricky's point about NodeCoin altering the very fabric of Nxt; and not just brushing it aside as just a coin anybody can create on top of Nxt.


NXTtechdevfund  GPG Key ID: 0x903BC112
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March 14, 2014, 11:24:28 AM
 #44307

@Damelon

i read your comment on reddit where you mention 4 companies that will ipo on the AE? i know of NMAC and DGEX but may i ask what are the other two and would anyone have links to more information about them and their ipo's? thanks

RHOS (Robin Hood Of Sound): http://www.rhosmovement.com/?lang=en

and

Nxtopia: a game built on top of Nxt. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=474535.0)

Smiley

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March 14, 2014, 11:24:38 AM
 #44308

Idea:

Don't know the feasibility of it though.

1) Inf-Com puts up 1,000,000 Nxt. in an account.....issues a Sell on AE....sets the price at 100 Nodecoin for 1 Nxt or whatever ....then if anyone who has been running his node has 100 nodecoin he can redeem it and get 1 nxt.

Nodecoins should not be transferable. Once they are redeemed they should be send back to the nodepool for collection by others.

I'm sure we can fix the Nodecoin generation rate so the program can run for x amount of time.


This is a rough idea....I don;t have the time to think this thru into more details.


It will allow new nxters to determine how much Nxt they can get if they run their clients for x amount of time.

 

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March 14, 2014, 11:33:46 AM
 #44309

Nodecoin will not allow you to circumvent Nxt fees, it's not built into core.  It's just an asset that you get for running a node, very simple. People will have to run Nxt client to get Nodecoin, so I have no idea why this would be perceived as bad for Nxt.  Nodecoin should be redeemable for accessing services (DAC, NxtCash, whatever), not for Nxt itself.  I don't see anyone trading Nxt for Nodecoin.  It gives us a good testcase for AE coins.  Thank you James.  Now let's help James with DAC, NxtCash, the good stuff!  

If you run a NXT node, you are supposed to receive NXTcoins and it is called forging. That is what NXTcoins are designed to do. If you think people running nodes don't get enough Nxtcoins, you need to fix it by increasing the transactions or compensate with NXT or btc. You don't compensate them with nodecoins because nodecoins are created from nowhere and almost no cost. Then you pay 0.01 Nxtcoin for 1 nodecoins. You devalue the Nxtcoins right here. All transactions (dac, nxtcash, Escrow service and so on) on NXT platform should be charged with NXT and NXT alone.

Imaging in the future, if there are 30% nodes are compensated by nodecoins, will you still be able to control the price and only pay 0.01 NXT for 1 nodecoins? No, it will be 1 nodecoin=0.3 Nxtcoin. It will devalue NXTcoins right there.

It is great to create coins on top of NXT. It is also BCNext's vision. But you need to do it with a business purpose, not doing what Nxtcoins are supposed to do. BCNext has mentioned that he tried to reduce mining for mining (selfish mining). We should not double reward this kind forging/mining for mining thing, especially at NXT owners cost. This is definitely not consistent to BCNext's vision.

+1.
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March 14, 2014, 11:40:17 AM
 #44310

how would i go about running a node? its not possible for me to leave a computer running all the time... (renting a room and my laptop is LOUD) so cant leave it running.. is there anything else i can do?

raspberry pi / cubietruck.

cool il get on that one! Smiley

Or use Android TV stick  Wink
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March 14, 2014, 11:42:39 AM
 #44311

Where nodecoin becomes part of the fabric of NXT is if we as a community decides to offer it as an official ongoing reward to run a computer and support our network.

Once we do this, once we cross over this line, we can no longer call ourselves a pure Proof of Stake cryptocurrency.  

We will have changed the core definition of what NXT is if the NXT experience is expanded to include the awarding of nodecoin along with the forging of NXT.

This is the key point of rj's argument. Nodecoin is not any "ordinary" coin anyone can create on top of Nxt. If it were, no one would have any reason to object to it.

Reasons why it is not any ordinary coin:-

1. It was designed to be used as an integral part of Nxt. At the heart of any crypto currency is the blockchain, and how it is secured. NodeCoin has been positioned to be the mechanism to (help) secure it. Anything, whose function is to secure the network will be seen as an integral part of Nxt, whether it is in the NRS core or otherwise. This alters, or at least can be perceived to alter, the DNA and hence the very identity of Nxt. Therefore it cannot be treated as just an ordinary coin anybody can build.

2. It is designed to power the key engines of Nxt (AE, gateways, NXTCash, NXTmixer, etc), which are projects funded by the community. "Nodecoin should be redeemable for accessing services (DAC, NxtCash, whatever)". So if a Nxter has millions of Nxt but no NodeCoins, he has to buy them just to uses the very services that are suppose to make Nxt unique? That makes NodeCoins to be more superior in function than NXT.

Edit: I hope I have got this point wrong!

3. It has been positioned by James as a non-profit, community project. This gives further credence to Ricky's point that "we as a community decide to offer it as an official ongoing reward to run a computer and support our network". If this has been privately developed by James as a random Nxter, this association will be absent.

If we agree that it is no ordinary coin for the above reasons, then we should consider Ricky's point about NodeCoin altering the very fabric of Nxt; and not just brushing it aside as just a coin anybody can create on top of Nxt.



You all have to understand that it is out of our power/control to decide if Nodecoin (or any other coin) will be built ontop of Nxt.
It is an asset. People will decide if they use it or not.

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March 14, 2014, 11:44:02 AM
 #44312

Nodecoin is ASSET!!! Don't mix with coin/project/whatever.
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March 14, 2014, 11:46:30 AM
 #44313

Idea:

Don't know the feasibility of it though.

1) Inf-Com puts up 1,000,000 Nxt. in an account.....issues a Sell on AE....sets the price at 100 Nodecoin for 1 Nxt or whatever ....then if anyone who has been running his node has 100 nodecoin he can redeem it and get 1 nxt.

Nodecoins should not be transferable. Once they are redeemed they should be send back to the nodepool for collection by others.

I'm sure we can fix the Nodecoin generation rate so the program can run for x amount of time.


This is a rough idea....I don;t have the time to think this thru into more details.


It will allow new nxters to determine how much Nxt they can get if they run their clients for x amount of time.

 

I like the idea, I think that funds could come from holders donation, they could donate to that account all nxt they mine every days and by this way way distribute all fees as if they are a pool, ore even using this idea: All earned fees from all accounts are automatically redirected to that account and then distributed proportionally betweenn al forgers? Could this be implemented in the nxt core? Is like a decentraliced pool, same as all fees are sent to the genesis account, couldn't be another account which receives all nxt forged and then divided among all nodes?
Sorry for my english, don't know if I explain myself or even if it's possible...
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March 14, 2014, 11:48:29 AM
 #44314

It's a bit of a disgrace they only pay 1 fee for sending al those hunderd-thousands of NXT. Sometimes I think the fees should be relative to the amount of NXT. Something like this:

< 10 000 NXT send = min. 1 NXT fee
10000-100000 NXT send = min. 10 NXT fee
100000-1000000 NXT send = min. 100 NXT fee
> 1000000 NXT send = min. 1000 NXT fee

In the future this could be, because we want to lower the fees:

< 10 000 NXT send = min. 0.01 NXT fee
10000-100000 NXT send = min. 0.1 NXT fee
100000-1000000 NXT send = min. 1 NXT fee
> 1000000 NXT send = min. 10 NXT fee
 

What are your thoughts? The big guys earn of the fees of the small guys now, so it's more fair if they pay more for transactions?

Fee should depend on data size coz it solves a technical problem (spam prevention). An attempt to make it depending on sent amount is an attempt to make the world more "fair". Don't mix technical and political/ethical problems, plz.

I agree.

But the fees are only required to prevent spam? I do not agree

but it depends on how these are fee distributed can distort meaning nxt

We want Nxt green? yes
We want Nxt safe? yes
We want Nxt decentralized? Yes

Such as the fee currently are distributed this is true? not

Currently Nxt is green? yes
Currently Nxt is safe? yes using VPS (trust points, centralized)
Currently Nxt is decentralized? No. Raspberri pi nodes have no interest in having its node active. There are few transactions and value of the fee is ridiculous because Nxt coin price is low
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March 14, 2014, 11:50:20 AM
 #44315

PrepareTransaction does error checking. If you do not use this function then you need to do all that yourself. Some could be done client side, but I wouldn't recommend that. There's also alias assignment; you'd have to check if the alias exists already (API call), asset issuance - checking if name exists, minimum fee. Placing a sell order checking if you have enough of the asset, (Api calls) etc etc.. Most of these require that you do an asynchronous call anyway, some perhaps even more than 1 request. So I think it's best you let the server do all that, and you just verify what is sent back is correct before signing and broadcasting it.

Also, if you think about scalability, there are better ways to optimize the API - for example, to get 100 transactions from a user you need to do 101 requests. 1 to get transaction ids, and then 100 to get transaction details for each transaction ID.


It doesn't make sense to write what you call an ultralight client then.

Why would you not implement this yourself in a client and have a trustless solution?

THESE 2.  JLP, can you add an option to allow NRS to only process certain API requests from localhost?

Why? The prepareTransaction is good to get server side error handling (one shouldn't rely on client side error handling), when we get the response back, we can "unpack" it and see if it's the same as our input, if so, broadcast it out. You shouldn't disable this functionality.

Im thinking about it from a network design and scalability perspective.  IMO the scalable way do handle things is with a light client.  A VPS will be able to support 2x more light clients than unltrlight clients.
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March 14, 2014, 11:50:40 AM
 #44316

@wesley dont know if you saw my post just another idea! Smiley

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg5684566#msg5684566

Good idea, didn't see, will implement Smiley
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March 14, 2014, 11:52:10 AM
 #44317

Nodecoin is ASSET!!! Don't mix with coin/project/whatever.

Nodasset!    Cheesy

Yes Smiley From now everybody should use nodasset instead of nodecoin, so there will be less misunderstandings in debates. Now I see one talks about wheels, while other talks about shoes. Smiley
Damelon
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March 14, 2014, 11:52:15 AM
 #44318

@Damelon

i read your comment on reddit where you mention 4 companies that will ipo on the AE? i know of NMAC and DGEX but may i ask what are the other two and would anyone have links to more information about them and their ipo's? thanks

RHOS (Robin Hood Of Sound): http://www.rhosmovement.com/?lang=en

and

Nxtopia: a game built on top of Nxt. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=474535.0)

Smiley

do you buy Nxtopia shares via giving towards the bounty or will it ipo on the exchange??

same goes for RHOS (i was this before but didnt realise we would be able to buy shares.. will it ipo on AE?

You are asking me questions I don't have an answer to yet Smiley

Both projects are still modelling things for their IPO's according to my info.

The things we are discussing right now will probably influence the form they will take.

If all goes well, RHOS should come with a definite plan soon, though.
The game may take a bit longer to prepare as it will need some more time to set things up correctly Smiley

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Fatih87SK
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March 14, 2014, 11:54:34 AM
 #44319

Nodecoin;


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March 14, 2014, 11:55:16 AM
 #44320

My expert view on the last week:



 Cheesy

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