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Author Topic: Devcoin  (Read 369125 times)
Icoin
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November 24, 2012, 10:32:28 AM
 #941

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I'm glad you understand that you would be throwing away the 90%+ part of the value that bitcoin gives to merge miners. Because of the waste of money I object to this option.

Mining is just a question of making as much value as possible for the miner and any shareholders. Once the money is made, then the profit can be sent as the cooperative wishes to the miner, shareholders, worthy causes, etc..

Sorry but i have to hold against it, what economy when there wouldnt be any miner who would mine for devcoin or even bitcoins ?? what do i throw away when i solo mine bitcoin? Is the profitability of a chain the reason to hash it, or is it the participation in this unique worldwide experiment only caused by profit? What profit the first miners made? How many miners made real profit? Doesnt do the centralized mines the profit?? No Hashpower but 3 -7 % mining fee?
Its profit the only motivation for running a mine and support the blockchain?? When we talk about profit, to mine for coins is not realy the right way to make profit. You calculate with the exchange rate and thats wrong, by now you prefer to as mainchain bitcoin only cause of the exchange rate? What profit made guys who mined i0 or ixcoin wasnt that allso a waste of energy?
Hypotheticaly spoken when devcoin or any other altcoin exchange rate would surpass the value of 1 bitcoin im quite sure you wouldnt object my proposal, you would be the first that would go along with it, im sure.
But we are dev's not dealers, personaly i mine for the sake of the chains, profit is not realy doable, but didnt you made a huge profit out of a dvc based biz? (Total dividends paid: 15 856 112.77 DVC since 18.8.2012) more then avarage 5 mio DVC per month! And do you think that was produced trough mining only (BTC or DVC)?. No it wasnt, that profit was made out of generousity! How many of the devcoin devs are generous?  Or you just mine out of profit? So why my BTC mining project gives away the power of 7 FPGA when only 5 FPGA was financed by the shareholders? MINING FOR DEVCOINS BRINGS YOU 10% of the BLOCK and you call that a waste of energy well i guess you are right mining for DEVCOIN is in this case a waste of ENERGY in GENERAL, AS MINER FOR DEVCOINS YOU GET ONLY 10% of the BLOCK!!!! WHY SHOULD I GIVE YOU MY HASPOWER you take 90% of it and what do i have from it as miner, doesnt you profit??  ... Is that just me that smels the incoherence?? Without the basis of a direct democratic principle, mining for devcoins is a waste of time, and with people who works against development, hinder or even speak against development (call it a scam) on the head and in the receivers list of the project, this project starts to become more and more uninteresting.

Why a mine protocol has to be dependent on profit?? Since the only cost you have is the hardware and electricity.
Profit is not my main motivation, and we arnt gods, we are devs we dont have to decide what chain is hashed mainly but we need to protect and guarantee development.
To be honest how many of you guys donored there devcoins for a higher purpose? Is the mind setup to generate blocks, to dump it then for centralized money or alt chains? Never forget even Bitcoin is still a experiment, and such oposition simply prohibits development in any direction. Profit shouldnt be the braker of an experiment. Or is the reason more simple, that you doesnt like to give me the bounty for a DVC Mine? Its all in this tread guys reread please.
Sorry guys when this proposal doesnt come trough it clearly will show me that greed is mainly active in this development and i gonna have to chose my next steps according to it.

WE ARE DEVS, WE MAKE PROFIT OUT OF DEVELOPMENT!!! THAT IS WHAT DEVCOIN according to me stands for

DEV ELOPMENT backed by
DE   MOCRACY

Please think about it.

But yes i take your objection, anyone else would like to join in pro or against ? By now it is 1 to 1


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killerstorm
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November 24, 2012, 11:33:27 AM
 #942

I've heard about devcoin a while ago, but started looking closer only now. It looks really interesting, but I find it hard to find up-to-date and coherent information, as wiki articles are often self-contradictory.

If I understand correctly, current policy is this:

Quote
Devcoin gives most of the generation money to open source revenue projects, like devtome, leaving only about 10% for bounties. Of the money going to bounties, only about 10% of that will go to any one project. So the largest bounty that can be funded is about 1% of the market capitalization of devcoin.

But is it actually the case? From what Unthinkingbit posts it looks like things are funded on case-to-cases basis.

Is there, like, a summary of what is currently funded? Like, 70% goes to such and such project.

I know there are some csv files, but it's kinda hard to "parse" them and figure out what goes where.

What's about current eligibility criteria?

Let's say I work on colored coins p2p exchange, is related to bitcoin. Can I get some devcoin generation share for this?

What's about projects which generate devcoin revenue, is there a list of bounties, or simply anything relevant is funded?

Please don't take it as criticism, but just as a friendly recommendation from an outsider who has a fresh look on things:

Make one page with basic information and summary, like:

  • brief description of concept and mission
  • what currently gets funded (summary, break down, examples)
  • capitalization, how much it money it generates
  • eligibility, current bounties

And specifically WITHOUT old and too detailed information.

I think only a very dedicated person would read 50 pages of forums to learn how it actually works, majority would simply ignore it if it's too vague.

So one good no-bullshit page might seriously help with devcoin popularity.

As I understand, wiki maintenance is one of major devcoin projects, so it shouldn't be a problem to find people to maintain just one page with up-to-date information.

colored coins proof-of-concept: private currencies, stock/bond p2p exchange

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November 24, 2012, 11:38:01 AM
 #943

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Let's say I work on colored coins p2p exchange, is related to bitcoin. Can I get some devcoin generation share for this?
Yes, you can!
Quote
So one good no-bullshit page might seriously help with devcoin popularity.

Since devcoin.org could never be taken serously,
devda.ch mainpage gonna serve exactly that need https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101559.msg1110708#msg1110708

  • Exchange Rates
  • DVC Stock exchange
  • Funded Projects
  • Free Devcoins
  • Devcoin "Ebay"
  • Devcoin Auditorium (bigbluebutton based)
  • Project documentation (redmine based)

But all this depends in this very moment, on the head of the DEVCOIN Project. If there shouldnt be found any democratic koherence in the head of the project, to use of Devcoin for the DEVDA Project is obsolete.

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November 24, 2012, 11:47:32 AM
 #944

devda.ch mainpage gonna serve exactly that need https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101559.msg1110708#msg1110708

While we are here, it's even harder to understand what DVB does.

After reading forum I understood that it is like mining bonds or stocks which pay dividends from some merged mining farm, with BTC converted to DVC. But mining bonds usually say what hash rate one share represents, I'm completely puzzled here.

Also it looks like DVB pays some bounties for something, but I do not understand how, why, and what it gets out of it. Description sounds like a description of devcoin itself. Or is it a "devcoin" on top of devcoin?


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November 24, 2012, 11:59:17 AM
 #945

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After reading forum I understood that it is like mining bonds or stocks which pay dividends from some merged mining farm, with BTC converted to DVC. But mining bonds usually say what hash rate one share represents, I'm completely puzzled here.

DVB is not just a mining FARM, its a DEMOCRATIC Principle according to corporate law, mining is just a tiny drop of the whole thing.
As DVB shareholder you can vote upon bounties for development. More Shares more weight in your Vote. DVB is independent of DVC and is able to even work with coiledcoins, if developers would support chains in general and not just see the profit, and call everything else then Bitcoin a scam.

Actualy there are 9 000 000 DVC spoken democraticaly (corporate law) for the development of a Bitcoinspinner like System for Android. Even here DVB wanna see decentralization, means the user can choose what server he wanna trust.

DVB funded allready ECA and the development of watercooling for Lancelot FPGA, all this is free avalable to everyone, even when ECA is about to start (First drawings from the GPL reactor are allready made).

I have no problem to call up an for an other bounty voting for coloredcoin, when you develop that for devcoin, of course its sha256 based so i guess Bitcoin will profit aswell. Thats the way i see the things.
Usualy people are puzzled, when they have to think outside the box.
Just to give you an example: when a prisoner that was 60 years in prison with no sunlight steps out (of the monarch corporate slave prison) he gonna be quite puzzled in the first moment aswell, when he gets free. DVB is cooperative based (with corporate voting) DEVDA is cooperative based (with cooperative based voting)* Both of this project serve just one purpose, DEVELOPMENT

*
corporate voting: is dependent on the amount of shares you have
cooperative voting: every participant has a single voice independent of the amount of shares he owns

killerstorm
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November 24, 2012, 12:08:16 PM
 #946

DVB is not just a mining FARM, its a DEMOCRATIC Principle according to corporate law, mining is just a tiny drop of the whole thing.

As DVB shareholder you can vote upon bounties for development.

OK, but what's about revenue? There is no revenue besides mining and share purchases, right? Or...?

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November 24, 2012, 12:11:47 PM
 #947

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OK, but what's about revenue? There is no revenue besides mining and share purchases, right? Or...?

We can build on the generousity of the developers. Developments generates revenue, its up the Developer if he wanna give back or just take.

My personal expirience is that when a developer gets funded usualy he/she feels a duty to the financier, so there is no problem with generousity Smiley

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November 24, 2012, 12:15:24 PM
 #948

Is the profitability of a chain the reason to hash it, or is it the participation in this unique worldwide experiment only caused by profit?

Perhaps I can answer... Generally, rationality is understood as following some utility function, which is not always monetary profit based. But it is opposite to doing things on a whim.

Forget about profit, you secure blockchain via mining. If you go from bitcoin+devcoin+... via merged mining to devcoin+..., you choose to not secure bitcoin. WHY? What value do you see in NOT securing bitcoin? Or is there some opportunity cost?

The only possibility I see here is pissing match incorporated into utility function. OR you're irrational.

If this is the case, other people simply would not want to fund your pissing match and your irrationality, they are simply not interested.

It doesn't make people undemocractic, it's just that both doing something and NOT doing something needs some reason.

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November 24, 2012, 12:26:36 PM
 #949

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Forget about profit, you secure blockchain via mining.

That is exactly what i try to explain.....
Quote
If you go from bitcoin+devcoin+... via merged mining to devcoin+

What difference exept the profit? If i Merged Mine for Devcoin as mainchain and use Bitcoin mm solomined doesnt have both chains my hashrate for security? Why should i work against Bitcoin? I simply wanna mm solo mine Bitcoin and use DEVCOIN as the mainchain. Only cause an exchange made the exchangerate i cant do that? Do you think that to mine for 25 BTC brings profit, so why should i do that as main objective, is that rational ?

If there would be a pure DVC mine open, arnt the miners free to chose if they want to do it or not? But you allready gave the answer:
Quote
If this is the case, other people simply would not want to fund your pissing match and your irrationality, they are simply not interested.
I have no problem with other sha256 based chains, i just have a problem with some all mighty god chosen devs, - to use your terminology - they piss me off!
You know what is realy irrational? When a slave in prison thinks he is free and protects his prison cause of that.


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November 24, 2012, 12:28:31 PM
 #950

Bitcoin cannot be merged mined as a secondary chain.

That seems to basically be deliberate opposition to people's ability to simply and easily keep all the secondary chains up to date with the latest fixes and code improvements in the bitcoin codebase.

So it looks like it is the bitcoiners who are the ones acting out of spite or hostility or somesuch, they seem determined to try to sabotage the whole altcoin field.

Next time someone figures out how to apply the merged mining as a secondary chain patches to the latest bitcoin to update some secondary chain, the patches should be incorporated into the mainline bitcoin code, hopefully along with also abstracting all visible to the user names and images identifying the specific chain/coin into one place for easy changing of that element of the cosmetics.

p2pool gives only the first/main/primary chain the benefits of mining as part of a pool, the rest of the chains in your merge are in effect solo mined. Thus being able to choose any of the chains as the primary one would let miners choose which chain they want the smoothed out variance provided by the pool on, the rest being a crapshoot as to whether a block will end up getting found in any given year or month or week or day or whatever.

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November 24, 2012, 12:31:31 PM
 #951

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Bitcoin cannot be merged mined as a secondary chain.

That seems to basically be deliberate opposition to people's ability to simply and easily keep all the secondary chains up to date the the latests fixes and code improvements in the bitcoin codebase.

So it looks like it is the bitcoiners who are the ones acting out of spite or hostility or somesuch, they seem determined to try to sabotage the whole altcoin field.

Next time someone figures out how to apply the merged mining as a secondary chain patches to the latest bitcoin to update some secondary chain, the patches should be incorporated into the mainline bitcoin code, hopefully along with also abstracting all visible to the user names and images identifying the specific chain/coin into one place for easy changing of that element of the cosmetics.
1+

Did the actual developers of Bitcoin realy developed bitcoin or arnt they in the same position as Devcoin developers?? According to the behave of some Bitcoin developer alt chains are a scam cause the Bitcoin Developer say so, cause we took a code and altered it and we not stay on testnet like some Devs would like to see it? But what are then Bitcoin Developers, exept Satoshi Nakamoto and Serious-M?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OztVYTS_Ei8

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November 24, 2012, 05:30:03 PM
 #952

Bitcoin users want stability, and they will likely object to making Bitcoin merge-mine-able since it gives no benefits, only potential problems. Bitcoin developers will do what users want.

So if you mine devcoin as a primary chain, you're mining without bitcoin. And it's just impractical.

If the problem is that you want devcoin p2pool, maybe there is a way to p2pool it in mm setup? Is this really a fundamental limitation, or it would just make software more complex?

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November 24, 2012, 06:59:12 PM
 #953

Bitcoin users want stability, and they will likely object to making Bitcoin merge-mine-able since it gives no benefits, only potential problems. Bitcoin developers will do what users want.
One of the many "planned" changes when the day comes that we must break compatibility, is to make Bitcoin merged-minable (though not compatible with the existing merged-mining system). But none of these changes so far has been deemed important enough by the developer group to even suggest (to users) breaking compatiblity with old clients.

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November 24, 2012, 08:10:44 PM
 #954

Is Devcoin dead yet?

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November 24, 2012, 08:26:35 PM
 #955

From wiki:

Quote
At the time of this writing, November 14, 2012, the devcoin market capitalization is about 0.000002 BTC/DVC * 50,000 devcoins/block * 65,759 blocks * 11 USD/bitcoin = 72,000 USD.

BTW I wonder how that happened, wiki documents sharp rise in capitalization: 300 BTC in January 2012, 3,809 BTC August 18, 2012.

So who buys devcoins?

Wiki says:

Quote
Devcoin would primarily fund open source projects whose revenue would be converted to devcoins, and secondarily fund open source developers with no expectation of future revenue. This has been successful,

What are the largest contributors? devtome.org?

I really want to know more about economics of this...

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November 24, 2012, 08:32:36 PM
 #956

From wiki:

Quote
At the time of this writing, November 14, 2012, the devcoin market capitalization is about 0.000002 BTC/DVC * 50,000 devcoins/block * 65,759 blocks * 11 USD/bitcoin = 72,000 USD.

BTW I wonder how that happened, wiki documents sharp rise in capitalization: 300 BTC in January 2012, 3,809 BTC August 18, 2012.

So who buys devcoins?

Wiki says:

Quote
Devcoin would primarily fund open source projects whose revenue would be converted to devcoins, and secondarily fund open source developers with no expectation of future revenue. This has been successful,

What are the largest contributors? devtome.org?

I really want to know more about economics of this...

People have been generously contributing to the project with time and btc.

BTC 1JASiNZxmAN1WBS4dmGEDoPpzN3GV7dnjX DVC 1CxxZzqcy7YEVXfCn5KvgRxjeWvPpniK3                     Earn Devcoins Devtome.com
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November 24, 2012, 10:40:43 PM
 #957

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I really want to know more about economics of this...
Bitcoin needs to gain the market attendence by Bitcoin itsef.

Devcoin supports Developers. They develop cutting edge products GPL on a real basis.

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November 25, 2012, 03:26:13 PM
 #958

When the block reward halves we should see a overnight doubling in most of the currencies in value hopefully.

BTC 1JASiNZxmAN1WBS4dmGEDoPpzN3GV7dnjX DVC 1CxxZzqcy7YEVXfCn5KvgRxjeWvPpniK3                     Earn Devcoins Devtome.com
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November 25, 2012, 04:01:21 PM
 #959

Bitcoin users want stability, and they will likely object to making Bitcoin merge-mine-able since it gives no benefits, only potential problems. Bitcoin developers will do what users want.
One of the many "planned" changes when the day comes that we must break compatibility, is to make Bitcoin merged-minable (though not compatible with the existing merged-mining system). But none of these changes so far has been deemed important enough by the developer group to even suggest (to users) breaking compatiblity with old clients.

Ahhh, I had forgotten that applying the merged mining patches is a breaking change! Apologies, and thanks for reminding me.

-MarkM-

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November 25, 2012, 04:08:28 PM
 #960

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When the block reward halves we should see a overnight doubling in most of the currencies in value hopefully.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVydUm-3-j4

I officialy request to add allten (BITSAFE) https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=127587.0 to the receiver after a successfull bounty

Unthinkingbit are

John Tobey https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=22785.0
and
ngzhang https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110090.0 , https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=79835.0

allready listed?
Could you please contact them?

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