[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency

[aigeezer]

...at some point, the number of new master nodes will level off, as the ROI decreases and the required investment keeps going up. THis will dramatically reduce the demand for Dash, most likely resulting in a price drop. Now you have a problem. A lot of capital was invested in those nodes, owned by a lot of people who really dont care about Dash but did expect a high ROI. If just a tiny fraction of them begin pulling out, the price just has to tumble and cause a snowball effect, and I honestly dont see where the demand is going to come from to keep the price from utterly collapsing.

OH MY! THAT'S SO SCARY!

I wish I had checked the post history before I bit and engaged with the poster. Won't happen again.         

[1715290314]

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[1715290314]

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[kointrend]

The sky will falling upon Dash!

OH MY! THAT'S SO SCARY!

I wish I had checked the post history before I bit and engaged with the poster. Won't happen again.         

Don't worry, your comments are always highly appreciated! 

[toknormal]

But once the price starts going down for whatever reason, like a BTC rally, that ROI goes up in smoke and those same master node operators will run to the exits. Because they own so much of the currency, cause a snowball effect.  Especially when bitcoin is rallying

You've described only one segment of a cyclical model - a scenario which has already occurred several times.

The bits you left out are the part of the cycle where the supply-demand curve balances out and re-asserts itself again. If you look at a 3-day chart of Dash since its launch you'll see that we've had about 3-4 full cycles of saturation/sell-off/re-establish demand so far and I've described this more fully here in terms of a dynamic interaction between two segments of the coin supply - a "trading" component and a "reserve" component on which holders earn interest.

Sure, on top of that you have a risk asset effect against other currencies, but ROI on fixed income assets is usually measured in the native currency. They are two separate investment strategies - one accumulates Dash, the other uses Dash as a vehicle to accumulate bitcoin. Both are in effect and you can't use one to invalidate the other.

P.S. Your point about nodecount tanking the price when it flattens off doesn't square either. Trading is a 2 way street and also consists of 2 distinct markets: those investing in a reserve market for a fixed returns and those investing for a risk-return (buy low sell high). ALL of that trading has to come out of the blue segment of the coin supply in that diagram, which becomes ever smaller as the nodecount increases. The flattening off doesn't mean traders stop investing, it just means the supply's reached saturation. Trading will continue to occur, just on a much tinier portion of the coin supply.

[TanteStefana2]

I mine all kinds of shit coins, but I dont believe or invest in them. And if mining coin X is no longer profitable, I switch to something else. Expect a similar behavior from master node operators.

Not everyone sees the world as you do.

Day-trading and coin-hopping are my idea of a wasted life. Busy, busy, busy, pushing all those tokens around. To each his own.                

Im doing neither myself. My point is, I invested capital in mining equipment and look to get the best return. The coin that a script selects as most profitable, enables me to do that. Which one that is, doesnt interest me one bit, I probably know nothing about it. I just care about the daily mining revenue and convert that in to some currency I do believe in.

Im sure a lot of people see dash master nodes the same way, like mining machines that dont require a ton of running cost. Like Hashtakers and Prime controllers, remember those? You invest a non trivial amount of money, to get an expected x % ROI. Which works fine as long as dash value is stable and certainly if it goes up. Which it did for quite some time. Not surprising, if people have to buy 1000 dash per node, and today what, >70% of all Dash is in such nodes?
that must have created quite a lot of demand.

Anyway, at some point, the number of new master nodes will level off, as the ROI decreases and the required investment keeps going up. THis will dramatically reduce the demand for Dash, most likely resulting in a price drop. Now you have a problem. A lot of capital was invested in those nodes, owned by a lot of people who really dont care about Dash but did expect a high ROI. If just a tiny fraction of them begin pulling out, the price just has to tumble and cause a snowball effect, and I honestly dont see where the demand is going to come from to keep the price from utterly collapsing.

Wow, this is so funny.  People like you are so myopic in their point of view and see crypto only as an investment.  But Dash's goals is to be USEFUL.  To be a currency.  You've just explained why not all coins will end up in Masternodes, which is a GOOD thing. For Dash to act as a value of exchange, it has got to have volume / liquidity.  Like Bitcoin, at 8 years of age, things will be volatile until it reaches a market cap that is high enough and an ownership spread wide enough to make the volatility low enough to count on / plan with.

And you know, big holders have dumped, and dumped a lot of times.  And yes, the last time, it drove the price from around $14 to $9 and started the trend which went into the $7 range (didn't it go that low recently?)  Most of these  people are people I really like and I hope they bought back in when it got so low, and that they've cooled off on what pissed them off so much (usually feeling like they are not being heard, which is understandable)

Anyway, I think for a lot of "Dashers" we are here at an idealistic level.  We are here to change the world, and be a part of a movement that will take decentralization as far as it can go while being as useful and easy to use as the legacy Fiat system.  Sure we hope to retire off a good investment, but it's the excitement of making a difference that pushes us forward!  

Oh, and ditto on anything and everything Toknormal says ^^^  He actually understands the market, unlike me

But good luck with your investments

[qwizzie]

Lets also not forget about Dash Evolution and the decentralized masternode shares program that will come with it.
Dash Evolution will allow anyone to put aside a bit of Dash on a personal savingsaccount, where they will earn some interest on it.

That bit of Dash together with other people's bits of Dash will be used in the background to start more masternodes,
taxing Dash available supply even more.

Also i'm sure more revenue streams for masternode holders will emerge that will cope with the planned lower
blockrewards (the yearly 7% cut in Dash blockrewards, which will lead to lower ROI to masternodes / miners
and provide less Dash to our decentralized budget system in the future), so that the masternode network keeps its incentivized
character also in the future.



  



 

[TanteStefana2]

Lets also not forget about Dash Evolution and the decentralized masternode shares program that will come with it.
Dash Evolution will allow anyone to put aside a bit of Dash on a personal savingsaccount, where they will earn some interest on it.

That bit of Dash together with other people's bits of Dash will be used in the background to start more masternodes,
taxing Dash available supply even more.



 

Yes, most certainly we will eventually have something like "savings accounts" that pay a moderate interest rate... maybe only 2% per year, maybe less?  But even then, when the Dash system is mature and wide spread, that will be a healthy incentive to "lock" funds in a savings account, and there will be plenty of Masternodes to pull the weight.  What's great about this is that the market forces will keep this all in check.  We shall see if Heyek was correct

[IMZ]

'Dash's goals is to be USEFUL.  To be a currency.'

We're plugging along. Just bought some 'mini-bullion' to use for P2P crypto-bullion trades. Getting some volume on Living Room of Satoshi is our next project.

[wackyD]

Sure it makes sense. Most dash are stored in master nodes. Acquiring those 1000 dash to be able to set up a master node is what mainly fueled its past bull run. That by itself further increased demand for dash to set up more masternodes, closing the loop. Those people didnt buy dash because "they believed", but because they expected a ~10-20% ROI on a rallying currency. Particularly compelling during a period where bitcoin was pretty stagnant. 

But once the price starts going down for whatever reason, like a BTC rally, that ROI goes up in smoke and those same master node operators will run to the exits. Because they own so much of the currency, cause a snowball effect.  Especially when bitcoin is rallying.

As is, the masternode system creates its own price volatility, fueling bubbles on its way up, and in all likelihood, bloodbaths on its way down.

lol where did this fud genius pop up from? thanks for gracing our forum with your never-before thought out ideas

[sui_generis]

I would suggest that you guys dump your masternodes before Dash falls below .01. You don't want to be holding a bag of Dash when BTC climbs above $1000.

[TaoOfSaatoshi]

Proposal: Cash Alternative TV Equipment

https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/proposal-cash-alternative-tv-equipment.12494/

Please support my YouTube Dash promotion.

Cheers, Tao

Thanks for the support so far, guys and girls!

[Kienbui]

Thanks for those links, OneDay. V. useful information.

Look at the chart:

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/dash/

I'm throwing everything into Dash, for both technical and fundamental reasons. I think Bitcoin is going way up.

Perhaps to $2.5Kwithin six months.  

Dash will go up at least x12 within a few months of Evolution release, only if they can eliminate 'crypto' addresses in favor of "human readable addresses" and implement a plausible 'savings account' interest bearing account.

Just remember, this won't happen for about another year, right?

Right, Tante.  Money invested now will be multiplied, money invested in about another year will not  

You sound like you expect Dash Evolution to flop and not get any traction in adoption?  It will probably take a few more years, but it will catch on IMO.  Paypal didn't really exist  until 2002, and by 2004, I was using all the time.  Now it's beyond huge.  I don't see why Dash won't be just as successful when we will have an amazingly easy to use interface.  

The one thing that Paypal had that Dash currently doesn't, is a marketplace.  It had Ebay.  This is why I've wanted something like Open Bazaar, only run on masternodes, for the past 2 years, but it's too much, and it complicates things with Masternodes, so nobody wants to do that at this time.  That's fine with me, I'm sure a solution will present itself at some point here.

So though I agree that money invested now will multiply, I don't agree that it won't continue to do so well into the future

Evolution does have a marketplace   It's the Apps section in the screens Amanda showed.  An app is similar to a store in open bazaar, except you don't need to operate a p2p node to list/use one, you can do that through the decentralized API, in addition to moderated refunds there are other payment types too like recurring auto-pay for subscriptions.  I remember when you suggested OB for Dash and was on the todo list and we found a way to do that and it's a logical progression of the system as soon as you introduce the concept of users and merchants at the protocol level tbh (or rather objects that are be configured to model users and merchants in Dash's higher tiers).  

The difference with OB is, Apps in Evolution are integrated to the Dash Network /  blockchain via DashDrive, not a seperate p2p network on top of Dash, it also means any merchant / service / business that accepts Dash is listed in DashDrive (provided they use DAPI) so everyone can discover and access all Dash enabled services.  It's always better to integrate services like this rather than try to run as a satellite p2p network which never seem to get good usage and have low node counts, to be fair this isn't possible in Bitcoin though which is an understandably conservative project in terms of protocol innovation due to the existing traction and comparatively large market size.

Super cool!

Is the Dash Evolution a open source? Everybody can deploy Evolution code on his website or we can only use Evolution on Dash.org?

Thank you,

Yes everything in Dash is always open source, and Evo code can be deployed on any website.  There is really nothing special about dash.org apart from it's run by the core team and using the domain the network purchased.  We will add an Evolution signup to dash.org when it's released, but any site can add this by just hooking into the https api the MN network will be hosting.

Excellent! What's the requirements to run Evolution website?

On the frontend, it's just JavaScript, on the backend, just include a DashPay library in your server-side code, which will connect to DAPI automatically in the same way you integrate Stripe with a library that speaks to their servers.  The lib can connect to a local fullnode too if required.  

For the Alpha we will release the DashPay lib for Node JS servers but we can add PHP, Ruby, Python, Java etc later or maybe people in the community will build those sooner.

For the website users, the minimum browser version requirements depend on the type of application.  Anything that needs cryptographically strong random number generation or SPV, like wallets or signup portals, will need at least these versions:

Firefox 21 (2013)
Chrome 11 (2011)
Tor Browser v3.6 (2014)
IE 11 (Oct 2013)
Edge 12 ( 2015)
Safari 6.1 (2013)
Opera 15 (2013)
iOS 7.1 Safari (2014)
Android 4.4 Browser (2013)

But the bulk of the applications, like a merchant checkout or social plugin, don't actually need these features on the frontend, so old browsers will be fine, probably going back to IE6.  Also, most Evo wallet users would probably be on native mobile we would think, but it's good to have a web option for that.

Sound interesting!

Does it means all the applications on app store are running on decentralized masternodes and the backend web server only interact with DAPI and the backend web server does not need a database?

All user information, user wallet, and application data... stores and retrieves by DAPI?

Thank you,

Hi there, a few people have asked similar questions on DF/Slack so let me clarify:

The term 'App' in the Evolution marketplace really means 'Merchant listing' or any entity that is providing a paid service, and it's a listing rather than a traditional App that you install (although this term was chosen because in future we can implement more in this area..)  But Apps don't run on Masternodes, they are really data structures stored in DashDrive

So if you are an e-commerce Merchant, a POS retailer, a game developer, a vending machine operator or a masternode hosting service, when you signup an 'App' in DAPI you get an API key and then you can enable payments within your webstore, game, app, soda machine or whatever software / hardware you are selling through, by linking the DashPay lib into your source code then using it like a traditional payment API (e.g. Stripe).

The data DAPI will store for your app is just your basic listing info, a list of product SKUs (if you want), and a list of Orders which are raised by Dash users from your checkout.

So...yes you could implement a basic (e.g.) webstore without your own database and just rely on your App, product and order listings from DAPI, which relates to existing Dash users also in DAPI.  This wouldnt be enough for a full-blown e-commerce pipeline, but it would be fine for e.g. buying content in a game or e.g. monetizing user generated content in a social plugin where the app provider just wants to see basic billing / customer info.  This is a big advantage, because integrating crypto is so complicated for most businesses right now its one of the reasons they won't touch it.

A few other points - all of this is fee based, so every time an object is created / updated in DashDrive there is a small fee (but much smaller than TX fees because the data is smaller and it's also sharded in storage on MNs).

Also, Masternodes don't serve any code or content, DAPI is purely an API service.

We have a paper internally at RFC stage we should release next month that should explain it a lot better than me posting a few things here

Andy

Thank you very much for clarifying that.

I am eagerly looking for the release date.

[TanteStefana2]

Thank you very much for clarifying that.

I am eagerly looking for the release date.

Remember, although 12.1 will have better functionality and a few nice abilities, like starting your MNs really easily, Evolution won't be here for about another year.  But, testnet will be a really fun place this year!

[dafdaf]

I would suggest that you guys dump your masternodes before Dash falls below .01. You don't want to be holding a bag of Dash when BTC climbs above $1000.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Kienbui]

Thank you very much for clarifying that.

I am eagerly looking for the release date.

Remember, although 12.1 will have better functionality and a few nice abilities, like starting your MNs really easily, Evolution won't be here for about another year.  But, testnet will be a really fun place this year!

Oh, that's interesting! In my mind I thought that the 12.1 quite complicate because it requires mysql.

[P4man]

The bits you left out are the part of the cycle where the supply-demand curve balances out and re-asserts itself again. If you look at a 3-day chart of Dash since its launch you'll see that we've had about 3-4 full cycles of saturation/sell-off/re-establish demand so far and I've described this more fully here in terms of a dynamic interaction between two segments of the coin supply - a "trading" component and a "reserve" component on which holders earn interest.

The thing you're leaving out, is that the current market cap is largely based on demand for interest earning coins. A demand that has to level out eventually and can quickly reverse if 1000 dash stored in master nodes suddenly become a losing proposition. PoW currencies dont have this problem. The "interest earning" aspect of it is invested in mining hardware. If/when the currency suddenly loses value, mining may become unprofitable, causing miners to lose their shirt if they cant switch to another coin, but hoarders are not affected by this, since dumping asics on the market has no effect on the price of the coin. There is no feedback loop. This is quite different with PoS coins. Your master node cant switch to mining Ether and you cant sell your node without selling the coins.

'Dash's goals is to be USEFUL.  To be a currency.'

Sure, but it isnt yet, is it? And yet its valued at $70M. If you think that valuation comes from anything other than speculation and interest seeking investors, ie, master node operators, you're delusional.

[Terzo2]

https://cointelegraph.com/news/the-human-impact-of-bitcoins-scaling-problems

Bad user experiences may drive Bitcoin users to other cryptocurrencies

The final result from lower Bitcoin performance is that some users have been driven to abandon it altogether in favor of other digital currencies. Amanda B. Johnson, a web show host and former Bitcoin enthusiast, now holds Dash exclusively and promotes the cryptocurrency via her web show Dash Detailed, after becoming disillusioned with Bitcoin over delayed online purchases:

“The first time Bitcoin's network congestion and fee chaos affected me was when I placed a Purse.io order earlier this year. I was using a popular Bitcoin mobile wallet and figured it’s recommended fee would be sufficient. Nearly 24 hours later, I was still waiting for a confirmation, meaning no Amazon order had been placed. That's not the future of money.”

[balu]

Oh, that's interesting! In my mind I thought that the 12.1 quite complicate because it requires mysql.

Afaik mysql was dropped in favor of sqlite, so no need to fear about 12.1 being too complicated.

And while evolution might be some time away, we will hopefully see tons of alpha/beta releases throughout the year, hopefully in an iterative manner. Expect to use testnet way more in 2017

[Kienbui]

Oh, that's interesting! In my mind I thought that the 12.1 quite complicate because it requires mysql.

Afaik mysql was dropped in favor of sqlite, so no need to fear about 12.1 being too complicated.

And while evolution might be some time away, we will hopefully see tons of alpha/beta releases throughout the year, hopefully in an iterative manner. Expect to use testnet way more in 2017

Thank you,

Do you know when will the 12.1 be released?

[toknormal]

The thing you're leaving out, is that the current market cap is largely based on demand for interest earning coins. A demand that has to level out eventually and can quickly reverse if 1000 dash stored in master nodes suddenly become a losing proposition

Apparently not. (According to 2.5 year's worth of trading and nodecount correlations ).

[harmani21]

Its a shame that monero is rising with bitcoin rising while dash a superior coin is being dumped like that ..we must have at least 20$ per dash price ! We are fighting above 11-12$ for months while monero is flying high without even a normal gui