[ANN] [BEN] Benjamins ◄ SHA-256 ►◄ BOUNTY AVAILABLE to make BEN merge mineable!!

[iGotSpots]

Thinking about it though...

A fork now would be a bandage on a gunshot. Would help today but not be good overall

Things need time to heal. A gunshot and Benjamins are both in that list

From a business perspective, I would personally pick a coin that chose long term even if short term sucks. We already said we will process BEN either way but if I were seeing this for the first time that would be my inclination

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[iGotSpots]

What if more miners don't hop on? Seems more would leave in this situation rather than more show up.

That's where they need massive marketing and a nice pump to get the price where it should be. If the price were to skyrocket then the mining profitability would go up and more asic would join in. The name is good and Paysha should bring it more attention.

[Poogasm]

So, cross our fingers and hope?

Works for me.

[Mortimer452]

We are 15k blocks ahead of schedule. This has nothing to do with wanting to hold what we already have. None of us have sold a single Benjamin, and in fact have used most of what we mined for giveaways on Reddit, Twitter, Cryptocointalk, and several other sites

Read what Igotspots quoted above. It explains our decision and gives reasons why a fork would make the situation worse. 10 minute block times are better for security, this is a known issue, as well as the KGW holes recently found, further strengthen our decision not to fork

Coins should not be created to serve the miners, but the consumers who will use them in the end. Benjamins will be one of the most secure blockchains once it has the hashpower to back up the numbers. Security and not losing coins or leaving them vulnerable to attack so vendors, exchanges, or traders don't lose payments is more important to us than making a few coin hopping miners happy. I'm sorry, but that's the truth. The ones that have stuck around mining since the beginning will enjoy having rarer-than-planned coins, but that was definitely not our intention

Sorry to be blunt but you are delusional.

Appealing to miners is ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED.  Without miners transactions cannot be confirmed.  No sending coins, no receiving coins, no mining coins.

I'm not saying BEN needs KGW.  I'm not saying BEN has to decrease the block time (although, it would be my preference if it did).  But the diff adjustment issue has to be addressed.  Mark my words, the next diff adjustment will never, ever, ever arrive, BEN will never, ever, ever see anything close to 10-minute block times again if you do not fork this coin.

I can't make it any more clear. If we make difficulty adjust faster, it will go up every block. Every block will get harder than the previous, increasing the time even further than if it jumps every 2000 blocks. The long time in between will let the network catch up. If difficulty is changed more frequently, it will go up more than if we don't fork it before it goes down

You did the math before, so I know you understand how far ahead we are. Surely you realize what I mean?

I do understand what you mean, but I don't think you understand what I mean

Simply changing the diff adjustment to every 1 blocks will not fix the problem.  The diff algorithm itself also needs to be changed, and adjusted to take into consideration the current block height.

Current diff algo looks at the current block height, versus the expected block height and adjusts the difficulty up or down based on how close we are to the expected block#.

This algo is no good, BEN will never, ever correct itself using this algorithm (well, maybe eventually, but it will take YEARS).  

A new diff adjustment algorithm must be implemented, maybe one that does not look at the expected block height, but looks at the length of time it took to complete the previous X number of blocks and adjusts the diff accordingly (pretty sure this would work, but I'm just shooting from the hip here).

Additionally, the diff adjustment period must also be reduced - otherwise, BEN will simply end up with the same problem again in a couple weeks.

Max time at current hashrate will be 4 months to be where it should be, sped up with more miners that hop on. This problem will never happen once it catches up, because the network will not allow it to get that far ahead. It only happened because ASIC power wasn't accounted for in the initial difficulty

This, once corrected, will NEVER happen again. It's impossible to get 5 times ahead of the network other than with a massive launch

Maybe 4.5 months from now only if you shutdown the network and mined ZERO blocks between now and July.  Current block height is 24212, given the coin's 10-minute block times that block height should not have been reached until around July 20.

But BEN is going to mine blocks between now and then (slowly, yes, but it will happen).  This will continue to push the date out further.

Current nethash is 1.3TH - what are you going to do when the coin gets "back to normal," 60TH worth of miners hop in and mine the next 2016 blocks in 3 hours?  The diff will spike enormously again, because the blockheight is ahead of schedule, miners will hop off, and BEN will be right back where it is now.

Regardless of the above, the next diff adjustment is not going to hit in July anyway.  It will be way, way further out than that.  Block times are going to continue to increase, unless you've got several TH of personal mining power you're willing to throw at BEN for the next 4 months.  Each day, the # of days until the next diff adjustment is going to increase.  There's a good chance BEN may never reach it.

Fork the coin.  It has to happen.

[iGotSpots]

So, cross our fingers and hope?

Works for me.

Well those are what I would do if it were me. Both options have pros and cons

The good news and the real reason we will support BEN is because it hasn't had any stability issues. Difficulty sucks for speed but its not losing any coins or getting forked unintentionally

[AllAboutTheBenjaminsBaby]

Those who have ideas for the fork, please post specifics and we will run the numbers. Even throw it up on a testnet for a few days if it sounds good. Like I said, we are always open to ideas. Just because right now we are saying no plans for a fork, that doesn't mean our minds won't be swayed if a mathematically better idea is posted

Numbers don't lie, and every scenario we have run so far has doing nothing as being the best option

[iGotSpots]

I think the difference of opinion is because mine and I believe Ben's are geared long term merchant use while the forkers (lol sounds like some revolutionary birther equivalent) are focused on best options for miners

Both are equally important but its convincing one side to cave for the other

[Poogasm]

I am useless as a miner anymore, even before this last jump I was getting a couple a day at most so it barely effects my mining results if the blocks take forever, but it will effect me as a holder of the coin if the miners that are useful run from the coin en masse.

I just want what is best for the coin, for both the holders and the miners, since we need both for the coin to thrive etc etc.

Now, I am off to cross my fingers that the lot of you that understand this way better than I do can figure out what is truly best and see to it happening, whatever that may be.

I'll keep buying em of course.

[AllAboutTheBenjaminsBaby]

We are essentially catching up by 5-7 network days, depending on that day's block times, every actual 24 hours. Which means we are only adding about 1/8 of what we are eating up

Even with such a shitty situation, we are still far ahead of many older, more established, higher market cap coins on coinwarz, and I'm not referring to merge mined. Those don't count

[itsunderstood]

What you need to do is think outside the box.  You need to put a miner at every merchant's register.  Cubes are 350 USD or so, there needs to be a way to get at least 30ghs or so onto the network at every node.  The solution is getting merchants to mine without their even thinking about it.

You need to think of new ideas and ignore the fools who can only think of coinraping to git more BTC.

You need a coin with better people at its core than BTC, but in the end, most people in finance --and most rich people, are exploitation-oriented.  So the critic above is like a merchant buying a side of beef.  He sees all coins as the same: profit vectors.

Well, the original pieces of eight, was actually based on the spanish real coin, which, due to debauching the coins, the American silver piece had more merit, in a sea of trashcoins.  But yes, miners often do see the trashcoins as just a springboard to "BTC per day" which is not surprising.

Anyway, the solution is to leave all the smart people behind and court merchants, and the 99% of humans who do not mine.  Let me know if you people want ideas, I'll join your conference call.

[AllAboutTheBenjaminsBaby]

The price has nearly doubled since we said we didn't plan on a fork. Is that a sign that we did the right thing?

[itsunderstood]

The price has nearly doubled since we said we didn't plan on a fork. Is that a sign that we did the right thing?

Well like you said, the long term hold of coins is the right focus.

Even if Benjamin himself blessed his coin, there would still be pump and dumpers riding the thing up, mercilessly, and they call themselves "the free market".  So, at these prices, I would expect huge swings.  I mean, I bought a few thousand at cryptsy and sure they've 'doubled' but I am not selling.

Ben you have a better understanding of the blockchain structure than I do.  I was a field POS tech and also a stockbroker way long ago, so I know market plays and POS technology, but I am confident you have a good coin and I am happy to mine something that has spine.

[Prayer]

First Block: 2/2 2:07
Last Block: 3/7 14:46  (24214)

Elapsed time: 2896740 seconds

On a 64 second block time, we are 15 days behind.  We should be at block 45261.

On a 300 second block time, we are at 51 days ahead, we should be at block 9655.

In reality, we have an average block time of 119 seconds.  Let's go for it...

I would suggest a fork for block #25000, with a 120 second block time and a weekly readjustment.

2 minute block times would make BEN the fastest on Paysha (considering the current contenders), but is only twice as fast as advertised.

If we wanted to get all the way back to the 64 second block time, you could even implement a mechanism to reduce the block time by 1 second every 5000 blocks (or so), it would take less than a year to get back to the advertised rates.

[CryptoGuy]

What you need to do is think outside the box.  You need to put a miner at every merchant's register.  Cubes are 350 USD or so, there needs to be a way to get at least 30ghs or so onto the network at every node.  The solution is getting merchants to mine without their even thinking about it.

You need to think of new ideas and ignore the fools who can only think of coinraping to git more BTC.

You need a coin with better people at its core than BTC, but in the end, most people in finance --and most rich people, are exploitation-oriented.  So the critic above is like a merchant buying a side of beef.  He sees all coins as the same: profit vectors.

Well, the original pieces of eight, was actually based on the spanish real coin, which, due to debauching the coins, the American silver piece had more merit, in a sea of trashcoins.  But yes, miners often do see the trashcoins as just a springboard to "BTC per day" which is not surprising.

Anyway, the solution is to leave all the smart people behind and court merchants, and the 99% of humans who do not mine.  Let me know if you people want ideas, I'll join your conference call.

Good idea but a more efficient miner is needed. 400W is a lot of power and extra heat for them to deal with. A few Antminer U1's running off a Pi inside a small box would be more ideal as it would only be a few watts and more affordable. And you could incorporate something like this into it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-rRlNWiIEI

[Mortimer452]

We are essentially catching up by 5-7 network days, depending on that day's block times, every actual 24 hours. Which means we are only adding about 1/8 of what we are eating up

Even with such a shitty situation, we are still far ahead of many older, more established, higher market cap coins on coinwarz, and I'm not referring to merge mined. Those don't count

It's actually a little worse than that, look at the ABE explorer and check out blocks since the diff adjustment on 3/4:

March 5 the network mined a total of 6 blocks, and averaged 282 minutes per block
March 6 the network mined a total of 5 blocks, and averaged 264 minutes per block
March 7 (today) the network has mined a total of 6 blocks so far, averaging 155 minutes per block

We could give this a few more days I suppose, and see if it works out averaging to the ~80 minutes per block it should be given the hashrate and current diff, but so far it looks pretty grim.

The above post was right about PityThePool - despite only having about 1/3 of the network hashrate, it has found 18 out of the past 20 blocks.  Not sure what would cause that - maybe PityThePool is just really kickass

[AllAboutTheBenjaminsBaby]

An efficient ASIC with something like those tip bot things in that video would be sweet if all the coins were merge mined. Then Paysha could just do a pool for all 4 coins and have the miner/pos auto connect to that company's pool id

Prayer, that's not a bad suggestion, either. But by your numbers, we aren't that far off of it correcting itself in about a month

[itsunderstood]

Good idea but a more efficient miner is needed. 400W is a lot of power and extra heat for them to deal with.

I have sat in so many meetings, where nobody was smart enough to really say anything smart.  Or, they were smart enough not to speak when dipshits were running the meeting.

So, you are answering my idea, saying "No way dude, Antminers'd be better because xyz reasons"  And I do not disagree, but can you see that there will be no real solutions, while people fret over 1/1000th of pennies, as the entire world's money is prepped for 100 years to collapse on command?

I agree buddy, I have an Ant and a Cube mining Benjamins (on the wrong pool LOL) and I am "losing" money in terms of the rape fees my local municipality-crime-network, charges for electricity.  Sure. the Ant is more efficient but the "customer" wants a solution that is sealed, like what International Business Machines got its start with: CASH REGISTERS.  They need to be solid at the POS end, and they are not, at this time.  So, sure, efficiency matters, but brains matte far more, because criminals are some abused little people, and abuse and criminal environment does sharpen the mind far beyond college, I bet.

But, when the electricity goes down, I have a generator which runs off propane and puts off easily excess electrons to run my mining rigs, so, I am of the opinion that the money system will collapse and we may still be able to talk here.  And if so, the questions will not be about crapcoins, it will be about "Who has bread to trade for cryptocoins?"

Anyway, good idea.  Let's make sure thieves cannot root the system you build, as they have done so far with the existing systems.

[itsunderstood]

Sorry CryptoGuy I didn't mean to sound harsh.

Have you ever played the game "Fallout"?  Well, what we need, are PIPBOYS.  Seriously, have you seen the commericial where some wack-future is presented to us, where we actually SWIPE a plastic card on a swiper that plugs into our tablet?  Like, wut? 

But then, tablets themselves, are 100% not designed at all with security in mind.  That is because, security people are boring in meetings, sad to say.  And people like me, when we see the security guy not talking in the meeting, we know the meeting is another corporate fellatio session for whomever is the manager de jour of that meeting.  And, after the meeting, guys like me go up to the security guy, who is paid 3x what we are paid, and ask him why did you not say anything? And he will say "I did and they didn't listen. [shrug]"

So, in terms of what we REALLY need, I'd say we need Pipboys first of all.  So, Raspberry Pi is of course the leading PipBoy platform, and yes, your excellent point about efficiency does matter there, indeed, because I want my PipBoy to be a wallet/transaction device, as well as a dosemeter.  Does the Raspberry Pi have a rads detector yet?  If not, let's build that first.

But yes, in terms of multiple reasons, you are right, efficiency does matter.  But, adoption of the tech, has to be based on rock-solid security like think payphones type.  Early cash registers were a hundreds-pounds vault with a giant lever and such.  Nowadays, the newest NCR terminal, is some OS underneath like all the rest.  Indeed, not one single bit of crypto has gone into 300+ years of cash register research.  Until now.

Benjamin F. himself is with us, I can feel his common sense coming close to this thread as we ponder the costs of the future.

[Paysha]

Getting closer to launch...

http://paysha.com/FinCEN/PayshaFinCEN.pdf

Or search Paysha under DBA on FinCEN - Launch is near

http://www.fincen.gov/financial_institutions/msb/msbstateselector.html

[CryptoGuy]

Sorry CryptoGuy I didn't mean to sound harsh.

Have you ever played the game "Fallout"?  Well, what we need, are PIPBOYS.  Seriously, have you seen the commericial where some wack-future is presented to us, where we actually SWIPE a plastic card on a swiper that plugs into our tablet?  Like, wut?  

But then, tablets themselves, are 100% not designed at all with security in mind.  That is because, security people are boring in meetings, sad to say.  And people like me, when we see the security guy not talking in the meeting, we know the meeting is another corporate fellatio session for whomever is the manager de jour of that meeting.  And, after the meeting, guys like me go up to the security guy, who is paid 3x what we are paid, and ask him why did you not say anything? And he will say "I did and they didn't listen. [shrug]"

So, in terms of what we REALLY need, I'd say we need Pipboys first of all.  So, Raspberry Pi is of course the leading PipBoy platform, and yes, your excellent point about efficiency does matter there, indeed, because I want my PipBoy to be a wallet/transaction device, as well as a dosemeter.  Does the Raspberry Pi have a rads detector yet?  If not, let's build that first.

But yes, in terms of multiple reasons, you are right, efficiency does matter.  But, adoption of the tech, has to be based on rock-solid security like think payphones type.  Early cash registers were a hundreds-pounds vault with a giant lever and such.  Nowadays, the newest NCR terminal, is some OS underneath like all the rest.  Indeed, not one single bit of crypto has gone into 300+ years of cash register research.  Until now.

Benjamin F. himself is with us, I can feel his common sense coming close to this thread as we ponder the costs of the future.

No worries. I'm thinking about it from the perspective of the business owner. If someone made a pitch to me and said I'd have to run this 400W cube that puts out all this heat, and oh yeah, you'll need this power supply hooked up to it too...   I wouldn't bother. Now if it was a sleek little machine that takes up a few inches of counter space and also accepts tips? That would be much more appealing than two boxes you have to hide in a closet or under the counter.

Edit: And it doesn't just have to be tips. If someone were to make a POS machine out of it where it can multi-functional and accept transactions, track purchases and support tips and whatnot, then you've got yourself something. I just don't see a business burning that much electricity for something that doesn't technically help their business. After all, transactions will still be validated by the rest of the network.