1GH/s, 20w, $500 — Butterflylabs, is it a scam?

[bittenbob]

Stopped reading on the part you asked me for 100BTC... really? lol

He claims I only want a donation for discrediting a supposedly legitimate scam. Look at my posts. I removed one of the references in good faith as I had said. 100BTC was an arbitrary number and was just to prove a point. I do not want to see people fall victim to a scam. Period.

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[Raoul Duke]

Stopped reading on the part you asked me for 100BTC... really? lol

He claims I only want a donation for discrediting a supposedly legitimate scam. Look at my posts. I removed one of the references in good faith as I had said. 100BTC was an arbitrary number and was just to prove a point. I do not want to see people fall victim to a scam. Period.

You are also soliciting money for informations you can't prove to be true(yet), so you are as much of a scammer as butterfly labs is.

[bittenbob]

As per one of my other posts did you look at the shadows on the chips in this picture? Not to mention if that iron is hot (which I use a similar one all the time) I would not be taking my eye off it as they leave one heck of a burn. I deal with testing and certification of solar panels so I know all about ligthing and I do not see any possible objects that would create the shadows in this picture.

[bittenbob]

Stopped reading on the part you asked me for 100BTC... really? lol

He claims I only want a donation for discrediting a supposedly legitimate scam. Look at my posts. I removed one of the references in good faith as I had said. 100BTC was an arbitrary number and was just to prove a point. I do not want to see people fall victim to a scam. Period.

You are also soliciting money for informations you can't prove to be true(yet), so you are as much of a scammer as butterfly labs is.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything. I encourage you not to send me money by all means. You will have more of a chance of getting one of these boards from me as this so called company.

As for something that isn't proven I think the evidence speaks for itself. A company without a real address asking for $500 per person for something on good faith when they dont list any names, just the picutre of the lady in this picture who appears to be working on some of the boards. If she is soldering, where is her solder bulb?

Edit:

One more point to this picture. There are no solder points on the side of the board she appears to be working on. Guru my ass.

[gmaxwell]

So this is my hypothesis. Is there anyone here who's really familiar with the current black-market for the defective and out-of-spec silicon? If so, please post your speculation with a new account through Tor or some other proxy.

The needs for mining are so out of wack with other sha256 engine uses... 1MH/s ~= 1 Gbit/sec of sha256 that the idea of using an engine used for something else seems implausible.

Grey market ("fell off truck") FPGAs? More plausible... but their power figures don't really support FPGAs unless perhaps a batch of 22nm FPGAs "fell off a truck".

SASIC is basically plausable and the upfront costs aren't that crazy. Of course, you'd want to keep it as private as long as possible— because anyone else could go and do it too once you've proven the demand. The work is not trivial but it's not a moat either.

[RandyFolds]

Look at the pictures with the lady from the update... If she is a so called ninja guru why would she be holding a soldering iron at 800F so close to her hand? Its very easy to get some fake boards and the more elaborate the hoax the more willing people will be to believe it. Someone has been offering for weeks to come over and verify that this is real and they live across the street from the KC address.

This entire hoax could have been done for under $1000 and anyone with any technical knowledge about FPGA's and ASIC could easily pull this off. I personally know a dozen people off hand that could do this easily and probably would if they thought of it first.

Like I said before if I am wrong I will eat my dirty socks. If it sounds like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck... its probably a duck.

This is my post damn near verbatim from a few pages back. Bullshit, you read the thread.

[bittenbob]

So this is my hypothesis. Is there anyone here who's really familiar with the current black-market for the defective and out-of-spec silicon? If so, please post your speculation with a new account through Tor or some other proxy.

The needs for mining are so out of wack with other sha256 engine uses... 1MH/s ~= 1 Gbit/sec of sha256 that the idea of using an engine used for something else seems implausible.

Grey market ("fell off truck") FPGAs? More plausible... but their power figures don't really support FPGAs unless perhaps a batch of 22nm FPGAs "fell off a truck".

SASIC is basically plausable and the upfront costs aren't that crazy. Of course, you'd want to keep it as private as long as possible— because anyone else could go and do it too once you've proven the demand. The work is not trivial but it's not a moat either.

On their job tab they claim to be looking for people with knowledge in:

•Semiconductor design
•Telecommunications
•Encryption
•Mathematics
•Fiber optics
•PCB design
•ASIC Engineering
•Software
•Routing


I suspect yet another layer to make them sound legit but they do mention ASIC. I never said what they were claiming was impossible, just unlikely given the lack of any real information about the company itself. If anyone has experience with this I encourage you to apply to them and verify for the rest of the community that their claims are legit and that the company is as well.

[sadpandatech]

As for something that isn't proven I think the evidence speaks for itself. A company without a real address asking for $500 per person for something on good faith when they dont list any names, just the picutre of the lady in this picture who appears to be working on some of the boards. If she is soldering, where is her solder bulb?

  I can't disagree with the idea of sending money to a fictional address being unsettling at the least.

  I believe you are mistaken about her equipment though. That gun is slightly more advanced than one that is used for solar panels(I've placed a few). She appears to be holding a pick in her left hand and I would assume that solder gun has the 'bulb' built in, i.e., bead type. Not real up on those but I know its a lot more advanced than your standard, temp controlled gun.  Note the Cute Tape chips there behind her working platform. And, look closely at the edge of the white binder there. It bears the name of some equipment that is not cheap and just wouldn't be thought of to fit 'the scam', imho.  hell, that Dry keeper alone is about a grand.. $300+ magnifying light.

   The shadows from the boards look right to me and the luminescence and sharpness of the photo seems to match enough to be from the same or similar quality camera as their others. Though, I suppose it is possible they hijacked a picture of a lady working at a desk at a lab and imposed the boards into it...  

[bittenbob]

Look at the pictures with the lady from the update... If she is a so called ninja guru why would she be holding a soldering iron at 800F so close to her hand? Its very easy to get some fake boards and the more elaborate the hoax the more willing people will be to believe it. Someone has been offering for weeks to come over and verify that this is real and they live across the street from the KC address.

This entire hoax could have been done for under $1000 and anyone with any technical knowledge about FPGA's and ASIC could easily pull this off. I personally know a dozen people off hand that could do this easily and probably would if they thought of it first.

Like I said before if I am wrong I will eat my dirty socks. If it sounds like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck... its probably a duck.

This is my post damn near verbatim from a few pages back. Bullshit, you read the thread.

I read about shadows and the granny thing. I thought the reference to the shadows was about an earlier picture of the board. I also thought it wouldnt hurt to show the picture and reinterate it. It appears you agree with me though so I don't know why you would take offence. I was going to circle the shadows that were questionable but then I would have to host the pictures to display them which is too much effort right now lol.

[RandyFolds]

As per one of my other posts did you look at the shadows on the chips in this picture? Not to mention if that iron is hot (which I use a similar one all the time) I would not be taking my eye off it as they leave one heck of a burn. I deal with testing and certification of solar panels so I know all about ligthing and I do not see any possible objects that would create the shadows in this picture.

You really don't see that halogen light there? Pointing down on the boards at an angle consistent with their shadow?

[RandyFolds]

Look at the pictures with the lady from the update... If she is a so called ninja guru why would she be holding a soldering iron at 800F so close to her hand? Its very easy to get some fake boards and the more elaborate the hoax the more willing people will be to believe it. Someone has been offering for weeks to come over and verify that this is real and they live across the street from the KC address.

This entire hoax could have been done for under $1000 and anyone with any technical knowledge about FPGA's and ASIC could easily pull this off. I personally know a dozen people off hand that could do this easily and probably would if they thought of it first.

Like I said before if I am wrong I will eat my dirty socks. If it sounds like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck... its probably a duck.

This is my post damn near verbatim from a few pages back. Bullshit, you read the thread.

I read about shadows and the granny thing. I thought the reference to the shadows was about an earlier picture of the board. I also thought it wouldnt hurt to show the picture and reinterate it. It appears you agree with me though so I don't know why you would take offence. I was going to circle the shadows that were questionable but then I would have to host the pictures to display them which is too much effort right now lol.

I meant the second part about how this could be done by anyone with $1000, a bit of technical knowledge, access to google, and three months to work on it.

[fred0]

What I find interesting are the big ticket products.  Surely these are not targeted to miners.  I guessed I assumed that their primary customers for this equip are govt agencies that want to break encryption codes.

The developer that wrote the hashkill miner did it for fun.  His real goal was breaking encryption codes.

It could be that the singles are just for fun, with the bigger products going to groups that have a great desire to see what other people encrypt.

[bittenbob]

As for something that isn't proven I think the evidence speaks for itself. A company without a real address asking for $500 per person for something on good faith when they dont list any names, just the picutre of the lady in this picture who appears to be working on some of the boards. If she is soldering, where is her solder bulb?

  I can't disagree with the idea of sending money to a fictional address being unsettling at the least.

  I believe you are mistaken about her equipment though. That gun is slightly more advanced than one that is used for solar panels(I've placed a few). She appears to be holding a pick in her left hand and I would assume that solder gun has the 'bulb' built in, i.e., bead type. Not real up on those but I know its a lot more advanced than your standard, tamp controlled gun.  Note the Cute Tape ships there behind her working platform. And, look closely at the edge of the white binder there. It bears the name of some equipment that is not cheap and jsut wouldn't be thought of to fit 'the scam', imho.  hell, that Dry keeper alone is about a grand.. $300+ magnifying light.

   The shadows from the boards look right to me and the luminescence and sharpness of the photo seems to match enough to be from the same or similar quality camera as their others. Though, I suppose it is possible they hijacked a picture of a lady working at a desk at a lab and imposed the boards into it...  

Lots of people have equipment and I tried to look up the manual but could only make out "Machine Manual - MY Series Vxxxxxx Series 2.4". Just because you have the manual to something doesnt mean you have the actual item. It could be another part of an elaborate ploy to make them seem legit or maybe she really does work with electronics.

The shadows do not add up no matter how you look at them on what some people called the heatsink covers (unmarked silver casings). They do for the one in the bottom left but not for what she is working on. The one on the bottom left you can see the reflection of the capactiors but this is also possible to do in photoshop. Even if the boards are real other people have stated that they could have ordered some that are mocked up for them for cheap. The shadows on the ones she is working on and the fact she is soldering on a side that doesnt have solder connections is indeed strange.

It is possible to build a bulb into a soldering gun and I assure you I do not use a standard solar panel one as I test and certify them. I build custom electronics to test and verify them however and it does seem a little large. As I said I hear all kinds of claims and always view them with a degree of skepticism. I have been proven in the past and it would be interesting if I was.

Even so they could have raised a lot of capital to further this scam at $500/pop already though.
 

[bittenbob]

Look at the pictures with the lady from the update... If she is a so called ninja guru why would she be holding a soldering iron at 800F so close to her hand? Its very easy to get some fake boards and the more elaborate the hoax the more willing people will be to believe it. Someone has been offering for weeks to come over and verify that this is real and they live across the street from the KC address.

This entire hoax could have been done for under $1000 and anyone with any technical knowledge about FPGA's and ASIC could easily pull this off. I personally know a dozen people off hand that could do this easily and probably would if they thought of it first.

Like I said before if I am wrong I will eat my dirty socks. If it sounds like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck... its probably a duck.

This is my post damn near verbatim from a few pages back. Bullshit, you read the thread.

I read about shadows and the granny thing. I thought the reference to the shadows was about an earlier picture of the board. I also thought it wouldnt hurt to show the picture and reinterate it. It appears you agree with me though so I don't know why you would take offence. I was going to circle the shadows that were questionable but then I would have to host the pictures to display them which is too much effort right now lol.

I meant the second part about how this could be done by anyone with $1000, a bit of technical knowledge, access to google, and three months to work on it.

You wouldn't even need 3 months. Suppose it was a member of the Bitcoin community and from what I have read there have already been a few. The longer they can keep this going and having people believe they are legit the more money will be made off this. I did read your post on that and its a very valid point. Most good scammers do their research.

[RandyFolds]

As for something that isn't proven I think the evidence speaks for itself. A company without a real address asking for $500 per person for something on good faith when they dont list any names, just the picutre of the lady in this picture who appears to be working on some of the boards. If she is soldering, where is her solder bulb?

  I can't disagree with the idea of sending money to a fictional address being unsettling at the least.

  I believe you are mistaken about her equipment though. That gun is slightly more advanced than one that is used for solar panels(I've placed a few). She appears to be holding a pick in her left hand and I would assume that solder gun has the 'bulb' built in, i.e., bead type. Not real up on those but I know its a lot more advanced than your standard, tamp controlled gun.  Note the Cute Tape ships there behind her working platform. And, look closely at the edge of the white binder there. It bears the name of some equipment that is not cheap and jsut wouldn't be thought of to fit 'the scam', imho.  hell, that Dry keeper alone is about a grand.. $300+ magnifying light.

   The shadows from the boards look right to me and the luminescence and sharpness of the photo seems to match enough to be from the same or similar quality camera as their others. Though, I suppose it is possible they hijacked a picture of a lady working at a desk at a lab and imposed the boards into it...  

Lots of people have equipment and I tried to look up the manual but could only make out "Machine Manual - MY Series Vxxxxxx Series 2.4". Just because you have the manual to something doesnt mean you have the actual item. It could be another part of an elaborate ploy to make them seem legit or maybe she really does work with electronics.

The shadows do not add up no matter how you look at them on what some people called the heatsink covers (unmarked silver casings). They do for the one in the bottom left but not for what she is working on. The one on the bottom left you can see the reflection of the capactiors but this is also possible to do in photoshop. Even if the boards are real other people have stated that they could have ordered some that are mocked up for them for cheap. The shadows on the ones she is working on and the fact she is soldering on a side that doesnt have solder connections is indeed strange.

It is possible to build a bulb into a soldering gun and I assure you I do not use a standard solar panel one as I test and certify them. I build custom electronics to test and verify them however and it does seem a little large. As I said I hear all kinds of claims and always view them with a degree of skepticism. I have been proven in the past and it would be interesting if I was.

Even so they could have raised a lot of capital to further this scam at $500/pop already though.
 

Once again, just playing devil's advocate here, but you don't think that she could have just held up a tool and a board to pose for the picture that she's obviously posing for?

[bittenbob]

As per one of my other posts did you look at the shadows on the chips in this picture? Not to mention if that iron is hot (which I use a similar one all the time) I would not be taking my eye off it as they leave one heck of a burn. I deal with testing and certification of solar panels so I know all about ligthing and I do not see any possible objects that would create the shadows in this picture.

You really don't see that halogen light there? Pointing down on the boards at an angle consistent with their shadow?

I see the halogen light but it doesnt make sense even with that. The shadow on the board on the right she is working on for the chip/cover on the right is possible but not the one on the left. The light would have to be coming from below her soldering station and would also be longer. The board on the left the shadown on the one on the left doesnt make sense at all. The chip on the right of the left board with the shadow on the edge mean there would have to be another light source coming from table level on the left out of frame. This would cancel that shadow out however with the magnifying light (top left) and halogen on the right. The angles dont make sense and even then if it is real then the boards could still be fakes. A couple of suckers buys a lot of capital to further a scam.

[RandyFolds]

There is absolutely nothing to establish the depth of the halogen light within the frame. You are speaking tinfoil hat jibberish at this point. Furthermore:


http://errorlevelanalysis.com/permalink/9eba598/

[bittenbob]

As for something that isn't proven I think the evidence speaks for itself. A company without a real address asking for $500 per person for something on good faith when they dont list any names, just the picutre of the lady in this picture who appears to be working on some of the boards. If she is soldering, where is her solder bulb?

  I can't disagree with the idea of sending money to a fictional address being unsettling at the least.

  I believe you are mistaken about her equipment though. That gun is slightly more advanced than one that is used for solar panels(I've placed a few). She appears to be holding a pick in her left hand and I would assume that solder gun has the 'bulb' built in, i.e., bead type. Not real up on those but I know its a lot more advanced than your standard, tamp controlled gun.  Note the Cute Tape ships there behind her working platform. And, look closely at the edge of the white binder there. It bears the name of some equipment that is not cheap and jsut wouldn't be thought of to fit 'the scam', imho.  hell, that Dry keeper alone is about a grand.. $300+ magnifying light.

   The shadows from the boards look right to me and the luminescence and sharpness of the photo seems to match enough to be from the same or similar quality camera as their others. Though, I suppose it is possible they hijacked a picture of a lady working at a desk at a lab and imposed the boards into it...  

Lots of people have equipment and I tried to look up the manual but could only make out "Machine Manual - MY Series Vxxxxxx Series 2.4". Just because you have the manual to something doesnt mean you have the actual item. It could be another part of an elaborate ploy to make them seem legit or maybe she really does work with electronics.

The shadows do not add up no matter how you look at them on what some people called the heatsink covers (unmarked silver casings). They do for the one in the bottom left but not for what she is working on. The one on the bottom left you can see the reflection of the capactiors but this is also possible to do in photoshop. Even if the boards are real other people have stated that they could have ordered some that are mocked up for them for cheap. The shadows on the ones she is working on and the fact she is soldering on a side that doesnt have solder connections is indeed strange.

It is possible to build a bulb into a soldering gun and I assure you I do not use a standard solar panel one as I test and certify them. I build custom electronics to test and verify them however and it does seem a little large. As I said I hear all kinds of claims and always view them with a degree of skepticism. I have been proven in the past and it would be interesting if I was.

Even so they could have raised a lot of capital to further this scam at $500/pop already though.
 

Once again, just playing devil's advocate here, but you don't think that she could have just held up a tool and a board to pose for the picture that she's obviously posing for?

She could be posing for the picture as I have done this at work but this is not the only problem with this picture. There are the shadows on the boards and furthermore the soldering tool that is holstered beside the station is a pretty wide tip to be using on circuit boards. Then there are the questions of the adresses supplied by the company and the lack of being able to find any information about any employee names. It is interesting the one person lives across the road from the place in KC and still hasnt been granted any sort of confirmation.

I believe they metnioned they had pictures of people going in and out of this building so I have to play devils advocate as well and ask if any of them were this lady. If not its just another thing that makes this smell fishy. Maybe this is the infamous Nancy Hernandez?

[RandyFolds]

You are repeating things that have been hashed (pun intended) over several times already. I don't believe this is real either, but come on; you are grasping at straws. There is a big soldering iron so she can't be working on a circuit board? There's a hammer by that kiln, there's no way a glassblower could be using it! Utterly preposterous!

[gmaxwell]

A couple of suckers buys a lot of capital to further a scam.

I started this thread because I thought it looked like an obvious scam (certainly in the initial form which had a lot less information that now) and I was concerned because of I knew people were sending them funds and I thought a little sunshine would help people keep safe.

All that said, I think you're taking a much stronger position than is currently justified by the facts. Perhaps you're right, hell if I know.  But if you're so sure, the thing to do is to join in the betting, not spread speculation and slander.