ODI cricket and general cricketing discussion [self - mod]

[Vishnu.Reang]

My response was directed to vishnu's comment, he was implying or exaggerating that Team India depends on Kohli in the limited over cricket.

On test cricket they do depends on him, Everybody knows what happened in last English tour. But there are some other players already exist in the current test team who rise on the occasion time to time, already mentioned 2 examples (Rahane, Pujara) and to add one more name here, Mayank Aggarwal -- no one should forget his inning on Boxing day test match.

Rahane and Pujara are good players. But then the problem is with consistency. They fail to rise to the occasion, when they are needed the most. And Mayank Aggarwal is not even a regular in the test squad. For me, the Indian test squad still looks like a one-man army, especially in the bowler friendly pitches. But they are not as dependent as they were in the 90s, when Sachin Tendulkar was the backbone of batting.

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[JSRAW]

~snip~

Rahane and Pujara are good players. But then the problem is with consistency. They fail to rise to the occasion, when they are needed the most. And Mayank Aggarwal is not even a regular in the test squad. For me, the Indian test squad still looks like a one-man army, especially in the bowler friendly pitches. But they are not as dependent as they were in the 90s, when Sachin Tendulkar was the backbone of batting.

Not sure why do you think that Mayank is not regular. He debuted in 2018-19 (Boxing day test) and after that featured in every single test game (Total 11)  if you are saying that he's new then i can understand your statement but pulling "regular card" seems way off.

Pujara was Man of the series in Australia tour. if we are talking about recent NZ test series where they whitewashed the Indians, almost everyone made run Pujara,Rahane,Mayank (not enough tho) except Kohli.

[bryant.coleman]

Pujara was Man of the series in Australia tour. if we are talking about recent NZ test series where they whitewashed the Indians, almost everyone made run Pujara,Rahane,Mayank (not enough tho) except Kohli.

They made some runs, but not enough. If a nation such as New Zealand, with a population with just 4 million can white-wash India, then it once again proves that Indian batsmen are vulnerable in greentops. However, one advantage with the current Indian team is that now they have world class pace bowlers who can make use of these conditions.

[JSRAW]

Pujara was Man of the series in Australia tour. if we are talking about recent NZ test series where they whitewashed the Indians, almost everyone made run Pujara,Rahane,Mayank (not enough tho) except Kohli.

They made some runs, but not enough. If a nation such as New Zealand, with a population with just 4 million can white-wash India, then it once again proves that Indian batsmen are vulnerable in greentops. However, one advantage with the current Indian team is that now they have world class pace bowlers who can make use of these conditions.

Only 11 players play in any match so population argument seems invalid. But if we are really taking consideration of population in this context then some might argue that Indian cricket is underfunded. NZ has 5 million population, they gets $90 ish Million and another country has 1.35 billion population, they gets only 293 Million from the ICC.

Coming back to vulnerability on green wicket, its simple. BCCI not creating enough green pitch in India, result virtually zero practice for domestic players. Similarly SENA countries not creating enough spin friendly pitches , result they fail in the subcontinent.

[Vishnu.Reang]

Coming back to vulnerability on green wicket, its simple. BCCI not creating enough green pitch in India, result virtually zero practice for domestic players. Similarly SENA countries not creating enough spin friendly pitches , result they fail in the subcontinent.

There are a few, such as Mohali and Dharamshala. But in the end, the pitches will be prepared as per the instruction from the state cricket board. And most of the 37 boards depend upon spin, and therefore they will prefer spin-friendly pitches. One solution would be to take some of these grounds from the state cricket boards and place them directly under the BCCI. Another solution is to send some of the promising batsmen to play county cricket in England or Sheffield Shield in Australia.

[shamimal93]

My response was directed to vishnu's comment, he was implying or exaggerating that Team India depends on Kohli in the limited over cricket.

On test cricket they do depends on him, Everybody knows what happened in last English tour. But there are some other players already exist in the current test team who rise on the occasion time to time, already mentioned 2 examples (Rahane, Pujara) and to add one more name here, Mayank Aggarwal -- no one should forget his inning on Boxing day test match.

Rahane and Pujara are good players. But then the problem is with consistency. They fail to rise to the occasion, when they are needed the most. And Mayank Aggarwal is not even a regular in the test squad. For me, the Indian test squad still looks like a one-man army, especially in the bowler friendly pitches. But they are not as dependent as they were in the 90s, when Sachin Tendulkar was the backbone of batting.

There was a time when VVS Laxman, Rahul Dravid, Sachin Tendulkar built a mountain of runs for India.  That team at that time was the best team in the history of Indian Tests.  There are still some players in the Indian team who are very good for Tests.  Such as Cheteshwar Pujara, Ajinkya Rahane, Virat Kohli.  They are individual test experts.  Not without adding Mayank Agarwal's name to them.  There is no denying that Mayank Agarwal is now one of the leading Test players in the Indian team.

[Sithara007]

There was a time when VVS Laxman, Rahul Dravid, Sachin Tendulkar built a mountain of runs for India.  That team at that time was the best team in the history of Indian Tests.  There are still some players in the Indian team who are very good for Tests.  Such as Cheteshwar Pujara, Ajinkya Rahane, Virat Kohli.  They are individual test experts.  Not without adding Mayank Agarwal's name to them.  There is no denying that Mayank Agarwal is now one of the leading Test players in the Indian team.

I don't agree. Laxman, Dravid, Sachin.etc were legendary players. But they failed very frequently while playing abroad, especially in England and Australia. If you check the stats, then you can see that the current Indian team has the highest win percentage for test matches that were played outside the Indian sub-continent. Back then, the batsmen were world class. Now both the batsmen and the bowlers are among the world's best.

[SaShiRaJaVu]

I don't agree. Laxman, Dravid, Sachin.etc were legendary players. But they failed very frequently while playing abroad, especially in England and Australia. If you check the stats, then you can see that the current Indian team has the highest win percentage for test matches that were played outside the Indian sub-continent. Back then, the batsmen were world class. Now both the batsmen and the bowlers are among the world's best.

Since you are talking about stats, do you know Sachin averages 53.2 in Australia and 54.31 in England on the other hand Dravid averages 38.68 in Australia and 60.94 in England while Laxman averages 44.14 in Australia and 34.47 in England. India had good batting line up but the bowlers were weak and if you look at the current team they had the best bowlers in world cricket who are able to trouble any team.

[Juggy777]

I don't agree. Laxman, Dravid, Sachin.etc were legendary players. But they failed very frequently while playing abroad, especially in England and Australia. If you check the stats, then you can see that the current Indian team has the highest win percentage for test matches that were played outside the Indian sub-continent. Back then, the batsmen were world class. Now both the batsmen and the bowlers are among the world's best.

Since you are talking about stats, do you know Sachin averages 53.2 in Australia and 54.31 in England on the other hand Dravid averages 38.68 in Australia and 60.94 in England while Laxman averages 44.14 in Australia and 34.47 in England. India had good batting line up but the bowlers were weak and if you look at the current team they had the best bowlers in world cricket who are able to trouble any team.

@SaShuRaJaVu I’m not a much into stats, but yes these three legendary Indian player’s really used to trouble Australia and England bowlers a lot even in away games. Also Rahul Dravid is called the wall for a reason, and who can forget Laxman’s love for Australian bowler’s because he used to always score against them.

For a batsman who Ian Chappell described aptly through his famous quote- “Team in trouble, who would you turn to other than Dravid- it’s hardly a surprise that one of Dravid’s finest knocks came against a behemoth of an Aussie side that too, at Down Under.

Sources:

https://rapidleaks.com/sports/cricket/flashback-2003-2nd-test-india-australia-rahul-dravid-the-wall/

http://www.holdingwilley.com/article/the-diary/eight-vvs-laxman-classics-vs-australia

[JSRAW]

Dravid's performance ( In England he average 68.80. In Australia 41, he missed 4 centuries there by getting out on 90s 4 times and 63 average in New Zealand. Bad average in South Africa.)


VVS. Laxman's average (44 ,34, 40 , 40 in Australia, England, New Zealand and South Africa respectively)


Sachin's average ( 53, 54, 49, 46 in Australia, England, NZ and South Africa respectively)

[FIFA worldcup]

There was a time when VVS Laxman, Rahul Dravid, Sachin Tendulkar built a mountain of runs for India.  That team at that time was the best team in the history of Indian Tests.  There are still some players in the Indian team who are very good for Tests.  Such as Cheteshwar Pujara, Ajinkya Rahane, Virat Kohli.  They are individual test experts.  Not without adding Mayank Agarwal's name to them.  There is no denying that Mayank Agarwal is now one of the leading Test players in the Indian team.

I don't agree. Laxman, Dravid, Sachin.etc were legendary players. But they failed very frequently while playing abroad, especially in England and Australia. If you check the stats, then you can see that the current Indian team has the highest win percentage for test matches that were played outside the Indian sub-continent. Back then, the batsmen were world class. Now both the batsmen and the bowlers are among the world's best.

Few years back, the Indian team were only known for its batsmen. All the bowlers around the world fear from their strong batting line up but they lack quality bowling due to which they lost many matches. Current Indian team have improved in bowling too and now they have world class bowlers in their team.

[Vishnu.Reang]

Few years back, the Indian team were only known for its batsmen. All the bowlers around the world fear from their strong batting line up but they lack quality bowling due to which they lost many matches. Current Indian team have improved in bowling too and now they have world class bowlers in their team.

I would recommend a small correction. The Indian team was known for the batsmen and for the spin bowlers. The Indian spinners were among the world's best. In the pace bowling department, they were really weak. Back then, they had only one genuine fast bowler (Javagal Srinath) who could bowl at least occasionally at 90mph plus. The remaining bowlers, such as Venkatesh Prasad, Debashish Mohanty.etc were just military medium. Compare it with the case we have now. I can count at least a dozen bowlers, who can be considered as genuine fast bowlers, including Bumrah, Umesh, Ishant, Aaron and Shami.

[SaShiRaJaVu]

~
@SaShuRaJaVu I’m not a much into stats, but yes these three legendary Indian player’s really used to trouble Australia and England bowlers a lot even in away games. Also Rahul Dravid is called the wall for a reason, and who can forget Laxman’s love for Australian bowler’s because he used to always score against them.

The lack of match winning bowlers outside India was the main reason India had a terrible record outside India, India always had great batsman throughout history and India was always a great team in India on the strength of its spinners but over seas you need genuine pace or swing bowlers to pick wickets.

[bryant.coleman]

The lack of match winning bowlers outside India was the main reason India had a terrible record outside India, India always had great batsman throughout history and India was always a great team in India on the strength of its spinners but over seas you need genuine pace or swing bowlers to pick wickets.

Back then no one really cared about the pace bowlers. For home test matches, India used to pick three spinners (in most cases, Kumble/Harbhajan/Murali Kartik) and just one pace bowler (usually Srinath, and later Zaheer Khan). Things started to change around 15 years ago, when more emphasis was given to winning matches abroad. During recent times, I have seen India going with 3 pace bowlers even for the home matches.

[Swordsoffreedom]

The lack of match winning bowlers outside India was the main reason India had a terrible record outside India, India always had great batsman throughout history and India was always a great team in India on the strength of its spinners but over seas you need genuine pace or swing bowlers to pick wickets.

Back then no one really cared about the pace bowlers. For home test matches, India used to pick three spinners (in most cases, Kumble/Harbhajan/Murali Kartik) and just one pace bowler (usually Srinath, and later Zaheer Khan). Things started to change around 15 years ago, when more emphasis was given to winning matches abroad. During recent times, I have seen India going with 3 pace bowlers even for the home matches.

Asian country's pitch are more convenient for spinner bowler. They get some extra advantage. They can take some more wickets than pace bowlers. You will see that most of the successful bowlers of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are spinners. It is foolish for them to have 3 pace bowlers in a home match. Because they do not have a good pace bowler like England and Australia and secondly the pitch is helpful for spinners.

[bryant.coleman]

Back then no one really cared about the pace bowlers. For home test matches, India used to pick three spinners (in most cases, Kumble/Harbhajan/Murali Kartik) and just one pace bowler (usually Srinath, and later Zaheer Khan). Things started to change around 15 years ago, when more emphasis was given to winning matches abroad. During recent times, I have seen India going with 3 pace bowlers even for the home matches.

Asian country's pitch are more convenient for spinnr bowler . They get some extra advantage . They can take some more wickets than pace bowlers.You will see that most of the successful bowlers of India, Pakistan ,Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are spinners. It is foolish for them to have 3 pace bowlers  in a home match . Because they do not have a good pace bowler like England and Australia and secondly the pitch is helpful for spinners

Not all of the grounds. In India, there are grounds such as Mohali and Dharamshala, which offer enough support for the pace bowlers. Same can be said about some of the grounds in Pakistan and Dambulla ground in Sri Lanka. I was not claiming that India usually includes three pacers in all of their home matches. I was just saying that it has happened a few times. Usually India plays their home matches in turning tracks, as their main spinner (Ravichandran Ashwin) loses his venom in other type of surfaces.

[shamimal93]

Few years back, the Indian team were only known for its batsmen. All the bowlers around the world fear from their strong batting line up but they lack quality bowling due to which they lost many matches. Current Indian team have improved in bowling too and now they have world class bowlers in their team.

I could not agree with you because the Indian team still has world class bowlers.  Some bowlers have been injured after playing cricket for some time and this is the reason why there is a shortage of bowlers in the Indian team from time to time.  Do you think Zaheer Khan is not a world class bowler?  Irfan Pathan was not a world class bowler?  Harbhajan Singh Anil Kumble Aren't they world class bowlers?  And now Jaspreet Bhomra, Bhubaneswar Kumar, they are definitely world class players.  With Jubendra Chahal Kuldeep Yadav they are there.

[teosanru]

The lack of match winning bowlers outside India was the main reason India had a terrible record outside India, India always had great batsman throughout history and India was always a great team in India on the strength of its spinners but over seas you need genuine pace or swing bowlers to pick wickets.

Back then no one really cared about the pace bowlers. For home test matches, India used to pick three spinners (in most cases, Kumble/Harbhajan/Murali Kartik) and just one pace bowler (usually Srinath, and later Zaheer Khan). Things started to change around 15 years ago, when more emphasis was given to winning matches abroad. During recent times, I have seen India going with 3 pace bowlers even for the home matches.

Asian country's pitch are more convenient for spinner bowler. They get some extra advantage. They can take some more wickets than pace bowlers. You will see that most of the successful bowlers of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka are spinners. It is foolish for them to have 3 pace bowlers in a home match. Because they do not have a good pace bowler like England and Australia and secondly the pitch is helpful for spinners.

I agree with you about the pitch thing that most of the pitches in subcontinent lack that extra bounce for pacers. But saying that subcontinent team don't have good pacers is absolutely wrong. Pakistan alone have a history of high quality pace bowlers whose list might be larger than that of Australia or England. some of whom even bowled faster than Aussies or english players even on Subcontinent pitches.
India too might not be able to compete with pakistan in terms of pace attack but have had some great pacers like Srinath and Zaheer khan in recent past. Moreover the pacers in the current team are incomparable even a name like Jasprit Bumrah is enough for comparison.
Moreover apart from test cricket the need for pace bowlers has actually changed today. Earlier work of pace bowlers were primarily about swinging with a new ball and reverse swinging with the old one. While now it's about protecting the team in the slog overs which is most important these days. That is why bowlers who are even not that good swingers of the ball yet are performing pretty good.

[bryant.coleman]

I could not agree with you because the Indian team still has world class bowlers.  Some bowlers have been injured after playing cricket for some time and this is the reason why there is a shortage of bowlers in the Indian team from time to time.  Do you think Zaheer Khan is not a world class bowler?  Irfan Pathan was not a world class bowler?  Harbhajan Singh Anil Kumble Aren't they world class bowlers?  And now Jaspreet Bhomra, Bhubaneswar Kumar, they are definitely world class players.  With Jubendra Chahal Kuldeep Yadav they are there.

Having one world class bowler, and having multiple world class bowlers is different. For sure Zaheer was of international class. But most of the time, he was supported by mediocre bowlers such as Tinu Yohannan, Ashish Nehra and Vikram Singh. Irfan Pathan was not exactly a world class bowler. He was good, but played only a few dozen test matches. So Zaheer had to take the sole responsibility of pace bowling, most of the times. The situation has changed now.

[Vishnu.Reang]

I could not agree with you because the Indian team still has world class bowlers.  Some bowlers have been injured after playing cricket for some time and this is the reason why there is a shortage of bowlers in the Indian team from time to time.  Do you think Zaheer Khan is not a world class bowler?  Irfan Pathan was not a world class bowler?  Harbhajan Singh Anil Kumble Aren't they world class bowlers?  And now Jaspreet Bhomra, Bhubaneswar Kumar, they are definitely world class players.  With Jubendra Chahal Kuldeep Yadav they are there.

I would definitely say that the current situation is much better than what we had 10-20 years ago. Now even if one or two of the bowlers are injured, plenty of replacements are available. Previously that was not the case. There were quality replacements available for the batsmen, but there was not enough depth available in the pace bowling department. Check India's performance when Zaheer was out injured.