New Official AMT Thread

[FrictionlessCoin]

I believe the photos of the box show further evidence they did no planning at all, no power supplies, no heat sinks except for 99 cent store ones, and they did not even bother being proactive and have boxes read for shipping the miners!

I suspect the proprietors have absolutely no experience even shipping computers to customers.  I would not be surprised if they even have experience with electronic manufacturing or even basic electronics.  

In the beginning I had hoped that they were just assemblers.  Unfortunately, they took the approach of manufacturing their own boards.  To make matters even worse, they selected Bitmine instead of Technobit.  

[opieum2]

I thought it might be noteworthy to note that bitmine appears to be headed in the same direction about to get sued. Its a more complicated process in Europe but if this becomes widespread enough the governments will clamp down on it. IN the US pretty much every mining company that did preorders (all of them) is now in lawsuit hell.

I've been watching the Bitmine boards.  There are some similarities and differences between how they have interacted with customers.

AMT:

1 - No refunds to be received by anyone
2 - No reliably working miners at the 1.2 TH/s range
3 - No technical support

Bitmine

1 - Refunds have been given to some but not all buyers
2 - They have shipped miners that work reliably under 800 GH/s
3 - They provide some technical support.  I got a backplane from them even though I'm not even a customer!

There is a real difference between a company that does make some effort to help customers.  With the case of AMT,  that assistance is non-existent.

Actually point number 2 is the same thing then. Noone has working miners at the specs advertised even nominal by the manufacturers in both cases.

[opieum2]

I find it ironic they think they are better than "Chinese companies" let me tell you, Chinese companies take way more pride in their work. Even when it comes to the box. Not only do Chinese companies use a proper box, they have the information printed on the box. Something like company name, sizes of items, etc.. They also plan for proper size foam packing that fit the box. I am sure there are many American companies also that do this as well.

Not that I am fixated on how the box looks, but AMT did not even use a real box!

And customer service. They have consistently showed (the Chinese companies) better customer service. The communication might be a bit lacking because of language issues, but they deliver. I shop on aliexpress regularly for electronics equipment. Mostly tablets and such as I do a fair bit of android work. They do great work even the shittiest of tablets comes in the best packaging.

AMT really dropped the ball on this. I still have the box I got my miners in....I picked mine up, that said based on what I am seeing it looks like it could have shipped in that very box too.

[opieum2]

Yes, we're working on the professional aspect now.

1. is definitely a go.
2. Is getting there as long as we can source the heatsinks by the end of the week. (dynatron setup has potential but when it comes to technobit its usually best to keep it as is because that's how it has been designed to work).  
3. Is happening as well but will not be up and running until mid next week, realistically.

Not too many takers for the rest. But we'll include a payback option as well, just for other clients which have not been following this thread.

So here's the next step. We're working on the site now, creating a specific section which defines these options in detail and we've been having the lawyers draft/review them and we'll have the final draft back tomorrow. We just don't want to say/offer something wrong or something that could make the situation worse or who knows how people can spin it  right. Tomorrow afternoon we'll post this section as well as send out a mailer to all clients who would like to review the options. Those of you which have already made a selection or mentioned a preference here have been noted but we'll still need you to officially select the which option you'd like tomorrow as well.

This was posted 2 days ago.    

Waiting for new info.

Right they were committed to providing us an update yesterday. They really needed this to turn the corner...its gotten ridiculous how many times they say something and then don't fulfill. I had hoped being nice about things and keeping order in this thread would be helpful. On the upside now we can focus on just gathering the facts. If we just provide all our experiences here that can be documented and proven, that will help. Communicating is important. And they are not doing that well. Considering the stakes in this is huge for them as a business and the potential legal consequences. Criminal ones could be leveled as well. They are scrambling now to get a working product out the door. They have to explain what happened all those months ago considering their website states they were shipping huge pallets of chips. Seems like shipping chips was there....but the orders for miners were kind of left by the wayside.

It seems like the hardware was not even designed or manufactured until recently. We are now stuck waiting again. I tried working with them hoping to get some results for everyone but I got more of the same runaround. Now they are back to square one. We still have no timeline on any kind of delivery or settlement, they are passing the buck off on to their attorney by saying they will get stuff "first thing in the morning" its 2 days later since their initial announcement. My anger is because they have not once been able to live up to their word. This is absurd to have to even deal with this. They have never been able to deliver on their word once without an excuse first. This is not bad luck. Its poor planning and poor communication.

[mdiggy]

I find it ironic they think they are better than "Chinese companies" let me tell you, Chinese companies take way more pride in their work. Even when it comes to the box. Not only do Chinese companies use a proper box, they have the information printed on the box. Something like company name, sizes of items, etc.. They also plan for proper size foam packing that fit the box. I am sure there are many American companies also that do this as well.

Not that I am fixated on how the box looks, but AMT did not bother to even use an actually box to ship a $6,000 computer!

I completely agree. My dragons shipped directly from factory in China work great! My American AMT miners are 2 months late now....... This round goes to China. They work, they hash, THEY'RE REAL AND I HAVE THEM.

[opieum2]

I find it ironic they think they are better than "Chinese companies" let me tell you, Chinese companies take way more pride in their work. Even when it comes to the box. Not only do Chinese companies use a proper box, they have the information printed on the box. Something like company name, sizes of items, etc.. They also plan for proper size foam packing that fit the box. I am sure there are many American companies also that do this as well.

Not that I am fixated on how the box looks, but AMT did not bother to even use an actually box to ship a $6,000 computer!

I completely agree. My dragons shipped directly from factory in China work great! My American AMT miners are 2 months late now....... This round goes to China. They work, they hash, THEY'RE REAL AND I HAVE THEM.

That point can be applied to pretty much every US company at this point. All the US companies have under-performed and grossly misrepresented their products almost fraudulently. BFL has not released yet and despite cointerra's claims I am questioning whether they really have as many miners out there as they claim to. Since all these US companies have been involved in deception after deception and massive misrepresentations of their products, they should be made examples of to prevent any future companies from pulling the same crap. Sadly settlement does not = judgement. So until one of those companies goes to actual trial we will see nothing that changes the US market. However bringing criminal fraud charges on some of these companies might scare some companies into compliance of the law.

[opieum2]

I have reached a point personally where all I want is working hardware and the appropriate compensation for my hassles so I can move on past this insane drama they seem intent on keeping going. I am getting tired of wondering what the next move will be. I offered to help freely as I normally charge alot and I am sure they cant afford me as it is. But mainly to help get things rolling so that people can get their hardware. But it does not appear despite their words that they have intentions of making things right. Just the minimum to avoid prosecution.

Talk is cheap at this point. Only thing now that will matter are proper actions. I am pissed cause I went to pick up the hardware...I did originally ask to test it at the office...I did not get to go in, plug it in and test it. I get the impression he knew there could be flaws which is why I wound up meeting him at a bar and getting it out of a truck (FYI my GPS app documents my trips for tax purposes and this was one of those business trips I can write off). I have thorough records of the trip I took down there in terms of locations among other records I keep. But I went to a bar, Great American Pub in Narberth. This should be pretty specific info.

Again with all the hassles we are going through and the support we gave them at one point they basically have consistently insulted our intelligence and dignity by consistently making promises and assurances they have not kept once. Now they just signed a design deal with technobit (2 weeks ago only with all these issues, wtf?) So the big question is how long will be the wait this time? and what do we get for our troubles? The hosting option is not something I imagine anyone wants. Because you already have proven as a company you cannot be trusted. We want something concrete. Working miners with a warranty plan or some kind of WRITTEN guarantee against failure. Some sort of support plan should they become insolvent (think how Saturn passed the support over to Pontiac). The hardware at 1.2Ths we have already lost a considerable amount of money as it is because of this on alot of levels. What is AMT going to do to make this right?

[eightcylinders]

[snip]
Talk is cheap at this point. Only thing now that will matter are proper actions. [snip some more]

“So much for vows. Words are wind, and the wind from Manderly’s mouth means no more than the wind escaping out his bottom.”

"“Words are wind. And men will lie to get their way, as any maid could tell you.”

... from A Dance with Dragons

Sorry couldn't resist a little Friday afternoon levity.

For me this is really simple:

(1) AMT provides working miners at 1.2 Th/s each that are 1 w/gh/s or less per specification, AND provides the promised compensation under their MPP

OR

(2) AMT is liquidates its assets in some way and goes out of business, giving us whatever they have in assets in cash or kind (pro rata based on how much each of us paid)

Under option #2, they have to account for what happened to the $6 million or so that we paid so we know there was no fraud. In bankruptcy, they will have to do that anyway so if they are headed that direction and giving us less than we are due, we need to understand what happened, where the money went, where the assets are and how they are being distributed to us.  If I knew that they were giving us everything they could, and that no fraud (e.g., no transfers to shareholders, no bonus payments, no mysterious missing bitcoin, etc.) then I would give Josh credit for being open and honest and allow this to be written off as a huge mistake and loss.

There is no option 3 for AMT.

[eightcylinders]

Anyone have contacts with the SEC?

I have been thinking about that.  The securities laws are very powerful and really the essence of these pre-sale agreements is a highly risky type of investment contract (which is a security).  There is a famous old case which defined an investment contract as:

(1) investment of money
(2) an expectation of profits arising from a common enterprise
(3) which depends solely on the efforts of a promoter or third party

Securities and Exchange Commission vs. W. J. Howey Co., 328 U.S. 93 (1943).  

In the Howey case, the promoter was selling ownership units in a citrus grove, together with a maintenance agreement to farm the citrus and remit the profits to investors.  The Court created the above test to determine that these contracts were "investment contracts" and therefore were subject to securities laws.

I am not a securities lawyer, but it is an interesting parallel.  Here, we invested in a non-existent product that appears to have not even been designed or tested until recently.  The whole point of our investment was to be able to use AMT's machines, developed with our money, to farm bitcoins.  Our $6 million (more or less) funded acquisition of the A1 chips, development of a (non-working) backplane, and who knows what else.    Our expectation of profits from this joint project (which was the only purpose of investing, to generate bitcoins) was clearly dependent entirely on AMT.  If AMT was hosting, it would be almost exactly on point with Howey, but even in the absence of hosting it seems a compelling idea.

Just a thought for those of you who have already gone the warpath route.  I am still waiting for a response from AMT before I decide to proceed with more aggressive actions.

[opieum2]

Incredibly useful parallel. Thanks for that. I saw others but that's the best one to use in this.

[sabre]

AMT, you need to read this article and see how many parallels you have with this company.


HashFast Cuts 50% of Staff, Denies Bankruptcy Rumors
http://www.coindesk.com/hashfast-cuts-50-of-staff-denies-bankruptcy-rumors/


Some excerpts...
HashFast is currently embroiled in two federal fraud lawsuits and five arbitration cases that allege the company is guilty of breach of contract and fraud related to issues stemming from production delays.

...
The pivot, however, may do little to assuage the company’s disappointed customers, some of whom have started a website to detail setbacks in production at the California company.

...
Joe Russell indicated that as part of the changes, HashFast is also looking to become more effective at communicating to the public and its customer base.

...
HashFast noted that it has been converting its existing system and board orders to ASICs orders, even for those who are currently seeking legal action.

AMT, when are you going to start communicating  

[opieum2]

hey no need to drag JZ and Beyonce into this lol....jk but yea you make a good point.

[YourPalToots]

someone should make a AMT LOST REVENUE website and have a ticking total similar to the national debt clocks like http://www.usadebtclock.com/

[mrpark]

it's not that complicated to calculate lost revenue. Historical price of Bitcoin can be looked up on a hourly/daily/weekly basis. Should be about $3,000 worth.

[TheRealSteve]

You have to factor in electricty as well as the unpredictability of what the earnings would of been.

Impossible to say you would of mined so and so amount of BTC since February, if you had a working miner by then.

Long time train wreck viewer here, and I'll leave the main subject matter to the people actually involved, but on this particular front: no, not really all that impossible.  It's impossible to predict for the future, but in this case you would only have to deal with historical data.  If you've got your theoretical hash rate, a pool's historical hash rate, their solved blocks, shares, their fee, and all that jazz, then you can certainly get a pretty good estimate of the BTC payout you would have gotten at that pool when not taking into account that your specific miner could have been one to solve one or more blocks.  You pick this as favorable to you as you can find along with a few slightly less favorable scenarios, and the other party would have to present the least favorable scenarios - and it's pretty much guaranteed that all of the ones that are reasonable are still going to be better than the scenario of under-performing, dead or undelivered miners.  If the matter of 'potential lost revenue' comes to bear, I'm sure advisers will be asking exactly for that sort of information, and then some, and have people who consider it their passion to run numbers, run the numbers.

[Squeeky62]

Hi AMT. Can you just like buy me a miner from another company? Then we can call it even and you get to keep the majority of my $6000?

[NotFuzzyWarm]

Hi AMT. Can you just like buy me a miner from another company? Then we can call it even and you get to keep the majority of my $6000?

Been trying that for ages with them. Heck, they sending me one Antminer s2 would let them keep almost 1/2 as profit with the $4,089 I paid for a lowly 520... Even if they are under contract with Bitmine.ch to exclusively deal with A1 hardware, pretty sure that given the state of thing all restrictions like that are or should be off.

[opieum2]

Hi AMT. Can you just like buy me a miner from another company? Then we can call it even and you get to keep the majority of my $6000?

Been trying that for ages with them. Heck, they sending me one Antminer s2 would let them keep almost 1/2 as profit with the $4,089 I paid for a lowly 520... Even if they are under contract with Bitmine.ch to exclusively deal with A1 hardware, pretty sure that given the state of thing all restrictions like that are or should be off.

I would actually be ok with this only if I got two which is the equivalent of 5100 or so. They still get to pocket 400 bucks (more if the 400 per miner discount gets applied)

[Squeeky62]

Hi AMT. Can you just like buy me a miner from another company? Then we can call it even and you get to keep the majority of my $6000?

Been trying that for ages with them. Heck, they sending me one Antminer s2 would let them keep almost 1/2 as profit with the $4,089 I paid for a lowly 520... Even if they are under contract with Bitmine.ch to exclusively deal with A1 hardware, pretty sure that given the state of thing all restrictions like that are or should be off.

Well I just want satisfaction since we have been waiting so long and this way we can be getting what we paid for and a little extra, also we will be saving them money so they can stay in business and try to figure out the problems with their equipment so they can run a successful business.

[NotFuzzyWarm]

I rather wonder how the 1st 1/2 of the year sales of some component makers are going to do from the overall miner mess. Safe bet that a lot of critical parts are pretty tapped out like Vcore buck inductors, the  A1 uses 6 per board other chip designs use similar number per-watt needed, the multitude of power chip caps, etc. Multiply that by 5 boards for 1TH system and then by how many hundreds (thousands?) of orders from AMT, Bitmine, Innosilicon/Dragon, etc. Not to mention again the other ASIC rig makers using other chips.

With all of them hitting the market at the same time - eep. The supply chain doesn't have that much of a surge buffer for power components if everyone waits until the last minute to order. Worse, as AMT found out a component from one maker is not necessarily the same as one from a different maker. Ya gotta look at *all* the data in the spec sheets not just a 7 column summary of family min/max values... Capacity from trusted and design-proven component makers is there but takes time to catch up.