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Author Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency  (Read 4650704 times)
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May 13, 2014, 06:57:05 PM
 #1601

There are enough idiots out there with computers and who run unpatched software or download obvious malware that it's not hard to make botnets.

This is one reason I've always felt that if botnets mine (which for the most part they won't), this is a good thing not a bad thing. It pulls the cost of computer owner's negligence back to the owners themselves, incentivizing them to clean up their act. Botnets that mostly attack other people without costing the computer owner anything are much worse.


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May 13, 2014, 07:10:25 PM
 #1602

testnet peer: 198.199.79.100:46080
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May 13, 2014, 07:12:39 PM
 #1603

Without saying too much, let me put it this way: An intelligent botnet owner will not abuse their bots. For example, they would mine on a quarter of the CPU, or half, until the system was idle. Then they would use all of the CPU. Users who have slow computers either run malware scans or reinstall, and if they can't, they find someone who can. Happy bots means a happy botnet owner.

What you say is true, but most computers these days shut off when they're idle. The default settings in Windows shut off after an hour or something, and most users never change default settings (blinking 12 effect).  And mining on a quarter or half of a CPU when not idle means the botnet has just become that much smaller.

But the issue is more fundamental. If owners of insecure computers have higher electricity bills, they will be incentivized to clean up their computers, or to buy a service to do that for them, or buy computers with a lower risk of being infected. The market will sort this out. Non-consumptive botnets are worse, because they give no real incentive to the only person with a real ability to do anything about it, the computer owner. All the costs are borne by others.








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May 13, 2014, 07:18:06 PM
 #1604

I would agree with you on that. ASICs equal almost certain centralization, while CPUs may cause centralization. However, I think a better solution is GPU mining. Why? Because most people can do it, and high-end GPUs are not so widespread among the computer-using idiots. The obvious rebuttal to this is that a rich entity can run many GPUs.

No, the obvious rebuttal is that this provides little to no botnet resistance. GPUs are mainstream and are becoming more so, and increasingly merged with CPUs anyway. An algorithm that runs well on GPUs just will be botnet mined on GPUs if a CPU algorithm will be botnet mined. The idea that most mainstream computers that would be infected by botnets don't have a GPU or a decent GPU is rapidly becoming obsolete. The main disadvantage of a GPU-friendly algorithm is that the increased parallelism of GPUs may lend itself such an algorithm more readily taking the next step to ASICs.


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May 13, 2014, 07:26:59 PM
 #1605

About the power bills, no one will notice the power their CPU would use running at 100% when they're not using the system. It's just not enough to raise eyebrows, unless your power is stupid expensive. So no, they won't have an incentive to clean up their computers, because if done properly, they will never know their computers need to be cleaned.

You're looking at the microscopic picture. The bigger picture will be that people will come to learn (not necessarily through their own personal experience) that upgrading their computer or installing better malware protection as something that often saves money on power bills, or that more secure computers "use less power" (even if it isn't clear why), or that shutting down their computers really saves a lot on power in practice (when in theory it shouldn't) or some other such emergent economic effects that are hard to know in advance. Costs that accrue to the person responsible for and able to correct the problem can't really be such a bad thing in economic terms. It is certainly better than costs accruing to others.

Let's not go back and forth on the Monero thread though. Monero is a CPU coin for now, for better or worse, and that isn't going to change by design. It might change if people develop a good GPU miner for it or if it becomes successful enough for ASICs to be feasible. The CryptoNote designers intended for this not to happen. Whether they succeed or fail only time will tell.


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May 13, 2014, 07:34:23 PM
 #1606

About the power bills, no one will notice the power their CPU would use running at 100% when they're not using the system. It's just not enough to raise eyebrows, unless your power is stupid expensive. So no, they won't have an incentive to clean up their computers, because if done properly, they will never know their computers need to be cleaned.

You're looking at the microscopic picture. The bigger picture will be that people will come to learn (not necessarily through their own personal experience) that upgrading their computer or installing better malware protection as something that often saves money on power bills, or that more secure computers "use less power" (even if it isn't clear why), or that shutting down their computers really saves a lot on power in practice (when in theory it shouldn't) or some other such emergent economic effects that are hard to know in advance. Costs that accrue to the person responsible for and able to correct the problem can't really be such a bad thing in economic terms. It is certainly better than costs accruing to others.

Let's not go back and forth on the Monero thread though. Monero is a CPU coin for now, for better or worse, and that isn't going to change by design. It might change if people develop a good GPU miner for it or if it becomes successful enough for ASICs to be feasible. The CryptoNote designers intended for this not to happen. Whether they succeed or fail only time will tell.


Hmm... I doubt that people will come to learn anything of the sort, but I do think that they will grow old and die, replaced by a more tech-savvy generation. So perhaps you are right.

Yes that is definitely part of it, but even the actual old fogeys become somewhat more tech savvy over time (meaning decades). I'm old enough to remember when grandma literally could not turn on a computer, now she is at least on Facebook.

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May 13, 2014, 08:29:25 PM
 #1607

What is the max supply of this coin? I didn't see it in the OP. And is there only one exchange?
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May 13, 2014, 08:40:10 PM
 #1608

What is the max supply of this coin? I didn't see it in the OP. And is there only one exchange?

It's 18.4 million (given in the OP), but a minimum subsidy will likely implemented so that there's a very slow inflation starting in about 8 years. Yes, there's only one exchange because this is not based on Bitcoin so it takes some effort to integrate.
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May 13, 2014, 08:43:50 PM
 #1609

There's now a giveaway going on at Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/25h70g/giveaway_1400_mro_28_btc_for_free/
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May 13, 2014, 09:13:04 PM
 #1610

hahaha, there is actually a file called slow-hash.c!

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/commit/7620d55e6c9d9d625740004c86de17354ccceed2

it's almost as if somebody wanted others to optimize it...
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May 13, 2014, 09:23:41 PM
 #1611

hahaha, there is actually a file called slow-hash.c!

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/commit/7620d55e6c9d9d625740004c86de17354ccceed2

it's almost as if somebody wanted others to optimize it...

I'm just guessing (the cryptonote developers are mysterious so usually all we can do is guess) it's called slow hash because it is intended to be used a memory-hard proof-of-work, as opposed to other (faster) hashes used for digests.


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May 13, 2014, 09:53:47 PM
 #1612

hahaha, there is actually a file called slow-hash.c!

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/commit/7620d55e6c9d9d625740004c86de17354ccceed2

it's almost as if somebody wanted others to optimize it...

I'm just guessing (the cryptonote developers are mysterious so usually all we can do is guess) it's called slow hash because it is intended to be used a memory-hard proof-of-work, as opposed to other (faster) hashes used for digests.

Oh sure, come up with a totally reasonable explanation for my find  Grin
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May 13, 2014, 11:24:40 PM
 #1613

hahaha, there is actually a file called slow-hash.c!

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/commit/7620d55e6c9d9d625740004c86de17354ccceed2

it's almost as if somebody wanted others to optimize it...

I'm just guessing (the cryptonote developers are mysterious so usually all we can do is guess) it's called slow hash because it is intended to be used a memory-hard proof-of-work, as opposed to other (faster) hashes used for digests.

Oh sure, come up with a totally reasonable explanation for my find  Grin

your find is at least a week old if you check the thread and thats a pretty reasonable explanation...
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May 13, 2014, 11:27:37 PM
 #1614

hahaha, there is actually a file called slow-hash.c!

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/commit/7620d55e6c9d9d625740004c86de17354ccceed2

it's almost as if somebody wanted others to optimize it...

I'm just guessing (the cryptonote developers are mysterious so usually all we can do is guess) it's called slow hash because it is intended to be used a memory-hard proof-of-work, as opposed to other (faster) hashes used for digests.

Oh sure, come up with a totally reasonable explanation for my find  Grin

your find is at least a week old if you check the thread and thats a pretty reasonable explanation...

That too.
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May 13, 2014, 11:48:48 PM
Last edit: May 14, 2014, 12:34:51 AM by David Latapie
 #1615

I agree completely and withdraw my previous attitude. I thought transparency of the issue would be smart, especially considering interested parties have already been accused of "conspiring" behind the community's back. I also wanted knowledgable followers of the thread to be aware of the issue, especially if they have interest in MRO. I don't mind where the discussion takes place, as long as the people in this thread to know it's taking place.
I suggest regularly pasting a text like "Reminder, for those interested in the deep economics issues that monero is trying to solve, please read  Monero economy". Or something like that, you get the idea (The OP has so much info I am not sure people would get it - or maybe people interested in it are the same people that use the whole OP, then issue solved).

Okay, one feature we REALLY need in simplewallet is a command history buffer. It doesn't have to be persistent; it can start with an empty buffer every time. Having to retype things kinda sucks. And I automatically press the up arrow and get garbage that I have to erase.
Duly noted, you are not the only one to wish for it!

Monero: the first crytocurrency to bring bank secrecy and net neutrality to the blockchain.HyperStake: pushing the limits of staking.
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May 14, 2014, 12:10:23 AM
 #1616

Okay, one feature we REALLY need in simplewallet is a command history buffer. It doesn't have to be persistent; it can start with an empty buffer every time. Having to retype things kinda sucks. And I automatically press the up arrow and get garbage that I have to erase.
Duly noted, you are not the only one to wish for it!

Use rlwrap

$ rlwrap ./simpleminer --wallet mywallet
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May 14, 2014, 12:18:13 AM
 #1617

Okay, one feature we REALLY need in simplewallet is a command history buffer. It doesn't have to be persistent; it can start with an empty buffer every time. Having to retype things kinda sucks. And I automatically press the up arrow and get garbage that I have to erase.
Duly noted, you are not the only one to wish for it!

Use rlwrap

$ rlwrap ./simpleminer --wallet mywallet


So, install a third-party piece of software to fix a bug in Monero because the devs aren't doing it?

Not third party Ubuntu. Standard package. Not sure about other distros though.

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May 14, 2014, 12:19:48 AM
 #1618

It doesn't even COMPILE on Arch.
I am on Arch (well, Manjaro). Use http://bit.ly/monerostarterpack and get the Linux binaries - they are compiled on Ubuntu but work on Arch. I am the maintainer, by the way.

Monero: the first crytocurrency to bring bank secrecy and net neutrality to the blockchain.HyperStake: pushing the limits of staking.
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May 14, 2014, 12:20:16 AM
 #1619

Anyone knows how many coins there are? Couldn't find the explorer.

cheers

number of blocks*17.2 . Something around that.

This is the only info I am able to find about current supply. Can anyone confirm this?
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May 14, 2014, 12:21:41 AM
Last edit: May 14, 2014, 12:36:06 AM by David Latapie
 #1620

there is only Windows 64-bit blockchain in the OP
will it work for 32-bit?
No, it won't. Please someone with a fully-sync'd 32-bits blockchain upload it, I will add it to the pack.

Monero: the first crytocurrency to bring bank secrecy and net neutrality to the blockchain.HyperStake: pushing the limits of staking.
Reputation threadFree bitcoins: reviews, hints…: freebitco.in, freedoge.co.in, qoinpro
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