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Author Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency  (Read 4464121 times)
smooth
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February 02, 2015, 08:08:55 AM
 #19601

Calling BinaryFate

This sadly seems the consensus at r/bitcoin

"[–]dangero 29 points 7 hours ago
You can't track every single satoshi. Multiple inputs can be combined into a single output. At that point you cannot say which satoshi came from which input. Once they're mixed like that you can't separate them again and say which part came from where. It's like pouring multiple smaller cups of water into one larger cup. Once they are combined and mixed you can't provably separate them again. Even if you pour half out into another cup, who is to say where that half originally came from? Bitcoin is absolutely fungible."

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2uew9j/bitcoin_is_a_finite_resource_like_land_if_you_own/

I know it's wrong, but I'm not sure I know how wrong it is.

The reddit poster is correct. Once you make a new transaction, you cannot tell which satoshi in the output came from which input. You can therefore not "follow" the way an individual satoshi took from its creation through the blockchain.

Now, keep in mind that this doesn't keep you from drawing some conclusions about the transactions/senders themselves. Even if we cannot track a single satoshi, by combining knowledge about multiple transactions you can sometimes figure out who sent what to whom.

It is simpler than that. Unless some form of mixing is being used, every input of a tranasction has the same owner. So every such transaction and every output is directly linkable to that owner. If the owner is using stolen bitcoin or some other form of "bad" bitcoin then every output of that transaction is tainted.

If mixing is used, then you have the issues of effectiveness (are enough people using it at the same time, are their transactions of similar size) and trust (is the mixer going to steal your coins or keep records of which inputs correspond with which outputs).



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February 02, 2015, 08:12:03 AM
 #19602

What is the estimated maximum transactions per second (TPS) of the monero network / protocol?

i've bitcoin is currently 7 TPS. Monero is?Huh

There is no hard protocol-defined limit the way there is in Bitcoin. In the original Cryptonote white paper, hard coded constants are given as a reason to want to improve on Bitcoin. (Sections 2.4 and 6.2.2 at least.)

What the limits turn out to be in practice will a function of technology (bandwidth, storage, etc.) and how it is used.

Keep in mind that the limits in Bitcoin are not limitations of the protocol either. They are limits built into the reference client in order to prevent spam, and can be easily lifted ("easily" is of course a matter of discussion, see the debate around the max block size and the required fork Wink )

I disagree. The protocol as currently defined (by the code, though certainly the limit is also well known and well documented too) requires that all blocks be rejected if they exceed 1 MB. If you don't do this your blocks will be rejected (even if they aren't > 1 MB, if they build on blocks that are). It is not simply a matter of the reference client not creating 1 MB blocks itself. Every other client must follow the same rule or its blocks will be rejected. Even if a non-mining node doesn't create blocks but relays non-conforming blocks, it will be dropped and banned, so to participate in the network every relay node must also apply the same rule.

The reason a hard fork is needed is to change the protocol. That does not apply to Monero.



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February 02, 2015, 09:23:36 AM
 #19603

Have a great SuperBowl day guys! Smiley

To you too. I wish they won't run it on a Saturday afternoon in the US, as that makes it the night to Monday for Europe and Africa, which is just very inconvenient. Why not Saturday afternoon? Sad

Yeah, that doesn't make sense. Idunno?

OK, Too lazy to setup irc for tiperino, So any Seahawk fan that I trust wants to bet with me on superbowl?

I have 700 XMR and will put it on my pats straight up. No lines no gambling adjustments just straight up winner take all.

Have a great SuperBowl day guys! Smiley


well I don't know much about handegg, but I'd be willing to bet 100XMR on the seahawks  Cool

deal?

Well I don't know you but your a hero member with no neg so I don't see why I can't take your word.

Your on, GL and Just an FYI, I called Wilson as a most underrated probable great in his rookie year (When everyone else was Keapernick crazy) because he's one smart bastard! Cheesy


gonna be a great game.

Anyone else speak up soon as I'll be leaving in an hour or so.

600 XMR left

ok, cool. gl dude!  Smiley

btw. since I'm in germany don't be surprised if I won't be online directly after the game, pretty sure I'll fall asleep while watching.

I'll be at casino for who knows how long so I will take awhile to pay as well. I'll be back sometime between tonight and Friday depending on how the Poker tables are treating me. Cheesy



congrats dude!  Cool shall I use the adress in your siganture to send the funds too?

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February 02, 2015, 10:00:31 AM
 #19604

How about a software upgrade where the software client replaces any user generated transaction's mixin parameter with 3, if the user does not enter a mixin or if mixin is less than 3

This will not require a hard fork.


I was looking at simplewallet.cpp but I'm not sure exactly where the code change would be https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/blob/master/src/simplewallet/simplewallet.cpp
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February 02, 2015, 10:18:07 AM
 #19605

Calling BinaryFate

This sadly seems the consensus at r/bitcoin

"[–]dangero 29 points 7 hours ago
You can't track every single satoshi. Multiple inputs can be combined into a single output. At that point you cannot say which satoshi came from which input. Once they're mixed like that you can't separate them again and say which part came from where. It's like pouring multiple smaller cups of water into one larger cup. Once they are combined and mixed you can't provably separate them again. Even if you pour half out into another cup, who is to say where that half originally came from? Bitcoin is absolutely fungible."

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2uew9j/bitcoin_is_a_finite_resource_like_land_if_you_own/

I know it's wrong, but I'm not sure I know how wrong it is.

Quote
First of all, typically you can assume it is the same entity that had control over all inputs, if they include them in the same transaction.

Anyway, what you describe is true, and is technically the way bitcoin works. It means you cannot trace back every single satoshis to a given initial block X, and know their full history until they've reached their current destination. It does make bitcoin a little bit fungible, since you can't have perfect knowledge at the level of the smallest atomic values. Agree with you up to this point.
Now I disagree with your conclusion: you explain rightfully that bitcoin is at least a little bit fungible and conclude that it is thus fungible. Sophist logic to me. Unlike my fate, you cannot think of fungibility as being only a binary attribute. If it were, and I would follow the same logic as you do, I could easily demonstrate that bitcoin is not perfectly fungible, and would conclude that therefore it is not fungible at all. (A simple example of a drug dealer sending you bitcoins from a wallet later seized by authorities would do it...).

Fungibility is a complex property in the case of digital currencies. I don't think it's even just a linear scale on which you could "place" them, let alone as I said just a binary answer "yes it is", "no it is not". What is sure is that there is a very common overestimation of how strong bitcoin's fungibility actually is.

Think of it practically: if bitcoin's fungibility is already so good it suits all our needs, why do we have to trust mixers/tumblers that cost us money? If bitcoin's fungibility is already so good it suits all our needs, why do we have A. Poelstra and G. Maxwell working on strong and fundamental improvements? (see http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2oh7vq/toward_unlinkable_bitcoin_transactions_andrew/)

Monero's privacy and therefore fungibility are MUCH stronger than Bitcoin's. 
This makes Monero a better candidate to deserve the term "digital cash".
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February 02, 2015, 10:22:48 AM
 #19606

I think we tend to see less completely blind bitcoiners "bitcoin is completely fungible and anonymous" as before. But more and more "if you take sufficient precautions, you can hide your traces". Basically they're saying "if *I* can't trace something, therefore *nobody else* can, now and forever". Which is surprisingly naive.

Btw, we must be careful, I fear soon enough we'll see some "if you don't do evil, bitcoin is sufficiently private", which is a dangerous line of thoughts.

Monero's privacy and therefore fungibility are MUCH stronger than Bitcoin's. 
This makes Monero a better candidate to deserve the term "digital cash".
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February 02, 2015, 10:29:52 AM
 #19607

How about a software upgrade where the software client replaces any user generated transaction's mixin parameter with 3, if the user does not enter a mixin or if mixin is less than 3

This will not require a hard fork.


I was looking at simplewallet.cpp but I'm not sure exactly where the code change would be https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/blob/master/src/simplewallet/simplewallet.cpp

You could implement something like that around line 1077, which is where fake_outs_count gets parsed from the transfer command.

However, it is a bit more complex to do right because there are cases where it is impossible to mix because there aren't enough outputs of the same size. This mostly happens with dust-type outputs but can also happen with large amounts. So in that case (maybe after a few tries because sometimes that helps) you would want to reduce the mix factor, maybe after getting confirmation from the user.

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February 02, 2015, 02:38:34 PM
 #19608

I think we tend to see less completely blind bitcoiners "bitcoin is completely fungible and anonymous" as before. But more and more "if you take sufficient precautions, you can hide your traces". Basically they're saying "if *I* can't trace something, therefore *nobody else* can, now and forever". Which is surprisingly naive.

Btw, we must be careful, I fear soon enough we'll see some "if you don't do evil, bitcoin is sufficiently private", which is a dangerous line of thoughts.


Thanks BinaryFate and Smooth, good lessons in the minutia of fungibility.

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February 02, 2015, 03:04:54 PM
 #19609

I think we tend to see less completely blind bitcoiners "bitcoin is completely fungible and anonymous" as before. But more and more "if you take sufficient precautions, you can hide your traces". Basically they're saying "if *I* can't trace something, therefore *nobody else* can, now and forever". Which is surprisingly naive.

Btw, we must be careful, I fear soon enough we'll see some "if you don't do evil, bitcoin is sufficiently private", which is a dangerous line of thoughts.


Just want re-iterate the bold part. The "if your doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide" is the tosh that the governments have been feeding the masses for years in their bid for mass surveillance, a global government and  police states.
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February 02, 2015, 03:25:37 PM
 #19610

next wave of investments will be towards bitcoin blockchain tracking and analytics for sure...

err.. this is getting a bit obvious now, to not say ridiculous: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2uin7s/former_nsa_intelligence_agent_raises_nearly_1/
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February 02, 2015, 03:31:26 PM
 #19611

next wave of investments will be towards bitcoin blockchain tracking and analytics for sure...

err.. this is getting a bit obvious now, to not say ridiculous: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2uin7s/former_nsa_intelligence_agent_raises_nearly_1/

r/bitcoin, "But I really, really, really want Bitcoin to be anonymous. Did I mention really?"

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February 02, 2015, 04:24:39 PM
 #19612

next wave of investments will be towards bitcoin blockchain tracking and analytics for sure...

err.. this is getting a bit obvious now, to not say ridiculous: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2uin7s/former_nsa_intelligence_agent_raises_nearly_1/

r/bitcoin, "But I really, really, really want Bitcoin to be anonymous. Did I mention really?"

Bitcoin and Monero will play the Good Cop and the Bad Cop, respectively, for the global oligarchy, and vice versa, for the rest of us.
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February 02, 2015, 07:42:08 PM
 #19613

fluffypony & David Latapie & all the core team, may be you find this interesting:

Quote
Sophia is an embeddable, transactional key-value database.

It has unique architecture that was created as a result of research and reconsideration primary algorithmic constraints of Log-file based data structures, such as LSM-tree. (see architecture)

Sophia is designed for fast write (append-only) and read (range query-optimized, adaptive architecture) small to medium-sized key-values.
------

* Full ACID compliancy

* Multi-Version Concurrency Control (MVCC) engine

* Pure Append-Only

* Multi-databases support (Single environment and WAL)

* Multi-Statement and Single-Statement Transactions (SERIALIZED view, multi-databases)

* Multi-threaded (Client access and Engine scalability)

* Consistent Cursors

* Point-in-Time Snapshots

* Asynchronous Online/Hot Backup

* Easy to use (Clean and functional API)

* Easy to integrate (Native support of using as storage engine)

* Easy to write bindings (FFI-friendly, API designed to be stable in future)

* Easy to built-in (Amalgamated, only two C files needed for work)

* Implemented as small C-written library with zero dependencies

* BSD Licensed

http://sphia.org/
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February 02, 2015, 07:47:49 PM
 #19614

ZERO DEPENDENCIES!!! music to my ears.

< Track your bitcoins! > < Track them again! > <<< [url=https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qomqt/what_a_landmark_legal_case_from_mid1700s_scotland/] What is fungibility? >>> 46P88uZ4edEgsk7iKQUGu2FUDYcdHm2HtLFiGLp1inG4e4f9PTb4mbHWYWFZGYUeQidJ8hFym2WUmWc p34X8HHmFS2LXJkf <<< Free subdomains at moneroworld.com!! >>> <<< If you don't want to run your own node, point your wallet to node.moneroworld.com, and get connected to a random node! @@@@ FUCK ALL THE PROFITEERS! PROOF OF WORK OR ITS A SCAM !!! @@@@
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February 02, 2015, 10:17:14 PM
 #19615

To foster donation to the development fund, you can add donate.monero.cc to you signature (without a hyperlink).
But what is people mistake it for a URL?
Now they'll have a landing page: donate.monero.cc

(yes, I know, it is raw. This is on purpose)

Depending on when you'll read this, the page may not be ready yet. Meanwhile, you can preview it here: http://monero.cc/donate

Eventually, there might be a real page, but nothing for sure - donation page might be better somewhere else.

Monero: the first crytocurrency to bring bank secrecy and net neutrality to the blockchain.HyperStake: pushing the limits of staking.
Reputation threadFree bitcoins: reviews, hints…: freebitco.in, freedoge.co.in, qoinpro
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February 02, 2015, 10:45:53 PM
 #19616

next wave of investments will be towards bitcoin blockchain tracking and analytics for sure...

err.. this is getting a bit obvious now, to not say ridiculous: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2uin7s/former_nsa_intelligence_agent_raises_nearly_1/

the big question is if they find an equilibrium between consumer protection and not-leading-into-a-fungibility-crisis.

I do not know if bitcoin survives the next 10-15 years but it is leading into a completely different direction than it was once thought of.

If that is for the good or the bad of mass adoption - we will see.
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February 02, 2015, 11:42:03 PM
 #19617

Cross posting David's post:

i registered because i see the patern, we are still largely ignored, monero is fundamentally better than bitcoin but still ignored by everybody.

Well, let's see who is speaking high of Monero or CryptoNote in general and has some reputation.

I've seen worse ignorance.

More information: Why Monero matters, The Three Pillars of Monero

Monero's privacy and therefore fungibility are MUCH stronger than Bitcoin's. 
This makes Monero a better candidate to deserve the term "digital cash".
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February 03, 2015, 12:45:34 AM
 #19618

Cross posting David's post:

Well, let's see who is speaking high of Monero or CryptoNote in general and has some reputation.

I've seen worse ignorance.

More information: Why Monero matters, The Three Pillars of Monero


Good post, didn't know Monero already passed the "peer-review" finals.
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February 03, 2015, 12:52:05 AM
 #19619

So when running a node does it auto store the block chain every 12 hours?
 

Monerohash.com   U.S. Mining Pool
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February 03, 2015, 12:54:32 AM
 #19620

So when running a node does it auto store the block chain every 12 hours?

Yes or when you exit or type save
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