Bitcoin Forum
February 24, 2019, 04:27:42 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.17.1 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 ... 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 936 937 938 939 940 941 942 943 944 945 946 947 948 949 950 951 952 953 954 955 956 957 958 959 960 961 962 963 964 965 966 967 968 969 970 971 972 973 974 975 976 977 978 [979] 980 981 982 983 984 985 986 987 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 ... 2033 »
  Print  
Author Topic: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency  (Read 4541405 times)
binaryFate
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372
Merit: 1001


Still wild and free


View Profile
February 02, 2015, 10:18:07 AM
 #19561

Calling BinaryFate

This sadly seems the consensus at r/bitcoin

"[–]dangero 29 points 7 hours ago
You can't track every single satoshi. Multiple inputs can be combined into a single output. At that point you cannot say which satoshi came from which input. Once they're mixed like that you can't separate them again and say which part came from where. It's like pouring multiple smaller cups of water into one larger cup. Once they are combined and mixed you can't provably separate them again. Even if you pour half out into another cup, who is to say where that half originally came from? Bitcoin is absolutely fungible."

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2uew9j/bitcoin_is_a_finite_resource_like_land_if_you_own/

I know it's wrong, but I'm not sure I know how wrong it is.

Quote
First of all, typically you can assume it is the same entity that had control over all inputs, if they include them in the same transaction.

Anyway, what you describe is true, and is technically the way bitcoin works. It means you cannot trace back every single satoshis to a given initial block X, and know their full history until they've reached their current destination. It does make bitcoin a little bit fungible, since you can't have perfect knowledge at the level of the smallest atomic values. Agree with you up to this point.
Now I disagree with your conclusion: you explain rightfully that bitcoin is at least a little bit fungible and conclude that it is thus fungible. Sophist logic to me. Unlike my fate, you cannot think of fungibility as being only a binary attribute. If it were, and I would follow the same logic as you do, I could easily demonstrate that bitcoin is not perfectly fungible, and would conclude that therefore it is not fungible at all. (A simple example of a drug dealer sending you bitcoins from a wallet later seized by authorities would do it...).

Fungibility is a complex property in the case of digital currencies. I don't think it's even just a linear scale on which you could "place" them, let alone as I said just a binary answer "yes it is", "no it is not". What is sure is that there is a very common overestimation of how strong bitcoin's fungibility actually is.

Think of it practically: if bitcoin's fungibility is already so good it suits all our needs, why do we have to trust mixers/tumblers that cost us money? If bitcoin's fungibility is already so good it suits all our needs, why do we have A. Poelstra and G. Maxwell working on strong and fundamental improvements? (see http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2oh7vq/toward_unlinkable_bitcoin_transactions_andrew/)

Monero's privacy and therefore fungibility are MUCH stronger than Bitcoin's. 
This makes Monero a better candidate to deserve the term "digital cash".
1550982462
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1550982462

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1550982462
Reply with quote  #2

1550982462
Report to moderator
1550982462
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1550982462

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1550982462
Reply with quote  #2

1550982462
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1550982462
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1550982462

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1550982462
Reply with quote  #2

1550982462
Report to moderator
1550982462
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1550982462

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1550982462
Reply with quote  #2

1550982462
Report to moderator
1550982462
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1550982462

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1550982462
Reply with quote  #2

1550982462
Report to moderator
binaryFate
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372
Merit: 1001


Still wild and free


View Profile
February 02, 2015, 10:22:48 AM
 #19562

I think we tend to see less completely blind bitcoiners "bitcoin is completely fungible and anonymous" as before. But more and more "if you take sufficient precautions, you can hide your traces". Basically they're saying "if *I* can't trace something, therefore *nobody else* can, now and forever". Which is surprisingly naive.

Btw, we must be careful, I fear soon enough we'll see some "if you don't do evil, bitcoin is sufficiently private", which is a dangerous line of thoughts.

Monero's privacy and therefore fungibility are MUCH stronger than Bitcoin's. 
This makes Monero a better candidate to deserve the term "digital cash".
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2044
Merit: 1077



View Profile
February 02, 2015, 10:29:52 AM
 #19563

How about a software upgrade where the software client replaces any user generated transaction's mixin parameter with 3, if the user does not enter a mixin or if mixin is less than 3

This will not require a hard fork.


I was looking at simplewallet.cpp but I'm not sure exactly where the code change would be https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/blob/master/src/simplewallet/simplewallet.cpp

You could implement something like that around line 1077, which is where fake_outs_count gets parsed from the transfer command.

However, it is a bit more complex to do right because there are cases where it is impossible to mix because there aren't enough outputs of the same size. This mostly happens with dust-type outputs but can also happen with large amounts. So in that case (maybe after a few tries because sometimes that helps) you would want to reduce the mix factor, maybe after getting confirmation from the user.

generalizethis
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1638
Merit: 1023


Facts are more efficient than fud


View Profile WWW
February 02, 2015, 02:38:34 PM
 #19564

I think we tend to see less completely blind bitcoiners "bitcoin is completely fungible and anonymous" as before. But more and more "if you take sufficient precautions, you can hide your traces". Basically they're saying "if *I* can't trace something, therefore *nobody else* can, now and forever". Which is surprisingly naive.

Btw, we must be careful, I fear soon enough we'll see some "if you don't do evil, bitcoin is sufficiently private", which is a dangerous line of thoughts.


Thanks BinaryFate and Smooth, good lessons in the minutia of fungibility.

dreamspark
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 798
Merit: 1000


View Profile
February 02, 2015, 03:04:54 PM
 #19565

I think we tend to see less completely blind bitcoiners "bitcoin is completely fungible and anonymous" as before. But more and more "if you take sufficient precautions, you can hide your traces". Basically they're saying "if *I* can't trace something, therefore *nobody else* can, now and forever". Which is surprisingly naive.

Btw, we must be careful, I fear soon enough we'll see some "if you don't do evil, bitcoin is sufficiently private", which is a dangerous line of thoughts.


Just want re-iterate the bold part. The "if your doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide" is the tosh that the governments have been feeding the masses for years in their bid for mass surveillance, a global government and  police states.
bclcjunkie
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 838
Merit: 1000



View Profile
February 02, 2015, 03:25:37 PM
 #19566

next wave of investments will be towards bitcoin blockchain tracking and analytics for sure...

err.. this is getting a bit obvious now, to not say ridiculous: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2uin7s/former_nsa_intelligence_agent_raises_nearly_1/
generalizethis
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1638
Merit: 1023


Facts are more efficient than fud


View Profile WWW
February 02, 2015, 03:31:26 PM
 #19567

next wave of investments will be towards bitcoin blockchain tracking and analytics for sure...

err.. this is getting a bit obvious now, to not say ridiculous: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2uin7s/former_nsa_intelligence_agent_raises_nearly_1/

r/bitcoin, "But I really, really, really want Bitcoin to be anonymous. Did I mention really?"

pa
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 525
Merit: 501


View Profile
February 02, 2015, 04:24:39 PM
 #19568

next wave of investments will be towards bitcoin blockchain tracking and analytics for sure...

err.. this is getting a bit obvious now, to not say ridiculous: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2uin7s/former_nsa_intelligence_agent_raises_nearly_1/

r/bitcoin, "But I really, really, really want Bitcoin to be anonymous. Did I mention really?"

Bitcoin and Monero will play the Good Cop and the Bad Cop, respectively, for the global oligarchy, and vice versa, for the rest of us.
btell
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 119
Merit: 10


View Profile
February 02, 2015, 07:42:08 PM
 #19569

fluffypony & David Latapie & all the core team, may be you find this interesting:

Quote
Sophia is an embeddable, transactional key-value database.

It has unique architecture that was created as a result of research and reconsideration primary algorithmic constraints of Log-file based data structures, such as LSM-tree. (see architecture)

Sophia is designed for fast write (append-only) and read (range query-optimized, adaptive architecture) small to medium-sized key-values.
------

* Full ACID compliancy

* Multi-Version Concurrency Control (MVCC) engine

* Pure Append-Only

* Multi-databases support (Single environment and WAL)

* Multi-Statement and Single-Statement Transactions (SERIALIZED view, multi-databases)

* Multi-threaded (Client access and Engine scalability)

* Consistent Cursors

* Point-in-Time Snapshots

* Asynchronous Online/Hot Backup

* Easy to use (Clean and functional API)

* Easy to integrate (Native support of using as storage engine)

* Easy to write bindings (FFI-friendly, API designed to be stable in future)

* Easy to built-in (Amalgamated, only two C files needed for work)

* Implemented as small C-written library with zero dependencies

* BSD Licensed

http://sphia.org/
GingerAle
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1176
Merit: 1004


View Profile WWW
February 02, 2015, 07:47:49 PM
 #19570

ZERO DEPENDENCIES!!! music to my ears.

< Track your bitcoins! > < Track them again! > <<< [url=https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1qomqt/what_a_landmark_legal_case_from_mid1700s_scotland/] What is fungibility? >>> 46P88uZ4edEgsk7iKQUGu2FUDYcdHm2HtLFiGLp1inG4e4f9PTb4mbHWYWFZGYUeQidJ8hFym2WUmWc p34X8HHmFS2LXJkf <<< Free subdomains at moneroworld.com!! >>> <<< If you don't want to run your own node, point your wallet to node.moneroworld.com, and get connected to a random node! @@@@ FUCK ALL THE PROFITEERS! PROOF OF WORK OR ITS A SCAM !!! @@@@
David Latapie
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 658
Merit: 500


Monero Core Team


View Profile WWW
February 02, 2015, 10:17:14 PM
Last edit: February 04, 2015, 03:50:46 PM by David Latapie
 #19571

To foster donation to the development fund, you can add donate.monero.cc to you signature (without a hyperlink).
But what is people mistake it for a URL?
Now they'll have a landing page: donate.monero.cc

(yes, I know, it is raw. This is on purpose)

Depending on when you'll read this, the page may not be ready yet. Meanwhile, you can preview it here: http://monero.cc/donate

Eventually, there might be a real page, but nothing for sure - donation page might be better somewhere else.

Monero: the first crytocurrency to bring bank secrecy and net neutrality to the blockchain.HyperStake: pushing the limits of staking.
Reputation threadFree bitcoins: reviews, hints…: freebitco.in, freedoge.co.in, qoinpro
nakaone
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742
Merit: 500


View Profile
February 02, 2015, 10:45:53 PM
 #19572

next wave of investments will be towards bitcoin blockchain tracking and analytics for sure...

err.. this is getting a bit obvious now, to not say ridiculous: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2uin7s/former_nsa_intelligence_agent_raises_nearly_1/

the big question is if they find an equilibrium between consumer protection and not-leading-into-a-fungibility-crisis.

I do not know if bitcoin survives the next 10-15 years but it is leading into a completely different direction than it was once thought of.

If that is for the good or the bad of mass adoption - we will see.
binaryFate
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1372
Merit: 1001


Still wild and free


View Profile
February 02, 2015, 11:42:03 PM
Last edit: February 03, 2015, 06:11:05 PM by binaryFate
 #19573

Cross posting David's post:

i registered because i see the patern, we are still largely ignored, monero is fundamentally better than bitcoin but still ignored by everybody.

Well, let's see who is speaking high of Monero or CryptoNote in general and has some reputation.

I've seen worse ignorance.

More information: Why Monero matters, The Three Pillars of Monero

Monero's privacy and therefore fungibility are MUCH stronger than Bitcoin's. 
This makes Monero a better candidate to deserve the term "digital cash".
kazuki49
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 350
Merit: 250



View Profile
February 03, 2015, 12:45:34 AM
Last edit: February 03, 2015, 01:01:19 AM by kazuki49
 #19574

Cross posting David's post:

Well, let's see who is speaking high of Monero or CryptoNote in general and has some reputation.

I've seen worse ignorance.

More information: Why Monero matters, The Three Pillars of Monero


Good post, didn't know Monero already passed the "peer-review" finals.
Drhiggins
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 301
Merit: 250



View Profile
February 03, 2015, 12:52:05 AM
 #19575

So when running a node does it auto store the block chain every 12 hours?
 

Monerohash.com   U.S. Mining Pool
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2044
Merit: 1077



View Profile
February 03, 2015, 12:54:32 AM
 #19576

So when running a node does it auto store the block chain every 12 hours?

Yes or when you exit or type save
Drhiggins
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 301
Merit: 250



View Profile
February 03, 2015, 01:19:11 AM
 #19577

So is there an estimates of how many nodes are out there on the network?  I assume a mining pool acts as a node. So if you are running simple wallet and daemon, does that act as a node, or do you have to have the daemon ports forwarded to be a true node.

 

Monerohash.com   U.S. Mining Pool
smooth
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2044
Merit: 1077



View Profile
February 03, 2015, 01:32:47 AM
 #19578

So is there an estimates of how many nodes are out there on the network?  I assume a mining pool acts as a node. So if you are running simple wallet and daemon, does that act as a node, or do you have to have the daemon ports forwarded to be a true node.

Any daemon is a node, so anyone using the standard daemon+simplewallet is running a node. Every pool has at least one node, but many have >1, same with exchanges. Anyone solo mining is certainly running a node.

There are quite a few nodes, very likely >1000. You can see that in the whitelist size which counts nodes that have successfully connected recently and is capped at 1000, and doesn't include all of them.

Hueristic
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1904
Merit: 1140


Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it


View Profile
February 03, 2015, 01:36:37 AM
 #19579

Have a great SuperBowl day guys! Smiley

To you too. I wish they won't run it on a Saturday afternoon in the US, as that makes it the night to Monday for Europe and Africa, which is just very inconvenient. Why not Saturday afternoon? Sad

Yeah, that doesn't make sense. Idunno?

OK, Too lazy to setup irc for tiperino, So any Seahawk fan that I trust wants to bet with me on superbowl?

I have 700 XMR and will put it on my pats straight up. No lines no gambling adjustments just straight up winner take all.

Have a great SuperBowl day guys! Smiley


well I don't know much about handegg, but I'd be willing to bet 100XMR on the seahawks  Cool

deal?

Well I don't know you but your a hero member with no neg so I don't see why I can't take your word.

Your on, GL and Just an FYI, I called Wilson as a most underrated probable great in his rookie year (When everyone else was Keapernick crazy) because he's one smart bastard! Cheesy


gonna be a great game.

Anyone else speak up soon as I'll be leaving in an hour or so.

600 XMR left

ok, cool. gl dude!  Smiley

btw. since I'm in germany don't be surprised if I won't be online directly after the game, pretty sure I'll fall asleep while watching.

I'll be at casino for who knows how long so I will take awhile to pay as well. I'll be back sometime between tonight and Friday depending on how the Poker tables are treating me. Cheesy



congrats dude!  Cool shall I use the address in your signature to send the funds too?

What a sick ending! did you watch it? I'll double check my address when I get home. It may be earlier rather than later, a guy hit a straight flush on me for 2k then i lost a ton on set over set. Smiley

BITSLER                 ▄███
               ▄████▀
             ▄████▀
           ▄████▀  ▄██▄
         ▄████▀    ▀████▄
       ▄████▀        ▀████▄
     ▄████▀            ▀████▄
   ▄████▀                ▀████▄
 ▄████▀ ▄████▄      ▄████▄ ▀████▄
█████   ██████      ██████   █████
 ▀████▄ ▀████▀      ▀████▀ ▄████▀
   ▀████▄                ▄████▀
     ▀████▄            ▄████▀
       ▀████▄        ▄████▀
         ▀████▄    ▄████▀
           ▀████▄▄████▀
             ▀██████▀
               ▀▀▀▀
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄            
▄▄▄▄▀▀▀▀    ▄▄█▄▄ ▀▀▄         
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▄      
█  ▀▄▄  ▀█▀▀ ▄      ▀████   ▀▀▄   
█ █▄  ▀▄   ▀████       ▀▀ ▄██▄ ▀▀▄
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
█  ▀▀       ▀▄▄ ▀████      ▄▄▄▀▀▀  █
█            ▄ ▀▄    ▄▄▄▀▀▀   ▄▄  █
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
█ ▄▄   ███   ▀██  █           ▀▀  █ 
█ ███  ▀██       █        ▄▄      █ 
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀  
▀▄            █        ▀▀      █  
▀▀▄   ███▄  █   ▄▄          █   
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀    
▀▀▄   █   ▀▀▄▄▄▀▀▀         
▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█▄▄▀▀▀▀              
              ▄▄▄██████▄▄▄
          ▄▄████████████████▄▄
        ▄██████▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀██████▄
▄     ▄█████▀             ▀█████▄
██▄▄ █████▀                ▀█████
 ████████            ▄██      █████
  ████████▄         ███▀       ████▄
  █████████▀▀     ▄███▀        █████
   █▀▀▀          █████         █████
     ▄▄▄         ████          █████
   █████          ▀▀           ████▀
    █████                     █████
     █████▄                 ▄█████
      ▀█████▄             ▄█████▀
        ▀██████▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄██████▀
          ▀▀████████████████▀▀
              ▀▀▀██████▀▀▀
            ▄▄▄███████▄▄▄
         ▄█▀▀▀ ▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ ▀▀▀█▄
       █▀▀ ▄█████████████▄ ▀▀█
     █▀▀ ███████████████████ ▀▀█
    █▀ ███████████████████████ ▀█
   █▀ ███████████████▀▀ ███████ ▀█
 ▄█▀ ██████████████▀      ▀█████ ▀█▄
███ ███████████▀▀            ▀▀██ ███
███ ███████▀▀                     ███
███ ▀▀▀▀                          ███
▀██▄                             ▄██▀
  ▀█▄                            ▀▀
    █▄       █▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█
     █▄      ▀█████████▀
      ▀█▄      ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
        ▀▀█▄▄  ▄▄▄
            ▀▀█████
[]
ArticMine
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2268
Merit: 1037


Monero Core Team


View Profile
February 03, 2015, 05:55:08 AM
 #19580

There is a new public document from the SK trial, its an interesting reading if anyone has the time, heres the part the caught my attention:

Quote
This is true even with rega
rd to the testimony regarding the evidence
supporting an inference that Bitcoins on
the Silk Road servers were transferred to
Ulbricht’s laptop. The defense opened on
a theory that the Bitcoins in Ulbricht’s
possession were from some sort of Bitcoi
n speculation (and, thus, not connected to
Silk Road). It was reasonable to expect
that defendant had performed the very
comparison the Government then scrambled to perform. That the Government
presented the facts of such a comparison
is nothing more than meeting a defense
argument. It would have been surprising
had the Government not done this. Thus,
the facts as to what Bitcoins—a highly
traceable digital currency
—were on the Silk
Road servers, and whether there was a factua
l basis to infer transfer to Ulbricht’s
laptop, was a door the defens
e opened at the outset.

http://ia600603.us.archive.org/21/items/gov.uscourts.nysd.422824/gov.uscourts.nysd.422824.173.0.pdf

these are the words from the federal judge btw

We must keep in mind here that the government has both the sending and receiving computers and the corresponding secret keys for both the sending and receiving wallets. They are trying in this situation to link the coins that were sent from the SR servers to the coins in the defendant's computer. My thought is that replacing XBT with XMR would not help the defendant in this situation since in the XMR case the government would still be able to use the corresponding view keys to provide evidence of the transactions to the court. This is actually quite properly by design.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
Pages: « 1 ... 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 936 937 938 939 940 941 942 943 944 945 946 947 948 949 950 951 952 953 954 955 956 957 958 959 960 961 962 963 964 965 966 967 968 969 970 971 972 973 974 975 976 977 978 [979] 980 981 982 983 984 985 986 987 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 ... 2033 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Bitcointalk.org is not available or authorized for sale. Do not believe any fake listings.
Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!