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Author Topic: Scientific proof that God exists?  (Read 802563 times)
Astargath
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December 24, 2017, 01:02:38 PM
 #9041


In the same way that you don't know that there are machines that don't have makers.

However, in the vastness of the machine world, the evidence that all machines have makers is so great, that you would have a difficult time finding a machine without a maker.

I'll help you. There is that ancient Greek machine that turns out to be the oldest computer in the world - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/ancient-computer.html - that was found on an ancient Greek galleon. Just because it was found there, on a sunken Greek galleon, doesn't mean we know that it had a maker. But try to tell that to any scientist, and they will laugh you right into a funny farm.

Cool

This is the same argument as ''everything is designed'' which I already debunked. You told me to look for the definition of machine: ''an apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions, used in the performance of some kind of work:'' Now if the universe can be a machine, then so can a volcano, for example. Now how do you know a volcano has a maker? We don't. We only know ''machines'' have makers because those makers are humans, all the machines that have makers are humans, that doesn't prove god or that all machines have makers, it only proves, in any case, that all machines have human makers.

Consider AI. It is a machine made by mankind. Yet it can teach itself to play chess better than a human, even in ways that a human can't match. Our crude AI isn't really alive, doesn't really have sentience. Yet it acts in ways that seem uncontrolled... at least as far as we are concerned. But the work that it does is not controlled directly.

AI is a machine made up of many smaller machines, doing work that is not controlled by us directly - not even entirely understood by us. Yet the Master Machine Maker understands every, last erg of energy and force in a volcano, via cause and effect. He set it up. He also understands every last working of our AI. None of this means that He has to focus on all of it all the time, with the essence of His "I AM."

You have in no way debunked the idea that everything is designed. What you are doing is debunki9ng yourself. Soon you will be gone forever... if you do not change and take hold of the offering of eternal life from God.

Cool

You didn't answer at all here. I asked you how do you know that everything is designed or made by a sentient being. Yes we know our machines are designed by us, obviously just like we know a watch or a chair is designed by humans because nature does not produce such things. You are claiming that trees, rocks, planets, everything is designed by something else, my question is, how do you know?

Did you forget the complexity already? Our examples of machine making show us that the weaker thinkers among us don't really design the more complex machines. Yet all the machines and "levers" that we make come from nature and examples in nature. Nature, being full of machines that are way more complex than the machines of man, were made by Someone way smarter and more capable than man.

Machines and their complexity and the greatness/intelligence of those who make them is one of the greatest examples that God exists.

Perhaps you fit into my previous post along with VOD.

Cool

Did you forget that I already showed you that complexity does not show design? It's right here:

''assumes humans determine whether or not something is designed by seeing if it has an accurate adjustment of parts—that is, if it shows complexity.  But this is certainly mistaken.  We know that something is designed not by its complexity, or even the degree to which it appears to serve a purpose, but by looking for ways in which it differs from nature.  In other words, nature is the benchmark against which we compare an object to see if it is designed.

For example, many naturally occurring rock fragments just happen to have a sharp edge that is well-suited for serving the purpose of chopping meat, though this does not lead us to believe that these fragments were designed.  Yet, we have found clearly manufactured prehistoric chopping and cutting stones that were designed.  How do we know they were designed and not just examples of fortuitous rock fractures?  Clearly it is not because they are sharp, since naturally occurring rocks are also sharp; and not because they are complex, since they have neither parts nor complexity; and not because they serve a purpose, since obviously random events can make a rock very sharp.  We know these stone hand axes were designed because they have markings on them that differ from what one would find in nature—that is, they have signs of manufacture.

Because the proper criterion for establishing design is difference from nature, and not complexity or apparent usefulness, we can know that something was designed even when it is both extremely simple and has no identifiable purpose at all. ''

''we don’t know something is intelligently designed because it shows complexity; we know it is designed because it shows signs of manufacture, and the only way we know something is manufactured is by comparing it with nature or by having direct experience of its manufacture.  Now, if the criterion for determining design is comparison with nature, then it makes no sense to apply that criterion to nature itself since nature provides the very benchmark for making the comparison.''



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HAS BEEN RELEASED!


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December 24, 2017, 01:06:38 PM
 #9042


In the same way that you don't know that there are machines that don't have makers.

However, in the vastness of the machine world, the evidence that all machines have makers is so great, that you would have a difficult time finding a machine without a maker.

I'll help you. There is that ancient Greek machine that turns out to be the oldest computer in the world - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/ancient-computer.html - that was found on an ancient Greek galleon. Just because it was found there, on a sunken Greek galleon, doesn't mean we know that it had a maker. But try to tell that to any scientist, and they will laugh you right into a funny farm.

Cool

This is the same argument as ''everything is designed'' which I already debunked. You told me to look for the definition of machine: ''an apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions, used in the performance of some kind of work:'' Now if the universe can be a machine, then so can a volcano, for example. Now how do you know a volcano has a maker? We don't. We only know ''machines'' have makers because those makers are humans, all the machines that have makers are humans, that doesn't prove god or that all machines have makers, it only proves, in any case, that all machines have human makers.

Consider AI. It is a machine made by mankind. Yet it can teach itself to play chess better than a human, even in ways that a human can't match. Our crude AI isn't really alive, doesn't really have sentience. Yet it acts in ways that seem uncontrolled... at least as far as we are concerned. But the work that it does is not controlled directly.

AI is a machine made up of many smaller machines, doing work that is not controlled by us directly - not even entirely understood by us. Yet the Master Machine Maker understands every, last erg of energy and force in a volcano, via cause and effect. He set it up. He also understands every last working of our AI. None of this means that He has to focus on all of it all the time, with the essence of His "I AM."

You have in no way debunked the idea that everything is designed. What you are doing is debunki9ng yourself. Soon you will be gone forever... if you do not change and take hold of the offering of eternal life from God.

Cool

You didn't answer at all here. I asked you how do you know that everything is designed or made by a sentient being. Yes we know our machines are designed by us, obviously just like we know a watch or a chair is designed by humans because nature does not produce such things. You are claiming that trees, rocks, planets, everything is designed by something else, my question is, how do you know?

Did you forget the complexity already? Our examples of machine making show us that the weaker thinkers among us don't really design the more complex machines. Yet all the machines and "levers" that we make come from nature and examples in nature. Nature, being full of machines that are way more complex than the machines of man, were made by Someone way smarter and more capable than man.

Machines and their complexity and the greatness/intelligence of those who make them is one of the greatest examples that God exists.

Perhaps you fit into my previous post along with VOD.

Cool

Did you forget that I already showed you that complexity does not show design? It's right here:

''assumes humans determine whether or not something is designed by seeing if it has an accurate adjustment of parts—that is, if it shows complexity.  But this is certainly mistaken.  We know that something is designed not by its complexity, or even the degree to which it appears to serve a purpose, but by looking for ways in which it differs from nature.  In other words, nature is the benchmark against which we compare an object to see if it is designed.

For example, many naturally occurring rock fragments just happen to have a sharp edge that is well-suited for serving the purpose of chopping meat, though this does not lead us to believe that these fragments were designed.  Yet, we have found clearly manufactured prehistoric chopping and cutting stones that were designed.  How do we know they were designed and not just examples of fortuitous rock fractures?  Clearly it is not because they are sharp, since naturally occurring rocks are also sharp; and not because they are complex, since they have neither parts nor complexity; and not because they serve a purpose, since obviously random events can make a rock very sharp.  We know these stone hand axes were designed because they have markings on them that differ from what one would find in nature—that is, they have signs of manufacture.

Because the proper criterion for establishing design is difference from nature, and not complexity or apparent usefulness, we can know that something was designed even when it is both extremely simple and has no identifiable purpose at all. ''

''we don’t know something is intelligently designed because it shows complexity; we know it is designed because it shows signs of manufacture, and the only way we know something is manufactured is by comparing it with nature or by having direct experience of its manufacture.  Now, if the criterion for determining design is comparison with nature, then it makes no sense to apply that criterion to nature itself since nature provides the very benchmark for making the comparison.''


Did you notice that all you showed was the writings of someone else who doesn't have anything concrete to back up what he says? Rather, the exact things that he is trying to use to show lack of intelligent design in complexity are the things that uphold intelligent design in complexity.

Cool
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December 24, 2017, 01:09:00 PM
 #9043


In the same way that you don't know that there are machines that don't have makers.

However, in the vastness of the machine world, the evidence that all machines have makers is so great, that you would have a difficult time finding a machine without a maker.

I'll help you. There is that ancient Greek machine that turns out to be the oldest computer in the world - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/ancient-computer.html - that was found on an ancient Greek galleon. Just because it was found there, on a sunken Greek galleon, doesn't mean we know that it had a maker. But try to tell that to any scientist, and they will laugh you right into a funny farm.

Cool

This is the same argument as ''everything is designed'' which I already debunked. You told me to look for the definition of machine: ''an apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions, used in the performance of some kind of work:'' Now if the universe can be a machine, then so can a volcano, for example. Now how do you know a volcano has a maker? We don't. We only know ''machines'' have makers because those makers are humans, all the machines that have makers are humans, that doesn't prove god or that all machines have makers, it only proves, in any case, that all machines have human makers.

Consider AI. It is a machine made by mankind. Yet it can teach itself to play chess better than a human, even in ways that a human can't match. Our crude AI isn't really alive, doesn't really have sentience. Yet it acts in ways that seem uncontrolled... at least as far as we are concerned. But the work that it does is not controlled directly.

AI is a machine made up of many smaller machines, doing work that is not controlled by us directly - not even entirely understood by us. Yet the Master Machine Maker understands every, last erg of energy and force in a volcano, via cause and effect. He set it up. He also understands every last working of our AI. None of this means that He has to focus on all of it all the time, with the essence of His "I AM."

You have in no way debunked the idea that everything is designed. What you are doing is debunki9ng yourself. Soon you will be gone forever... if you do not change and take hold of the offering of eternal life from God.

Cool

You didn't answer at all here. I asked you how do you know that everything is designed or made by a sentient being. Yes we know our machines are designed by us, obviously just like we know a watch or a chair is designed by humans because nature does not produce such things. You are claiming that trees, rocks, planets, everything is designed by something else, my question is, how do you know?

Did you forget the complexity already? Our examples of machine making show us that the weaker thinkers among us don't really design the more complex machines. Yet all the machines and "levers" that we make come from nature and examples in nature. Nature, being full of machines that are way more complex than the machines of man, were made by Someone way smarter and more capable than man.

Machines and their complexity and the greatness/intelligence of those who make them is one of the greatest examples that God exists.

Perhaps you fit into my previous post along with VOD.

Cool

Did you forget that I already showed you that complexity does not show design? It's right here:

''assumes humans determine whether or not something is designed by seeing if it has an accurate adjustment of parts—that is, if it shows complexity.  But this is certainly mistaken.  We know that something is designed not by its complexity, or even the degree to which it appears to serve a purpose, but by looking for ways in which it differs from nature.  In other words, nature is the benchmark against which we compare an object to see if it is designed.

For example, many naturally occurring rock fragments just happen to have a sharp edge that is well-suited for serving the purpose of chopping meat, though this does not lead us to believe that these fragments were designed.  Yet, we have found clearly manufactured prehistoric chopping and cutting stones that were designed.  How do we know they were designed and not just examples of fortuitous rock fractures?  Clearly it is not because they are sharp, since naturally occurring rocks are also sharp; and not because they are complex, since they have neither parts nor complexity; and not because they serve a purpose, since obviously random events can make a rock very sharp.  We know these stone hand axes were designed because they have markings on them that differ from what one would find in nature—that is, they have signs of manufacture.

Because the proper criterion for establishing design is difference from nature, and not complexity or apparent usefulness, we can know that something was designed even when it is both extremely simple and has no identifiable purpose at all. ''

''we don’t know something is intelligently designed because it shows complexity; we know it is designed because it shows signs of manufacture, and the only way we know something is manufactured is by comparing it with nature or by having direct experience of its manufacture.  Now, if the criterion for determining design is comparison with nature, then it makes no sense to apply that criterion to nature itself since nature provides the very benchmark for making the comparison.''


Did you notice that all you showed was the writings of someone else who doesn't have anything concrete to back up what he says? Rather, the exact things that he is trying to use to show lack of intelligent design in complexity are the things that uphold intelligent design in complexity.

Cool

The argument is simple, how do you know that all complex things require a designer? You claim that complexity shows that everything is designed but how do you know? We only know our things are designed because they are made by us, humans and we know these things are designed by us by comparing them to nature.

This argument, by the way, is a well known flawed argument, discussed plenty of times.

''The argument from design, also known as the teleological argument, is an argument for the existence of God (or life-engineering aliens) that may be summarized as follows: When I see a complex object such as a watch, I know it has been designed: therefore, when I see a complex object such as a tiger, I should infer that it has been designed. This act of comparing two objects and drawing similar conclusions based on similarities (while ignoring important differences) is a prime example of a false analogy.''

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_design#Problems_with_the_above
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-a-schwartz/intelligent-design-watchmaker_b_1730878.html



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HAS BEEN RELEASED!


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December 24, 2017, 01:23:23 PM
 #9044


In the same way that you don't know that there are machines that don't have makers.

However, in the vastness of the machine world, the evidence that all machines have makers is so great, that you would have a difficult time finding a machine without a maker.

I'll help you. There is that ancient Greek machine that turns out to be the oldest computer in the world - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/ancient-computer.html - that was found on an ancient Greek galleon. Just because it was found there, on a sunken Greek galleon, doesn't mean we know that it had a maker. But try to tell that to any scientist, and they will laugh you right into a funny farm.

Cool

This is the same argument as ''everything is designed'' which I already debunked. You told me to look for the definition of machine: ''an apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions, used in the performance of some kind of work:'' Now if the universe can be a machine, then so can a volcano, for example. Now how do you know a volcano has a maker? We don't. We only know ''machines'' have makers because those makers are humans, all the machines that have makers are humans, that doesn't prove god or that all machines have makers, it only proves, in any case, that all machines have human makers.

Consider AI. It is a machine made by mankind. Yet it can teach itself to play chess better than a human, even in ways that a human can't match. Our crude AI isn't really alive, doesn't really have sentience. Yet it acts in ways that seem uncontrolled... at least as far as we are concerned. But the work that it does is not controlled directly.

AI is a machine made up of many smaller machines, doing work that is not controlled by us directly - not even entirely understood by us. Yet the Master Machine Maker understands every, last erg of energy and force in a volcano, via cause and effect. He set it up. He also understands every last working of our AI. None of this means that He has to focus on all of it all the time, with the essence of His "I AM."

You have in no way debunked the idea that everything is designed. What you are doing is debunki9ng yourself. Soon you will be gone forever... if you do not change and take hold of the offering of eternal life from God.

Cool

You didn't answer at all here. I asked you how do you know that everything is designed or made by a sentient being. Yes we know our machines are designed by us, obviously just like we know a watch or a chair is designed by humans because nature does not produce such things. You are claiming that trees, rocks, planets, everything is designed by something else, my question is, how do you know?

Did you forget the complexity already? Our examples of machine making show us that the weaker thinkers among us don't really design the more complex machines. Yet all the machines and "levers" that we make come from nature and examples in nature. Nature, being full of machines that are way more complex than the machines of man, were made by Someone way smarter and more capable than man.

Machines and their complexity and the greatness/intelligence of those who make them is one of the greatest examples that God exists.

Perhaps you fit into my previous post along with VOD.

Cool

Did you forget that I already showed you that complexity does not show design? It's right here:

''assumes humans determine whether or not something is designed by seeing if it has an accurate adjustment of parts—that is, if it shows complexity.  But this is certainly mistaken.  We know that something is designed not by its complexity, or even the degree to which it appears to serve a purpose, but by looking for ways in which it differs from nature.  In other words, nature is the benchmark against which we compare an object to see if it is designed.

For example, many naturally occurring rock fragments just happen to have a sharp edge that is well-suited for serving the purpose of chopping meat, though this does not lead us to believe that these fragments were designed.  Yet, we have found clearly manufactured prehistoric chopping and cutting stones that were designed.  How do we know they were designed and not just examples of fortuitous rock fractures?  Clearly it is not because they are sharp, since naturally occurring rocks are also sharp; and not because they are complex, since they have neither parts nor complexity; and not because they serve a purpose, since obviously random events can make a rock very sharp.  We know these stone hand axes were designed because they have markings on them that differ from what one would find in nature—that is, they have signs of manufacture.

Because the proper criterion for establishing design is difference from nature, and not complexity or apparent usefulness, we can know that something was designed even when it is both extremely simple and has no identifiable purpose at all. ''

''we don’t know something is intelligently designed because it shows complexity; we know it is designed because it shows signs of manufacture, and the only way we know something is manufactured is by comparing it with nature or by having direct experience of its manufacture.  Now, if the criterion for determining design is comparison with nature, then it makes no sense to apply that criterion to nature itself since nature provides the very benchmark for making the comparison.''


Did you notice that all you showed was the writings of someone else who doesn't have anything concrete to back up what he says? Rather, the exact things that he is trying to use to show lack of intelligent design in complexity are the things that uphold intelligent design in complexity.

Cool

The argument is simple, how do you know that all complex things require a designer? You claim that complexity shows that everything is designed but how do you know? We only know our things are designed because they are made by us, humans and we know these things are designed by us by comparing them to nature.

This argument, by the way, is a well known flawed argument, discussed plenty of times.

''The argument from design, also known as the teleological argument, is an argument for the existence of God (or life-engineering aliens) that may be summarized as follows: When I see a complex object such as a watch, I know it has been designed: therefore, when I see a complex object such as a tiger, I should infer that it has been designed. This act of comparing two objects and drawing similar conclusions based on similarities (while ignoring important differences) is a prime example of a false analogy.''

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_design#Problems_with_the_above
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-a-schwartz/intelligent-design-watchmaker_b_1730878.html

All things are machinery, because we take all our machines from examples in nature. Machines have makers. More complex machines have more complex makers. The complexity of machine universe is so great that the Maker of it fits the definition of God.

It's as simple as that. There is nothing that shows anything that is opposite to it. this makes all your talk to be political science.

Cool
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December 24, 2017, 01:32:01 PM
 #9045


In the same way that you don't know that there are machines that don't have makers.

However, in the vastness of the machine world, the evidence that all machines have makers is so great, that you would have a difficult time finding a machine without a maker.

I'll help you. There is that ancient Greek machine that turns out to be the oldest computer in the world - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/ancient-computer.html - that was found on an ancient Greek galleon. Just because it was found there, on a sunken Greek galleon, doesn't mean we know that it had a maker. But try to tell that to any scientist, and they will laugh you right into a funny farm.

Cool

This is the same argument as ''everything is designed'' which I already debunked. You told me to look for the definition of machine: ''an apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions, used in the performance of some kind of work:'' Now if the universe can be a machine, then so can a volcano, for example. Now how do you know a volcano has a maker? We don't. We only know ''machines'' have makers because those makers are humans, all the machines that have makers are humans, that doesn't prove god or that all machines have makers, it only proves, in any case, that all machines have human makers.

Consider AI. It is a machine made by mankind. Yet it can teach itself to play chess better than a human, even in ways that a human can't match. Our crude AI isn't really alive, doesn't really have sentience. Yet it acts in ways that seem uncontrolled... at least as far as we are concerned. But the work that it does is not controlled directly.

AI is a machine made up of many smaller machines, doing work that is not controlled by us directly - not even entirely understood by us. Yet the Master Machine Maker understands every, last erg of energy and force in a volcano, via cause and effect. He set it up. He also understands every last working of our AI. None of this means that He has to focus on all of it all the time, with the essence of His "I AM."

You have in no way debunked the idea that everything is designed. What you are doing is debunki9ng yourself. Soon you will be gone forever... if you do not change and take hold of the offering of eternal life from God.

Cool

You didn't answer at all here. I asked you how do you know that everything is designed or made by a sentient being. Yes we know our machines are designed by us, obviously just like we know a watch or a chair is designed by humans because nature does not produce such things. You are claiming that trees, rocks, planets, everything is designed by something else, my question is, how do you know?

Did you forget the complexity already? Our examples of machine making show us that the weaker thinkers among us don't really design the more complex machines. Yet all the machines and "levers" that we make come from nature and examples in nature. Nature, being full of machines that are way more complex than the machines of man, were made by Someone way smarter and more capable than man.

Machines and their complexity and the greatness/intelligence of those who make them is one of the greatest examples that God exists.

Perhaps you fit into my previous post along with VOD.

Cool

Did you forget that I already showed you that complexity does not show design? It's right here:

''assumes humans determine whether or not something is designed by seeing if it has an accurate adjustment of parts—that is, if it shows complexity.  But this is certainly mistaken.  We know that something is designed not by its complexity, or even the degree to which it appears to serve a purpose, but by looking for ways in which it differs from nature.  In other words, nature is the benchmark against which we compare an object to see if it is designed.

For example, many naturally occurring rock fragments just happen to have a sharp edge that is well-suited for serving the purpose of chopping meat, though this does not lead us to believe that these fragments were designed.  Yet, we have found clearly manufactured prehistoric chopping and cutting stones that were designed.  How do we know they were designed and not just examples of fortuitous rock fractures?  Clearly it is not because they are sharp, since naturally occurring rocks are also sharp; and not because they are complex, since they have neither parts nor complexity; and not because they serve a purpose, since obviously random events can make a rock very sharp.  We know these stone hand axes were designed because they have markings on them that differ from what one would find in nature—that is, they have signs of manufacture.

Because the proper criterion for establishing design is difference from nature, and not complexity or apparent usefulness, we can know that something was designed even when it is both extremely simple and has no identifiable purpose at all. ''

''we don’t know something is intelligently designed because it shows complexity; we know it is designed because it shows signs of manufacture, and the only way we know something is manufactured is by comparing it with nature or by having direct experience of its manufacture.  Now, if the criterion for determining design is comparison with nature, then it makes no sense to apply that criterion to nature itself since nature provides the very benchmark for making the comparison.''


Did you notice that all you showed was the writings of someone else who doesn't have anything concrete to back up what he says? Rather, the exact things that he is trying to use to show lack of intelligent design in complexity are the things that uphold intelligent design in complexity.

Cool

The argument is simple, how do you know that all complex things require a designer? You claim that complexity shows that everything is designed but how do you know? We only know our things are designed because they are made by us, humans and we know these things are designed by us by comparing them to nature.

This argument, by the way, is a well known flawed argument, discussed plenty of times.

''The argument from design, also known as the teleological argument, is an argument for the existence of God (or life-engineering aliens) that may be summarized as follows: When I see a complex object such as a watch, I know it has been designed: therefore, when I see a complex object such as a tiger, I should infer that it has been designed. This act of comparing two objects and drawing similar conclusions based on similarities (while ignoring important differences) is a prime example of a false analogy.''

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_design#Problems_with_the_above
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-a-schwartz/intelligent-design-watchmaker_b_1730878.html

All things are machinery, because we take all our machines from examples in nature. Machines have makers. More complex machines have more complex makers. The complexity of machine universe is so great that the Maker of it fits the definition of God.

It's as simple as that. There is nothing that shows anything that is opposite to it. this makes all your talk to be political science.

Cool

But how do you know that all machines have makers, what makes you think that and do you have any evidence for it?



.
.BITVEST DICE.
HAS BEEN RELEASED!


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December 24, 2017, 01:45:43 PM
 #9046

the existence of the heavens and the earth and its contents is the proof.
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December 24, 2017, 02:36:54 PM
 #9047

God is there because there are human and earth, plant
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December 24, 2017, 02:58:32 PM
 #9048

scientific evidence that says God is absolute? We certainly can not have one person to embrace the same beliefs as ourselves. It's hard for the Atheists once again that God exists, just as hard as a priest pack is being a ustadz. So is God there or not?
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December 24, 2017, 07:56:12 PM
 #9049


In the same way that you don't know that there are machines that don't have makers.

However, in the vastness of the machine world, the evidence that all machines have makers is so great, that you would have a difficult time finding a machine without a maker.

I'll help you. There is that ancient Greek machine that turns out to be the oldest computer in the world - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/ancient-computer.html - that was found on an ancient Greek galleon. Just because it was found there, on a sunken Greek galleon, doesn't mean we know that it had a maker. But try to tell that to any scientist, and they will laugh you right into a funny farm.

Cool

This is the same argument as ''everything is designed'' which I already debunked. You told me to look for the definition of machine: ''an apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions, used in the performance of some kind of work:'' Now if the universe can be a machine, then so can a volcano, for example. Now how do you know a volcano has a maker? We don't. We only know ''machines'' have makers because those makers are humans, all the machines that have makers are humans, that doesn't prove god or that all machines have makers, it only proves, in any case, that all machines have human makers.

Consider AI. It is a machine made by mankind. Yet it can teach itself to play chess better than a human, even in ways that a human can't match. Our crude AI isn't really alive, doesn't really have sentience. Yet it acts in ways that seem uncontrolled... at least as far as we are concerned. But the work that it does is not controlled directly.

AI is a machine made up of many smaller machines, doing work that is not controlled by us directly - not even entirely understood by us. Yet the Master Machine Maker understands every, last erg of energy and force in a volcano, via cause and effect. He set it up. He also understands every last working of our AI. None of this means that He has to focus on all of it all the time, with the essence of His "I AM."

You have in no way debunked the idea that everything is designed. What you are doing is debunki9ng yourself. Soon you will be gone forever... if you do not change and take hold of the offering of eternal life from God.

Cool

You didn't answer at all here. I asked you how do you know that everything is designed or made by a sentient being. Yes we know our machines are designed by us, obviously just like we know a watch or a chair is designed by humans because nature does not produce such things. You are claiming that trees, rocks, planets, everything is designed by something else, my question is, how do you know?

Did you forget the complexity already? Our examples of machine making show us that the weaker thinkers among us don't really design the more complex machines. Yet all the machines and "levers" that we make come from nature and examples in nature. Nature, being full of machines that are way more complex than the machines of man, were made by Someone way smarter and more capable than man.

Machines and their complexity and the greatness/intelligence of those who make them is one of the greatest examples that God exists.

Perhaps you fit into my previous post along with VOD.

Cool

Did you forget that I already showed you that complexity does not show design? It's right here:

''assumes humans determine whether or not something is designed by seeing if it has an accurate adjustment of parts—that is, if it shows complexity.  But this is certainly mistaken.  We know that something is designed not by its complexity, or even the degree to which it appears to serve a purpose, but by looking for ways in which it differs from nature.  In other words, nature is the benchmark against which we compare an object to see if it is designed.

For example, many naturally occurring rock fragments just happen to have a sharp edge that is well-suited for serving the purpose of chopping meat, though this does not lead us to believe that these fragments were designed.  Yet, we have found clearly manufactured prehistoric chopping and cutting stones that were designed.  How do we know they were designed and not just examples of fortuitous rock fractures?  Clearly it is not because they are sharp, since naturally occurring rocks are also sharp; and not because they are complex, since they have neither parts nor complexity; and not because they serve a purpose, since obviously random events can make a rock very sharp.  We know these stone hand axes were designed because they have markings on them that differ from what one would find in nature—that is, they have signs of manufacture.

Because the proper criterion for establishing design is difference from nature, and not complexity or apparent usefulness, we can know that something was designed even when it is both extremely simple and has no identifiable purpose at all. ''

''we don’t know something is intelligently designed because it shows complexity; we know it is designed because it shows signs of manufacture, and the only way we know something is manufactured is by comparing it with nature or by having direct experience of its manufacture.  Now, if the criterion for determining design is comparison with nature, then it makes no sense to apply that criterion to nature itself since nature provides the very benchmark for making the comparison.''


Did you notice that all you showed was the writings of someone else who doesn't have anything concrete to back up what he says? Rather, the exact things that he is trying to use to show lack of intelligent design in complexity are the things that uphold intelligent design in complexity.

Cool

The argument is simple, how do you know that all complex things require a designer? You claim that complexity shows that everything is designed but how do you know? We only know our things are designed because they are made by us, humans and we know these things are designed by us by comparing them to nature.

This argument, by the way, is a well known flawed argument, discussed plenty of times.

''The argument from design, also known as the teleological argument, is an argument for the existence of God (or life-engineering aliens) that may be summarized as follows: When I see a complex object such as a watch, I know it has been designed: therefore, when I see a complex object such as a tiger, I should infer that it has been designed. This act of comparing two objects and drawing similar conclusions based on similarities (while ignoring important differences) is a prime example of a false analogy.''

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_design#Problems_with_the_above
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-a-schwartz/intelligent-design-watchmaker_b_1730878.html

All things are machinery, because we take all our machines from examples in nature. Machines have makers. More complex machines have more complex makers. The complexity of machine universe is so great that the Maker of it fits the definition of God.

It's as simple as that. There is nothing that shows anything that is opposite to it. this makes all your talk to be political science.

Cool

^^^


But how do you know that all machines have makers, what makes you think that and do you have any evidence for it?
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December 24, 2017, 08:25:59 PM
 #9050

oh well. they won't prove nothing that won't get them more money.
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December 24, 2017, 08:47:52 PM
 #9051


In the same way that you don't know that there are machines that don't have makers.

However, in the vastness of the machine world, the evidence that all machines have makers is so great, that you would have a difficult time finding a machine without a maker.

I'll help you. There is that ancient Greek machine that turns out to be the oldest computer in the world - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/ancient-computer.html - that was found on an ancient Greek galleon. Just because it was found there, on a sunken Greek galleon, doesn't mean we know that it had a maker. But try to tell that to any scientist, and they will laugh you right into a funny farm.

Cool

This is the same argument as ''everything is designed'' which I already debunked. You told me to look for the definition of machine: ''an apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions, used in the performance of some kind of work:'' Now if the universe can be a machine, then so can a volcano, for example. Now how do you know a volcano has a maker? We don't. We only know ''machines'' have makers because those makers are humans, all the machines that have makers are humans, that doesn't prove god or that all machines have makers, it only proves, in any case, that all machines have human makers.

Consider AI. It is a machine made by mankind. Yet it can teach itself to play chess better than a human, even in ways that a human can't match. Our crude AI isn't really alive, doesn't really have sentience. Yet it acts in ways that seem uncontrolled... at least as far as we are concerned. But the work that it does is not controlled directly.

AI is a machine made up of many smaller machines, doing work that is not controlled by us directly - not even entirely understood by us. Yet the Master Machine Maker understands every, last erg of energy and force in a volcano, via cause and effect. He set it up. He also understands every last working of our AI. None of this means that He has to focus on all of it all the time, with the essence of His "I AM."

You have in no way debunked the idea that everything is designed. What you are doing is debunki9ng yourself. Soon you will be gone forever... if you do not change and take hold of the offering of eternal life from God.

Cool

You didn't answer at all here. I asked you how do you know that everything is designed or made by a sentient being. Yes we know our machines are designed by us, obviously just like we know a watch or a chair is designed by humans because nature does not produce such things. You are claiming that trees, rocks, planets, everything is designed by something else, my question is, how do you know?

Did you forget the complexity already? Our examples of machine making show us that the weaker thinkers among us don't really design the more complex machines. Yet all the machines and "levers" that we make come from nature and examples in nature. Nature, being full of machines that are way more complex than the machines of man, were made by Someone way smarter and more capable than man.

Machines and their complexity and the greatness/intelligence of those who make them is one of the greatest examples that God exists.

Perhaps you fit into my previous post along with VOD.

Cool

Did you forget that I already showed you that complexity does not show design? It's right here:

''assumes humans determine whether or not something is designed by seeing if it has an accurate adjustment of parts—that is, if it shows complexity.  But this is certainly mistaken.  We know that something is designed not by its complexity, or even the degree to which it appears to serve a purpose, but by looking for ways in which it differs from nature.  In other words, nature is the benchmark against which we compare an object to see if it is designed.

For example, many naturally occurring rock fragments just happen to have a sharp edge that is well-suited for serving the purpose of chopping meat, though this does not lead us to believe that these fragments were designed.  Yet, we have found clearly manufactured prehistoric chopping and cutting stones that were designed.  How do we know they were designed and not just examples of fortuitous rock fractures?  Clearly it is not because they are sharp, since naturally occurring rocks are also sharp; and not because they are complex, since they have neither parts nor complexity; and not because they serve a purpose, since obviously random events can make a rock very sharp.  We know these stone hand axes were designed because they have markings on them that differ from what one would find in nature—that is, they have signs of manufacture.

Because the proper criterion for establishing design is difference from nature, and not complexity or apparent usefulness, we can know that something was designed even when it is both extremely simple and has no identifiable purpose at all. ''

''we don’t know something is intelligently designed because it shows complexity; we know it is designed because it shows signs of manufacture, and the only way we know something is manufactured is by comparing it with nature or by having direct experience of its manufacture.  Now, if the criterion for determining design is comparison with nature, then it makes no sense to apply that criterion to nature itself since nature provides the very benchmark for making the comparison.''


Did you notice that all you showed was the writings of someone else who doesn't have anything concrete to back up what he says? Rather, the exact things that he is trying to use to show lack of intelligent design in complexity are the things that uphold intelligent design in complexity.

Cool

The argument is simple, how do you know that all complex things require a designer? You claim that complexity shows that everything is designed but how do you know? We only know our things are designed because they are made by us, humans and we know these things are designed by us by comparing them to nature.

This argument, by the way, is a well known flawed argument, discussed plenty of times.

''The argument from design, also known as the teleological argument, is an argument for the existence of God (or life-engineering aliens) that may be summarized as follows: When I see a complex object such as a watch, I know it has been designed: therefore, when I see a complex object such as a tiger, I should infer that it has been designed. This act of comparing two objects and drawing similar conclusions based on similarities (while ignoring important differences) is a prime example of a false analogy.''

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_design#Problems_with_the_above
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-a-schwartz/intelligent-design-watchmaker_b_1730878.html

All things are machinery, because we take all our machines from examples in nature. Machines have makers. More complex machines have more complex makers. The complexity of machine universe is so great that the Maker of it fits the definition of God.

It's as simple as that. There is nothing that shows anything that is opposite to it. this makes all your talk to be political science.

Cool

^^^


But how do you know that all machines have makers, what makes you think that and do you have any evidence for it?

There is nothing that shows that all machines have makers either. If a rock or a mountain are machines then they have no maker. The only machines that have makers are things that humans made, everything else we don't know and you don't know either. You claim that because machines that humans made have makers (humans) then everything else that is a machine also have makers? How does that make any sense?
You don't know whether a mountain or the earth had a maker.

You lost badecker, just stop.



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HAS BEEN RELEASED!


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December 24, 2017, 08:54:22 PM
 #9052


There is nothing that shows that all machines have makers either. If a rock or a mountain are machines then they have no maker. The only machines that have makers are things that humans made, everything else we don't know and you don't know either. You claim that because machines that humans made have makers (humans) then everything else that is a machine also have makers? How does that make any sense?
You don't know whether a mountain or the earth had a maker.

You lost badecker, just stop.

You are losing, personally, just because you are unwilling to accept the overwhelming evidence and proof for the fact that the universe is a machine full of machines.

Come on out of your false religion, into the truth of reality.

Cool
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December 24, 2017, 09:20:51 PM
 #9053


There is nothing that shows that all machines have makers either. If a rock or a mountain are machines then they have no maker. The only machines that have makers are things that humans made, everything else we don't know and you don't know either. You claim that because machines that humans made have makers (humans) then everything else that is a machine also have makers? How does that make any sense?
You don't know whether a mountain or the earth had a maker.

You lost badecker, just stop.

You are losing, personally, just because you are unwilling to accept the overwhelming evidence and proof for the fact that the universe is a machine full of machines.

Come on out of your false religion, into the truth of reality.

Cool

Where is the evidence that all machines are designed though? We know things that we created are designed because WE (humans) created them but how do YOU know that all the others are also designed?




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HAS BEEN RELEASED!


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December 24, 2017, 10:47:15 PM
 #9054


There is nothing that shows that all machines have makers either. If a rock or a mountain are machines then they have no maker. The only machines that have makers are things that humans made, everything else we don't know and you don't know either. You claim that because machines that humans made have makers (humans) then everything else that is a machine also have makers? How does that make any sense?
You don't know whether a mountain or the earth had a maker.

You lost badecker, just stop.

You are losing, personally, just because you are unwilling to accept the overwhelming evidence and proof for the fact that the universe is a machine full of machines.

Come on out of your false religion, into the truth of reality.

Cool

Where is the evidence that all machines are designed though? We know things that we created are designed because WE (humans) created them but how do YOU know that all the others are also designed?



The methods that God uses are not necessarily design. But the obvious thing is that His ways are way far in advance of ours, just like one would expect from the real God. Such a thing as God making the universe without designing it shows how great His power really is. People can't simply "plop" some machine into existence. But if God can do it without designing it ahead of time, He is so far ahead of us that we can never hope to catch up.

Cool
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December 24, 2017, 10:55:15 PM
 #9055


There is nothing that shows that all machines have makers either. If a rock or a mountain are machines then they have no maker. The only machines that have makers are things that humans made, everything else we don't know and you don't know either. You claim that because machines that humans made have makers (humans) then everything else that is a machine also have makers? How does that make any sense?
You don't know whether a mountain or the earth had a maker.

You lost badecker, just stop.

You are losing, personally, just because you are unwilling to accept the overwhelming evidence and proof for the fact that the universe is a machine full of machines.

Come on out of your false religion, into the truth of reality.

Cool

Where is the evidence that all machines are designed though? We know things that we created are designed because WE (humans) created them but how do YOU know that all the others are also designed?



The methods that God uses are not necessarily design. But the obvious thing is that His ways are way far in advance of ours, just like one would expect from the real God. Such a thing as God making the universe without designing it shows how great His power really is. People can't simply "plop" some machine into existence. But if God can do it without designing it ahead of time, He is so far ahead of us that we can never hope to catch up.

Cool

But how do you know he did it, though?



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December 25, 2017, 01:15:40 AM
 #9056

Creation and the laws of nature, and I think even mathematics.
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December 25, 2017, 01:47:44 AM
 #9057


There is nothing that shows that all machines have makers either. If a rock or a mountain are machines then they have no maker. The only machines that have makers are things that humans made, everything else we don't know and you don't know either. You claim that because machines that humans made have makers (humans) then everything else that is a machine also have makers? How does that make any sense?
You don't know whether a mountain or the earth had a maker.

You lost badecker, just stop.

You are losing, personally, just because you are unwilling to accept the overwhelming evidence and proof for the fact that the universe is a machine full of machines.

Come on out of your false religion, into the truth of reality.

Cool

Where is the evidence that all machines are designed though? We know things that we created are designed because WE (humans) created them but how do YOU know that all the others are also designed?



The methods that God uses are not necessarily design. But the obvious thing is that His ways are way far in advance of ours, just like one would expect from the real God. Such a thing as God making the universe without designing it shows how great His power really is. People can't simply "plop" some machine into existence. But if God can do it without designing it ahead of time, He is so far ahead of us that we can never hope to catch up.

Cool

But how do you know he did it, though?

Something did it. The laws of cause and effect, entropy, and complexity, show us that whatever the "He" is, it fits the greatness of the definition of God.

Cool
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December 25, 2017, 03:54:33 AM
 #9058

Its ridiculous that people are trying to proof something beyond their brain with their brain.
Arrogant people.
If just you can create a real human like making a robot, then you have a shot.

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December 25, 2017, 04:24:30 AM
 #9059

Something did it. The laws of cause and effect, entropy, and complexity, show us that whatever the "He" is, it fits the greatness of the definition of God.

Machines don't need to be designed.  Evolution shows this. 

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I'm into creating universes, smiting people, writing holy books and listening to Prayer Messages (PMs).
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"Masturbation makes you feel good but doesn't do anything for the person you're thinking of.  Just like prayer."
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December 25, 2017, 04:27:17 AM
 #9060

Creating the earth can be tried and covered by the universe.
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