Scientific proof that God exists?

[BADecker]

Yes, I can prove just one "thing." The "thing" is outside-the-universe. If we were able to understand it as more than one thing, it would be part of the universe, simply by the fact of us being able to understand it that sufficiently.

What does this mean? It means that if you and I were in that outside-the-universe "realm," and we were part of it enough that we could understand it, there might be countless "things" that we would "see" and understand. But since we are not "out there," and don't have any understanding whatsoever of "it," the only thing we know is one "thing"... outside-the-universe.

The only two ways that this can be different are:
1. The universe Maker in some way allows information about outside-the-universe to come to us inside the universe, thereby telling us what the situation is outside-the-universe;
2. We find something within the universe that shows that the universe spontaneously made itself.

Number 1 is a religious idea, and would only be part of this topic if the OP and title had set it up that way. But it is easy to start other topics.

Number 2 is something that we have no example of even within the universe. Everything within the universe is made by something else. Just the idea of something spontaneously making itself doesn't fit with anything that we know. C&E is part of the example of this. So, there is no way to show that the universe might have made itself. Saying such would be directing towards a religion or philosophical thing.

Since I have said all this before, I have something to thank you for. The fact that you ask the question again, shows that my previous explanations weren't clear enough for you. And if they weren't clear enough for you, they probably weren't clear enough for at least a few other people, as well. So, you have given me chance to clarify. And every time I get to clarify, I get the way to explain situated in my mind. So, thank you for this.

Uhmm ....... ok ....... badecker, are you ok? I know at this point you have to desperately try to say something but come on.

We don't know what's outside the universe, then how can you claim it was god who created the universe if god should be outside the universe? Does the outside of the universe only allow room for 1 god? This is not proving that the universe wasn't caused by multiple causes, your argument is still bad.

Thank you for maintaining the science aspect of this thread, rather than applying number 1 that I said above.

Please explain, further, what you mean. After all, I answered what your questions seem to be, in my post you quoted, above.

What's outside the universe? God is outside the universe. Why is God One? Because that's all we know about outside the universe... not two outside-the-universes, but only the one outside-the-universe.

[Astargath]

Yes, I can prove just one "thing." The "thing" is outside-the-universe. If we were able to understand it as more than one thing, it would be part of the universe, simply by the fact of us being able to understand it that sufficiently.

What does this mean? It means that if you and I were in that outside-the-universe "realm," and we were part of it enough that we could understand it, there might be countless "things" that we would "see" and understand. But since we are not "out there," and don't have any understanding whatsoever of "it," the only thing we know is one "thing"... outside-the-universe.

The only two ways that this can be different are:
1. The universe Maker in some way allows information about outside-the-universe to come to us inside the universe, thereby telling us what the situation is outside-the-universe;
2. We find something within the universe that shows that the universe spontaneously made itself.

Number 1 is a religious idea, and would only be part of this topic if the OP and title had set it up that way. But it is easy to start other topics.

Number 2 is something that we have no example of even within the universe. Everything within the universe is made by something else. Just the idea of something spontaneously making itself doesn't fit with anything that we know. C&E is part of the example of this. So, there is no way to show that the universe might have made itself. Saying such would be directing towards a religion or philosophical thing.

Since I have said all this before, I have something to thank you for. The fact that you ask the question again, shows that my previous explanations weren't clear enough for you. And if they weren't clear enough for you, they probably weren't clear enough for at least a few other people, as well. So, you have given me chance to clarify. And every time I get to clarify, I get the way to explain situated in my mind. So, thank you for this.

Uhmm ....... ok ....... badecker, are you ok? I know at this point you have to desperately try to say something but come on.

We don't know what's outside the universe, then how can you claim it was god who created the universe if god should be outside the universe? Does the outside of the universe only allow room for 1 god? This is not proving that the universe wasn't caused by multiple causes, your argument is still bad.

Thank you for maintaining the science aspect of this thread, rather than applying number 1 that I said above.

Please explain, further, what you mean. After all, I answered what your questions seem to be, in my post you quoted, above.

What's outside the universe? God is outside the universe. Why is God One? Because that's all we know about outside the universe... not two outside-the-universes, but only the one outside-the-universe.

''Because that's all we know about outside the universe... not two outside-the-universes'' Do you realize how stupid this is? So the universe is just one, therefore inside the universe only 1 thing can exist? How come we have trillions of planets then?

What do you think outside the universe actually means? I don't think you really know, do you? Science doesn't even know if such thing exists but there are some theories, some of them even state that multiple universes exist so how can you claim it's only 1 god that created this universe and not multiple?

[BADecker]

''Because that's all we know about outside the universe... not two outside-the-universes'' Do you realize how stupid this is? So the universe is just one, therefore inside the universe only 1 thing can exist? How come we have trillions of planets then?

What do you think outside the universe actually means? I don't think you really know, do you? Science doesn't even know if such thing exists but there are some theories, some of them even state that multiple universes exist so how can you claim it's only 1 god that created this universe and not multiple?

Standard Astargath attempted deception. We know nothing about outside-the-universe. We know a lot about the universe (though only a fraction of things that are within). Did you get that? We know one thing about outside-the-universe. What is that one thing? That it is outside the universe. We don't know if it is complex or simple. We don't know if it has anything that we can understand or not. What we do know is one thing... outside-the-universe... one. That is, unlike within-the-universe, which we know there are many things, we don't know anything about without except that it is outside-the-universe, one thing.

You are right. Understanding what outside the universe really means is something people don't know. If they did, it would be part of the universe, like inside the universe. But, we know that the universe was made by something other than itself. Since it isn't in the universe, it is outside the universe.

When you get out there, count the things that are out there for us all... if you can even understand it. So far it is only one... outside the universe.

[Astargath]

''Because that's all we know about outside the universe... not two outside-the-universes'' Do you realize how stupid this is? So the universe is just one, therefore inside the universe only 1 thing can exist? How come we have trillions of planets then?

What do you think outside the universe actually means? I don't think you really know, do you? Science doesn't even know if such thing exists but there are some theories, some of them even state that multiple universes exist so how can you claim it's only 1 god that created this universe and not multiple?

Standard Astargath attempted deception. We know nothing about outside-the-universe. We know a lot about the universe (though only a fraction of things that are within). Did you get that? We know one thing about outside-the-universe. What is that one thing? That it is outside the universe. We don't know if it is complex or simple. We don't know if it has anything that we can understand or not. What we do know is one thing... outside-the-universe... one. That is, unlike within-the-universe, which we know there are many things, we don't know anything about without except that it is outside-the-universe, one thing.

You are right. Understanding what outside the universe really means is something people don't know. If they did, it would be part of the universe, like inside the universe. But, we know that the universe was made by something other than itself. Since it isn't in the universe, it is outside the universe.

When you get out there, count the things that are out there for us all... if you can even understand it. So far it is only one... outside the universe.

''We know one thing about outside-the-universe. What is that one thing? That it is outside the universe. '' We don't. We actually don't know if ''outside the universe'' exists or not.

''Understanding what outside the universe really means is something people don't know. If they did, it would be part of the universe'' Understanding what's outside the universe doesn't magically make it part of our universe.

[BADecker]

''Because that's all we know about outside the universe... not two outside-the-universes'' Do you realize how stupid this is? So the universe is just one, therefore inside the universe only 1 thing can exist? How come we have trillions of planets then?

What do you think outside the universe actually means? I don't think you really know, do you? Science doesn't even know if such thing exists but there are some theories, some of them even state that multiple universes exist so how can you claim it's only 1 god that created this universe and not multiple?

Standard Astargath attempted deception. We know nothing about outside-the-universe. We know a lot about the universe (though only a fraction of things that are within). Did you get that? We know one thing about outside-the-universe. What is that one thing? That it is outside the universe. We don't know if it is complex or simple. We don't know if it has anything that we can understand or not. What we do know is one thing... outside-the-universe... one. That is, unlike within-the-universe, which we know there are many things, we don't know anything about without except that it is outside-the-universe, one thing.

You are right. Understanding what outside the universe really means is something people don't know. If they did, it would be part of the universe, like inside the universe. But, we know that the universe was made by something other than itself. Since it isn't in the universe, it is outside the universe.

When you get out there, count the things that are out there for us all... if you can even understand it. So far it is only one... outside the universe.

''We know one thing about outside-the-universe. What is that one thing? That it is outside the universe. '' We don't. We actually don't know if ''outside the universe'' exists or not.

''Understanding what outside the universe really means is something people don't know. If they did, it would be part of the universe'' Understanding what's outside the universe doesn't magically make it part of our universe.

Whatever made the universe isn't wasn't within the universe when it made the universe. So, it was outside the universe. So, outside the universe exists... although the way that it might exist doesn't necessarily fit the word "exist."

If we can understand it according to universe stuff, it is universe stuff.

[Astargath]

''Because that's all we know about outside the universe... not two outside-the-universes'' Do you realize how stupid this is? So the universe is just one, therefore inside the universe only 1 thing can exist? How come we have trillions of planets then?

What do you think outside the universe actually means? I don't think you really know, do you? Science doesn't even know if such thing exists but there are some theories, some of them even state that multiple universes exist so how can you claim it's only 1 god that created this universe and not multiple?

Standard Astargath attempted deception. We know nothing about outside-the-universe. We know a lot about the universe (though only a fraction of things that are within). Did you get that? We know one thing about outside-the-universe. What is that one thing? That it is outside the universe. We don't know if it is complex or simple. We don't know if it has anything that we can understand or not. What we do know is one thing... outside-the-universe... one. That is, unlike within-the-universe, which we know there are many things, we don't know anything about without except that it is outside-the-universe, one thing.

You are right. Understanding what outside the universe really means is something people don't know. If they did, it would be part of the universe, like inside the universe. But, we know that the universe was made by something other than itself. Since it isn't in the universe, it is outside the universe.

When you get out there, count the things that are out there for us all... if you can even understand it. So far it is only one... outside the universe.

''We know one thing about outside-the-universe. What is that one thing? That it is outside the universe. '' We don't. We actually don't know if ''outside the universe'' exists or not.

''Understanding what outside the universe really means is something people don't know. If they did, it would be part of the universe'' Understanding what's outside the universe doesn't magically make it part of our universe.

Whatever made the universe isn't wasn't within the universe when it made the universe. So, it was outside the universe. So, outside the universe exists... although the way that it might exist doesn't necessarily fit the word "exist."

If we can understand it according to universe stuff, it is universe stuff.

''Whatever made the universe isn't wasn't within the universe when it made the universe. So, it was outside the universe.'' Prove it.

[BADecker]

Before he does that.  He should prove that something made the universe.

We haven't found even one thing in the universe that came about spontaneously.

We haven't found even one thing that we know for a fact was not made.

But we have found countless numbers of things that were made by something.

The whole operation of the universe that we know of is based on chains of things making other things.

Entropy shows that there was a beginning to the universe, and that the beginning wasn't in the too distant past. If there were no beginning, or if the beginning were far in the past, entropy would have broken down all the complexity that exists, by dispersing and diffusing everything in the universe, long ago.

Combining all this shows that "something" outside the universe made the universe.

[Astargath]

Before he does that.  He should prove that something made the universe.

We haven't found even one thing in the universe that came about spontaneously.

We haven't found even one thing that we know for a fact was not made.

But we have found countless numbers of things that were made by something.

The whole operation of the universe that we know of is based on chains of things making other things.

Entropy shows that there was a beginning to the universe, and that the beginning wasn't in the too distant past. If there were no beginning, or if the beginning were far in the past, entropy would have broken down all the complexity that exists, by dispersing and diffusing everything in the universe, long ago.

Combining all this shows that "something" outside the universe made the universe.

''Combining all this shows that "something" outside the universe'' BOOP WRONG. 

First of all, ''We haven't found even one thing in the universe that came about spontaneously.'' How do you know such thing doesn't exist? We know perhaps 0.000000000000001% of the whole universe, does it matter if we haven't found something like that?

''But we have found countless numbers of things that were made by something.'' By something inside the universe not ''outside it''

Big bang made the universe according to science.

[BADecker]

Before he does that.  He should prove that something made the universe.

We haven't found even one thing in the universe that came about spontaneously.

We haven't found even one thing that we know for a fact was not made.

But we have found countless numbers of things that were made by something.

The whole operation of the universe that we know of is based on chains of things making other things.

Entropy shows that there was a beginning to the universe, and that the beginning wasn't in the too distant past. If there were no beginning, or if the beginning were far in the past, entropy would have broken down all the complexity that exists, by dispersing and diffusing everything in the universe, long ago.

Combining all this shows that "something" outside the universe made the universe.

''Combining all this shows that "something" outside the universe'' BOOP WRONG. 

First of all, ''We haven't found even one thing in the universe that came about spontaneously.'' How do you know such thing doesn't exist? We know perhaps 0.000000000000001% of the whole universe, does it matter if we haven't found something like that?

''But we have found countless numbers of things that were made by something.'' By something inside the universe not ''outside it''

Big bang made the universe according to science.

We can only estimate the numbers of things that were made by something else, because that number is so great. But we don't have even one factual spontaneous generation. Scientifically, spontaneous generation hasn't happened, even though anyone can keep on guessing or hoping for it.

No, big bang did NOT make the universe according to science. That is just talk. Rather, big bang might be able to make some form of universe, but so far no big bang theory has been produced that could account for life. In addition, even if big bang really exists, nobody knows for a fact that it accounts for our universe.

[Astargath]

Before he does that.  He should prove that something made the universe.

We haven't found even one thing in the universe that came about spontaneously.

We haven't found even one thing that we know for a fact was not made.

But we have found countless numbers of things that were made by something.

The whole operation of the universe that we know of is based on chains of things making other things.

Entropy shows that there was a beginning to the universe, and that the beginning wasn't in the too distant past. If there were no beginning, or if the beginning were far in the past, entropy would have broken down all the complexity that exists, by dispersing and diffusing everything in the universe, long ago.

Combining all this shows that "something" outside the universe made the universe.

''Combining all this shows that "something" outside the universe'' BOOP WRONG. 

First of all, ''We haven't found even one thing in the universe that came about spontaneously.'' How do you know such thing doesn't exist? We know perhaps 0.000000000000001% of the whole universe, does it matter if we haven't found something like that?

''But we have found countless numbers of things that were made by something.'' By something inside the universe not ''outside it''

Big bang made the universe according to science.

We can only estimate the numbers of things that were made by something else, because that number is so great. But we don't have even one factual spontaneous generation. Scientifically, spontaneous generation hasn't happened, even though anyone can keep on guessing or hoping for it.

No, big bang did NOT make the universe according to science. That is just talk. Rather, big bang might be able to make some form of universe, but so far no big bang theory has been produced that could account for life. In addition, even if big bang really exists, nobody knows for a fact that it accounts for our universe.

It's funny because you don't realize that what you are saying directly disproves god. ''But we don't have even one factual spontaneous generation.'' So you are saying god did not spontaneously generate the planets, stars, animals, the universe?

[BADecker]

It's funny because you don't realize that what you are saying directly disproves god. ''But we don't have even one factual spontaneous generation.'' So you are saying god did not spontaneously generate the planets, stars, animals, the universe?

is it required that God created the universe by spontaneous generation? We don't know how He created the universe, scientifically. God, being outside the universe, has His own ways of doing things. Just because we recognize many things within the universe as being made by other things in the universe, doesn't mean God did it that way, or spontaneously, when He made the universe. What ever way He did it, we don't know, scientifically.

As an example, at least one religion says that He spoke the universe into being. I don't mean to make this into a religious post. All I am showing is an example of a kind of cause that we don't understand. That's why God is scientifically called, at times, The Great First Cause.

It seems like you don't like the idea of God, whatever He/It happens to be. So you limit your ability to think objectively, just to focus on what you want, rather than what exists. Why are you so against science that you won't accept scientific proof when you are shown it, yet you often accept as scientific proof, some scientific theory, which is known to not be factual? What do you have against science?

[Vod]

Both science and religion say the big bang and evolution are facts.  Who cares anymore what one idiot thinks.  

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-declares-evolution-and-big-bang-theory-are-right-and-god-isnt-a-magician-with-a-magic-9822514.html

[BADecker]

Since God created science and authorized religion, both of them for the benefit of people, He cares what people think... so that they are saved.

[Astargath]

It's funny because you don't realize that what you are saying directly disproves god. ''But we don't have even one factual spontaneous generation.'' So you are saying god did not spontaneously generate the planets, stars, animals, the universe?

is it required that God created the universe by spontaneous generation? We don't know how He created the universe, scientifically. God, being outside the universe, has His own ways of doing things. Just because we recognize many things within the universe as being made by other things in the universe, doesn't mean God did it that way, or spontaneously, when He made the universe. What ever way He did it, we don't know, scientifically.

As an example, at least one religion says that He spoke the universe into being. I don't mean to make this into a religious post. All I am showing is an example of a kind of cause that we don't understand. That's why God is scientifically called, at times, The Great First Cause.

It seems like you don't like the idea of God, whatever He/It happens to be. So you limit your ability to think objectively, just to focus on what you want, rather than what exists. Why are you so against science that you won't accept scientific proof when you are shown it, yet you often accept as scientific proof, some scientific theory, which is known to not be factual? What do you have against science?

You said, there is only ''1 thing outside the universe'' which you claim it's god. If god created the universe, where did he get the ''materials'' to do so? Was it not spontaneously generated?

[ATMD]

You said, there is only ''1 thing outside the universe'' which you claim it's god. If god created the universe, where did he get the ''materials'' to do so? Was it not spontaneously generated?

If I understand this correctly, BADecker is claiming that the universe was spontaneously generated by God
He does not believe that something can be spontaneously generated by itself

Am I correct BADecker?

[Astargath]

You said, there is only ''1 thing outside the universe'' which you claim it's god. If god created the universe, where did he get the ''materials'' to do so? Was it not spontaneously generated?

If I understand this correctly, BADecker is claiming that the universe was spontaneously generated by God
He does not believe that something can be spontaneously generated by itself

Am I correct BADecker?

His argument goes like this: The universe had a beginning and anything that causes something else, has to be more complex (whatever that means). Therefore god created the universe. Problem is, how do we know it wasn't gods, or something else that created the universe?

[ATMD]

You said, there is only ''1 thing outside the universe'' which you claim it's god. If god created the universe, where did he get the ''materials'' to do so? Was it not spontaneously generated?

If I understand this correctly, BADecker is claiming that the universe was spontaneously generated by God
He does not believe that something can be spontaneously generated by itself

Am I correct BADecker?

His argument goes like this: The universe had a beginning and anything that causes something else, has to be more complex (whatever that means). Therefore god created the universe. Problem is, how do we know it wasn't gods, or something else that created the universe?

Thank you Astargath for clarifying.

[BADecker]

You said, there is only ''1 thing outside the universe'' which you claim it's god. If god created the universe, where did he get the ''materials'' to do so? Was it not spontaneously generated?

If I understand this correctly, BADecker is claiming that the universe was spontaneously generated by God
He does not believe that something can be spontaneously generated by itself

Am I correct BADecker?

His argument goes like this: The universe had a beginning and anything that causes something else, has to be more complex (whatever that means). Therefore god created the universe. Problem is, how do we know it wasn't gods, or something else that created the universe?

Thank you Astargath for clarifying.

Actually, that isn't how the points go. Astargath, being the deceptive troll that he is, didn't mention cause and effect, which covers everything, including free will.

For proof that God exists, see:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1355109.msg14047133#msg14047133
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1662153.40
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg16803380#msg16803380.

[BADecker]

You said, there is only ''1 thing outside the universe'' which you claim it's god. If god created the universe, where did he get the ''materials'' to do so? Was it not spontaneously generated?

If I understand this correctly, BADecker is claiming that the universe was spontaneously generated by God
He does not believe that something can be spontaneously generated by itself

Am I correct BADecker?

His argument goes like this: The universe had a beginning and anything that causes something else, has to be more complex (whatever that means). Therefore god created the universe. Problem is, how do we know it wasn't gods, or something else that created the universe?

Thank you Astargath for clarifying.

Actually, that isn't how the points go. Astargath, being the deceptive troll that he is, didn't mention cause and effect, which covers everything, including free will.

For proof that God exists, see:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1355109.msg14047133#msg14047133
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1662153.40
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1054513.msg16803380#msg16803380.

and you are forgetting that for your cause to exist there would have to be a time the cause could exist in. - Remember, the Great First Cause is something that exists outside of time, because It causes time, as well as the universe. However, you are being caused by a collusion of many causes, to post as you do.

Before the Big Bang there was no time, i.e. the cause could not exist. - In simple form, because there was no BB. In complex form, basically what I have been saying all along, that before time existed, there was no time. That which is outside of the universe to cause it, isn't made out of anything within the universe.

Sleep on it, eventually, it will sink in.

Calculate out what I said in this post. Then be honest, and let us know that you doubt the things that you say, even if you won't accept the things that I say.

[Brandonkimm]

I really think that the Holy Bible is the only living proof that we have, it may not be scientific, but it's enough for those who believes.