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Author Topic: Scientific proof that God exists?  (Read 802615 times)
BADecker
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October 18, 2017, 07:56:45 PM
 #8501

''We are greater intelligence making lesser intelligence.'' That depends, if you have a son and he is more intelligent than you, does that mean you are able to make greater intelligence with lesser intelligence? Even If I agree with all your points and everything suggests that there has to be a greater intelligence that created the universe, your argument never mentions or shows why that being  would be god and not something else. There is nothing to suggest your god did it and not some other entity.

People don't make their children. They get them started by having fun, and nature takes over and makes the kids. Your deception only helps to strengthen the fact that there is proof that god exists.

The reason the being would be God is that He is supremely capable, not only in the ways that we are, but in multitudes of ways we are not enabled. Why is He that way? He is that way because He programmed everything by cause and effect. Such programming is not even fathomable by people. I have shown and told this to you on many occasions, but you just slide by it and ignore it.

So, thanks for strengthening the fact that God exists... in the minds of others.

Cool

So the reason that being would be god is because god is supremely capable, you see the circular reasoning there right? You can't say the reason the creator of the universe has to be god because god bla bla. You have to prove god, you can prove god with god, that's nonsense

No circular reasoning. Don't use the word "God" for a moment. Imagine that big bang made the universe. Wouldn't big bang have to be extremely capable to make something like the universe? We are so week in our theory making, that there is only a tiny amount of stuff in BB theory that fits what it would take to make the universe and all the complexity therein. There isn't any of the strength, knowledge, capability in BB to make a universe like ours.

Whatever made the universe fits the definition of God regarding the power, intelligence, personal identity, emotion, and a whole lot of other factors that BB would need to accomplish this gigantic feat.

Cause and effect combined with complexity shows us that there is no other way to approach this subject. If there is, show it to us. Or are you saying we just don't know and probably never will? Any other way would have to include pure random.

Cool

''Whatever made the universe fits the definition of God'' Which god, certainly not your god (Bible god) If we can't know who did it exactly then there is no point, you are just defining god as the creator of the universe, ok, so? What other attributes does he posses, is he like us, from another universe, we can't know anything about him/her/it, you can just say it's god but there is nothing else after that, you don't have any type of evidence to indicate what he really is, you just keep calling him god.

God: creator of the universe
Your argument: Well the creator of the universe is god
Me: Who is god
You: god is the creator of the universe

Circular reasoning.
Science is fundamentally circular as well. God vs no god is thus no more than entertainment that some people choose to take way too seriously. The whole idea of a God is definitely made up and expressed by humans.

However, at the same time there definitely exists an omnipresent and omniscient something, namely the entirety of existence. Calling that entirety God is perfectly legitimate and something that most rampant atheists are too ignorant and/or arrogant to realize.
Whether or not that entirety is conscious is a different question (and an odd one at that, as there wouldn't be any change to be conscious of for something that is everything - temporal, spatial, etc. - at once), but we can't even answer what human consciousness means in any satisfactory way. Alas, any and every God debate is no more than a mental exercise or just yet another way to pass time as a human being at best, and a way to manipulate others at worst.

Problem is, you can call it many many different things, there is no value in calling it god just like there is no value in calling it an alien from another dimension or a computer program simulation, all of those would be perfectly legitimate too then but what's the point, we don't have sufficient evidence for any of them and we may never have, at least in our lifetimes. I recognize the possibility of a intelligent creator, there is no evidence that something like that could exist but because there is also no evidence it does I simply don't believe it. The problem I have is people who actually say they KNOW or they have PROVED god existence when it's simply not true. I'm not an atheist and I really don't like to label anyone with silly tags.

That's right. The word "God" is way too small for Him.

You honor certain people in you life. If a friend of yourse does something good for you, you honor Him by saying "Thank you."

God made a wonderful universe, and gave you a wonderful life.... things far more wonderful than any goodness any friend might do for you. But you don't even want to honor God by recognizing that He exists.

You are worse than a bug in a computer program. The only reason He puts up with you is that He sees potential greatness in you. If you won't take hold of your greatness by honoring Him, there will come a time when the cause and effect that He uses to hold you in place will fail for you. He doesn't really need something that won't fit into His plans, but constantly rebels against Him.

Cool
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October 18, 2017, 10:06:03 PM
 #8502

I don't think there is any scientific proof as to the existence of God. Because God is omnipotent and omniscience. His existence is beyond human comprehension.

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October 18, 2017, 10:25:00 PM
 #8503

Why are people hell bent on trying to proof something that cannot be proved or disproved either way. Simple answer here is we will not know until something extraordinary or miraculous happens to the earth. At which point

one side of the people can say "I told you so" to the other side. Until then we wait for something insane like warrior aliens gracing the Earth and for some "savior" to come and protect us. I have my popcorn ready I do

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BADecker
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October 19, 2017, 01:40:48 AM
 #8504

Why are people hell bent on trying to proof something that cannot be proved or disproved either way. Simple answer here is we will not know until something extraordinary or miraculous happens to the earth. At which point

one side of the people can say "I told you so" to the other side. Until then we wait for something insane like warrior aliens gracing the Earth and for some "savior" to come and protect us. I have my popcorn ready I do

Definition of "miracle" from Dictionary.com:
miracle
[mir-uh-kuh l]

noun

1. an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

2. such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.

3. a wonder; marvel.

4. a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality:
a miracle of modern acoustics.

Let's examine.

1. The universe might not be a miracle in itself, because it is a natural thing in its operation. But the fact that the universe exists is a miracle. Why? Because nobody knows how it can exist the way it exists, and multitudes of people ascribe its existence to a supernatural cause. See the topic Do you believe in god? at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1566146.0 for many people right in this forum who ascribe the making of the universe to a supernatural cause.

2. See the last part of #1 directly above, plus all the religions that claim the same.

3. The universe, as well as multitudes of individual "things" within the universe, are considered by almost all people to be wonders and marvels.

4. People are constantly finding and developing marvelous discoveries and inventions, all based on something that they see in nature, and usually something that is greater than their marvelous discovery or invention. These are called "miracles" right in the definition.


How many more miracles do you want? I mean, you have millions right in the universe. They are miracles because we don't easily understand how they could exist, and we don't understand how the universe could exists at all. If you say big bang, BB simply skirts the outside of the idea a little, but doesn't account for most of what goes on in nature.

The existence of the universe is a miracle, and there are multitudes of smaller miracles that make up the universe one way or another.

Cool
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October 19, 2017, 01:43:27 AM
 #8505

Why are people hell bent on trying to proof something that cannot be proved or disproved either way. Simple answer here is we will not know until something extraordinary or miraculous happens to the earth. At which point

one side of the people can say "I told you so" to the other side. Until then we wait for something insane like warrior aliens gracing the Earth and for some "savior" to come and protect us. I have my popcorn ready I do

Definition of "miracle" from Dictionary.com:
miracle
[mir-uh-kuh l]

noun

1. an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

2. such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.

3. a wonder; marvel.

4. a wonderful or surpassing example of some quality:
a miracle of modern acoustics.

Let's examine.

1. The universe might not be a miracle in itself, because it is a natural thing in its operation. But the fact that the universe exists is a miracle. Why? Because nobody knows how it can exist the way it exists, and multitudes of people ascribe its existence to a supernatural cause. See the topic Do you believe in god? at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1566146.0 for many people right in this forum who ascribe the making of the universe to a supernatural cause.

2. See the last part of #1 directly above, plus all the religions that claim the same.

3. The universe, as well as multitudes of individual "things" within the universe, are considered by almost all people to be wonders and marvels.

4. People are constantly finding and developing marvelous discoveries and inventions, all based on something that they see in nature, and usually something that is greater than their marvelous discovery or invention. These are called "miracles" right in the definition.


How many more miracles do you want? I mean, you have millions right in the universe. They are miracles because we don't easily understand how they could exist, and we don't understand how the universe could exists at all. If you say big bang, BB simply skirts the outside of the idea a little, but doesn't account for most of what goes on in nature.

The existence of the universe is a miracle, and there are multitudes of smaller miracles that make up the universe one way or another.

Cool

There is also an incredible amount of order and consistency in the universe, there are principles which govern laws and hierarchical systems. These types of extremely complex consistent systems don't just "accidentally happen"

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October 19, 2017, 04:10:40 AM
 #8506

Actually this matter is completle verify men to men.somebody believe and sombody do not.
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October 19, 2017, 08:26:43 AM
 #8507

Even the pope - the leader of the christian cult - now says evolution and the big bang is true.   Smiley

I'm into creating universes, smiting people, writing holy books and listening to Prayer Messages (PMs).
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October 19, 2017, 08:29:56 AM
 #8508

''We are greater intelligence making lesser intelligence.'' That depends, if you have a son and he is more intelligent than you, does that mean you are able to make greater intelligence with lesser intelligence? Even If I agree with all your points and everything suggests that there has to be a greater intelligence that created the universe, your argument never mentions or shows why that being  would be god and not something else. There is nothing to suggest your god did it and not some other entity.

People don't make their children. They get them started by having fun, and nature takes over and makes the kids. Your deception only helps to strengthen the fact that there is proof that god exists.

The reason the being would be God is that He is supremely capable, not only in the ways that we are, but in multitudes of ways we are not enabled. Why is He that way? He is that way because He programmed everything by cause and effect. Such programming is not even fathomable by people. I have shown and told this to you on many occasions, but you just slide by it and ignore it.

So, thanks for strengthening the fact that God exists... in the minds of others.

Cool

So the reason that being would be god is because god is supremely capable, you see the circular reasoning there right? You can't say the reason the creator of the universe has to be god because god bla bla. You have to prove god, you can prove god with god, that's nonsense

No circular reasoning. Don't use the word "God" for a moment. Imagine that big bang made the universe. Wouldn't big bang have to be extremely capable to make something like the universe? We are so week in our theory making, that there is only a tiny amount of stuff in BB theory that fits what it would take to make the universe and all the complexity therein. There isn't any of the strength, knowledge, capability in BB to make a universe like ours.

Whatever made the universe fits the definition of God regarding the power, intelligence, personal identity, emotion, and a whole lot of other factors that BB would need to accomplish this gigantic feat.

Cause and effect combined with complexity shows us that there is no other way to approach this subject. If there is, show it to us. Or are you saying we just don't know and probably never will? Any other way would have to include pure random.

Cool

''Whatever made the universe fits the definition of God'' Which god, certainly not your god (Bible god) If we can't know who did it exactly then there is no point, you are just defining god as the creator of the universe, ok, so? What other attributes does he posses, is he like us, from another universe, we can't know anything about him/her/it, you can just say it's god but there is nothing else after that, you don't have any type of evidence to indicate what he really is, you just keep calling him god.

God: creator of the universe
Your argument: Well the creator of the universe is god
Me: Who is god
You: god is the creator of the universe

Circular reasoning.
Science is fundamentally circular as well. God vs no god is thus no more than entertainment that some people choose to take way too seriously. The whole idea of a God is definitely made up and expressed by humans.

However, at the same time there definitely exists an omnipresent and omniscient something, namely the entirety of existence. Calling that entirety God is perfectly legitimate and something that most rampant atheists are too ignorant and/or arrogant to realize.
Whether or not that entirety is conscious is a different question (and an odd one at that, as there wouldn't be any change to be conscious of for something that is everything - temporal, spatial, etc. - at once), but we can't even answer what human consciousness means in any satisfactory way. Alas, any and every God debate is no more than a mental exercise or just yet another way to pass time as a human being at best, and a way to manipulate others at worst.

Problem is, you can call it many many different things, there is no value in calling it god just like there is no value in calling it an alien from another dimension or a computer program simulation, all of those would be perfectly legitimate too then but what's the point, we don't have sufficient evidence for any of them and we may never have, at least in our lifetimes. I recognize the possibility of a intelligent creator, there is no evidence that something like that could exist but because there is also no evidence it does I simply don't believe it. The problem I have is people who actually say they KNOW or they have PROVED god existence when it's simply not true. I'm not an atheist and I really don't like to label anyone with silly tags.
By your argument, you could also say that there is no value in calling it "Big Bang", "the universe", "everything" or "empty space". Which is just simply false. Depending on the circumstances you need to adapt your language to get a message across. You usually can't hope to speak Spanish to a Chinese person. Using different terminology for the same thing is no different.
And again, when it comes to "proof", it simply doesn't exist. You can not prove anything whatsoever. You can collect evidence, and it might be enough to get everyone to move on with their lives and to assume that they've figured something out. But in the end, no amount of evidence will ever be conclusive and thus will never constitute as an ultimate proof.
Anyone who claims to have proof of anything either uses the term loosely or doesn't know what they are talking about.

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October 19, 2017, 09:37:17 AM
 #8509

''We are greater intelligence making lesser intelligence.'' That depends, if you have a son and he is more intelligent than you, does that mean you are able to make greater intelligence with lesser intelligence? Even If I agree with all your points and everything suggests that there has to be a greater intelligence that created the universe, your argument never mentions or shows why that being  would be god and not something else. There is nothing to suggest your god did it and not some other entity.

People don't make their children. They get them started by having fun, and nature takes over and makes the kids. Your deception only helps to strengthen the fact that there is proof that god exists.

The reason the being would be God is that He is supremely capable, not only in the ways that we are, but in multitudes of ways we are not enabled. Why is He that way? He is that way because He programmed everything by cause and effect. Such programming is not even fathomable by people. I have shown and told this to you on many occasions, but you just slide by it and ignore it.

So, thanks for strengthening the fact that God exists... in the minds of others.

Cool

So the reason that being would be god is because god is supremely capable, you see the circular reasoning there right? You can't say the reason the creator of the universe has to be god because god bla bla. You have to prove god, you can prove god with god, that's nonsense

No circular reasoning. Don't use the word "God" for a moment. Imagine that big bang made the universe. Wouldn't big bang have to be extremely capable to make something like the universe? We are so week in our theory making, that there is only a tiny amount of stuff in BB theory that fits what it would take to make the universe and all the complexity therein. There isn't any of the strength, knowledge, capability in BB to make a universe like ours.

Whatever made the universe fits the definition of God regarding the power, intelligence, personal identity, emotion, and a whole lot of other factors that BB would need to accomplish this gigantic feat.

Cause and effect combined with complexity shows us that there is no other way to approach this subject. If there is, show it to us. Or are you saying we just don't know and probably never will? Any other way would have to include pure random.

Cool

''Whatever made the universe fits the definition of God'' Which god, certainly not your god (Bible god) If we can't know who did it exactly then there is no point, you are just defining god as the creator of the universe, ok, so? What other attributes does he posses, is he like us, from another universe, we can't know anything about him/her/it, you can just say it's god but there is nothing else after that, you don't have any type of evidence to indicate what he really is, you just keep calling him god.

God: creator of the universe
Your argument: Well the creator of the universe is god
Me: Who is god
You: god is the creator of the universe

Circular reasoning.
Science is fundamentally circular as well. God vs no god is thus no more than entertainment that some people choose to take way too seriously. The whole idea of a God is definitely made up and expressed by humans.

However, at the same time there definitely exists an omnipresent and omniscient something, namely the entirety of existence. Calling that entirety God is perfectly legitimate and something that most rampant atheists are too ignorant and/or arrogant to realize.
Whether or not that entirety is conscious is a different question (and an odd one at that, as there wouldn't be any change to be conscious of for something that is everything - temporal, spatial, etc. - at once), but we can't even answer what human consciousness means in any satisfactory way. Alas, any and every God debate is no more than a mental exercise or just yet another way to pass time as a human being at best, and a way to manipulate others at worst.

Problem is, you can call it many many different things, there is no value in calling it god just like there is no value in calling it an alien from another dimension or a computer program simulation, all of those would be perfectly legitimate too then but what's the point, we don't have sufficient evidence for any of them and we may never have, at least in our lifetimes. I recognize the possibility of a intelligent creator, there is no evidence that something like that could exist but because there is also no evidence it does I simply don't believe it. The problem I have is people who actually say they KNOW or they have PROVED god existence when it's simply not true. I'm not an atheist and I really don't like to label anyone with silly tags.
By your argument, you could also say that there is no value in calling it "Big Bang", "the universe", "everything" or "empty space". Which is just simply false. Depending on the circumstances you need to adapt your language to get a message across. You usually can't hope to speak Spanish to a Chinese person. Using different terminology for the same thing is no different.
And again, when it comes to "proof", it simply doesn't exist. You can not prove anything whatsoever. You can collect evidence, and it might be enough to get everyone to move on with their lives and to assume that they've figured something out. But in the end, no amount of evidence will ever be conclusive and thus will never constitute as an ultimate proof.
Anyone who claims to have proof of anything either uses the term loosely or doesn't know what they are talking about.

No, you totally misunderstood what I said just like badecker didn't even attempt to understand because he knows I'm right. The point is that big bang was a name given to something that was observed, all the evidence led to that assumption and the assumption was simply called big bang and it could have been called anything. God on the other hand is not like that, we didn't observe him, we don't have evidence for him. The point is that god is like ghost or like demon or any other imaginary creature you can find, we never observed them, we don't have evidence for them, their descriptions are made up, big bang's description is not made up, is backed up by science and evidence so even if it was called big poop it would still have the same qualities and description that are real. There is no point in saying the creator of the universe is god when we don't know what god is, I think that's pretty simple to understand. The logic is circular, you are saying the creator of the universe is god and then you are describing god as the creator of the universe, no information is gained from this, you might as well call it holly poop, what do I care? If we don't know what it really is, then there is no point.



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October 19, 2017, 10:21:34 AM
 #8510

Problem is, you can call it many many different things, there is no value in calling it god just like there is no value in calling it an alien from another dimension or a computer program simulation, all of those would be perfectly legitimate too then but what's the point, we don't have sufficient evidence for any of them and we may never have, at least in our lifetimes. I recognize the possibility of a intelligent creator, there is no evidence that something like that could exist but because there is also no evidence it does I simply don't believe it. The problem I have is people who actually say they KNOW or they have PROVED god existence when it's simply not true. I'm not an atheist and I really don't like to label anyone with silly tags.
By your argument, you could also say that there is no value in calling it "Big Bang", "the universe", "everything" or "empty space". Which is just simply false. Depending on the circumstances you need to adapt your language to get a message across. You usually can't hope to speak Spanish to a Chinese person. Using different terminology for the same thing is no different.
And again, when it comes to "proof", it simply doesn't exist. You can not prove anything whatsoever. You can collect evidence, and it might be enough to get everyone to move on with their lives and to assume that they've figured something out. But in the end, no amount of evidence will ever be conclusive and thus will never constitute as an ultimate proof.
Anyone who claims to have proof of anything either uses the term loosely or doesn't know what they are talking about.

No, you totally misunderstood what I said just like badecker didn't even attempt to understand because he knows I'm right. The point is that big bang was a name given to something that was observed, all the evidence led to that assumption and the assumption was simply called big bang and it could have been called anything. God on the other hand is not like that, we didn't observe him, we don't have evidence for him. The point is that god is like ghost or like demon or any other imaginary creature you can find, we never observed them, we don't have evidence for them, their descriptions are made up, big bang's description is not made up, is backed up by science and evidence so even if it was called big poop it would still have the same qualities and description that are real. There is no point in saying the creator of the universe is god when we don't know what god is, I think that's pretty simple to understand. The logic is circular, you are saying the creator of the universe is god and then you are describing god as the creator of the universe, no information is gained from this, you might as well call it holly poop, what do I care? If we don't know what it really is, then there is no point.
The big bang is not something that was observed whatsoever... That statement makes the rest of your post largely irrelevant since it indicates that you don't even understand what the Big Bang really is about. And as far as misunderstandings go, it's obvious that you haven't gotten my point, since you're just rephrasing the same false statement that I've already addressed previously.
You're also putting words into my mouth that I've never said or implied.

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October 19, 2017, 10:37:12 AM
 #8511

Problem is, you can call it many many different things, there is no value in calling it god just like there is no value in calling it an alien from another dimension or a computer program simulation, all of those would be perfectly legitimate too then but what's the point, we don't have sufficient evidence for any of them and we may never have, at least in our lifetimes. I recognize the possibility of a intelligent creator, there is no evidence that something like that could exist but because there is also no evidence it does I simply don't believe it. The problem I have is people who actually say they KNOW or they have PROVED god existence when it's simply not true. I'm not an atheist and I really don't like to label anyone with silly tags.
By your argument, you could also say that there is no value in calling it "Big Bang", "the universe", "everything" or "empty space". Which is just simply false. Depending on the circumstances you need to adapt your language to get a message across. You usually can't hope to speak Spanish to a Chinese person. Using different terminology for the same thing is no different.
And again, when it comes to "proof", it simply doesn't exist. You can not prove anything whatsoever. You can collect evidence, and it might be enough to get everyone to move on with their lives and to assume that they've figured something out. But in the end, no amount of evidence will ever be conclusive and thus will never constitute as an ultimate proof.
Anyone who claims to have proof of anything either uses the term loosely or doesn't know what they are talking about.

No, you totally misunderstood what I said just like badecker didn't even attempt to understand because he knows I'm right. The point is that big bang was a name given to something that was observed, all the evidence led to that assumption and the assumption was simply called big bang and it could have been called anything. God on the other hand is not like that, we didn't observe him, we don't have evidence for him. The point is that god is like ghost or like demon or any other imaginary creature you can find, we never observed them, we don't have evidence for them, their descriptions are made up, big bang's description is not made up, is backed up by science and evidence so even if it was called big poop it would still have the same qualities and description that are real. There is no point in saying the creator of the universe is god when we don't know what god is, I think that's pretty simple to understand. The logic is circular, you are saying the creator of the universe is god and then you are describing god as the creator of the universe, no information is gained from this, you might as well call it holly poop, what do I care? If we don't know what it really is, then there is no point.
The big bang is not something that was observed whatsoever... That statement makes the rest of your post largely irrelevant since it indicates that you don't even understand what the Big Bang really is about. And as far as misunderstandings go, it's obvious that you haven't gotten my point, since you're just rephrasing the same false statement that I've already addressed previously.
You're also putting words into my mouth that I've never said or implied.

No, the big bang has evidence that backs it up, god DOES NOT, neither have been observed, ton of things haven't been observed because it's impossible, the point again is that god is something made up and the big bang is not, whether you want to understand that or not it's up to you.



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October 19, 2017, 10:56:16 AM
 #8512

Problem is, you can call it many many different things, there is no value in calling it god just like there is no value in calling it an alien from another dimension or a computer program simulation, all of those would be perfectly legitimate too then but what's the point, we don't have sufficient evidence for any of them and we may never have, at least in our lifetimes. I recognize the possibility of a intelligent creator, there is no evidence that something like that could exist but because there is also no evidence it does I simply don't believe it. The problem I have is people who actually say they KNOW or they have PROVED god existence when it's simply not true. I'm not an atheist and I really don't like to label anyone with silly tags.
By your argument, you could also say that there is no value in calling it "Big Bang", "the universe", "everything" or "empty space". Which is just simply false. Depending on the circumstances you need to adapt your language to get a message across. You usually can't hope to speak Spanish to a Chinese person. Using different terminology for the same thing is no different.
And again, when it comes to "proof", it simply doesn't exist. You can not prove anything whatsoever. You can collect evidence, and it might be enough to get everyone to move on with their lives and to assume that they've figured something out. But in the end, no amount of evidence will ever be conclusive and thus will never constitute as an ultimate proof.
Anyone who claims to have proof of anything either uses the term loosely or doesn't know what they are talking about.

No, you totally misunderstood what I said just like badecker didn't even attempt to understand because he knows I'm right. The point is that big bang was a name given to something that was observed, all the evidence led to that assumption and the assumption was simply called big bang and it could have been called anything. God on the other hand is not like that, we didn't observe him, we don't have evidence for him. The point is that god is like ghost or like demon or any other imaginary creature you can find, we never observed them, we don't have evidence for them, their descriptions are made up, big bang's description is not made up, is backed up by science and evidence so even if it was called big poop it would still have the same qualities and description that are real. There is no point in saying the creator of the universe is god when we don't know what god is, I think that's pretty simple to understand. The logic is circular, you are saying the creator of the universe is god and then you are describing god as the creator of the universe, no information is gained from this, you might as well call it holly poop, what do I care? If we don't know what it really is, then there is no point.
The big bang is not something that was observed whatsoever... That statement makes the rest of your post largely irrelevant since it indicates that you don't even understand what the Big Bang really is about. And as far as misunderstandings go, it's obvious that you haven't gotten my point, since you're just rephrasing the same false statement that I've already addressed previously.
You're also putting words into my mouth that I've never said or implied.

No, the big bang has evidence that backs it up, god DOES NOT, neither have been observed, ton of things haven't been observed because it's impossible, the point again is that god is something made up and the big bang is not, whether you want to understand that or not it's up to you.
The big bang is made up. It's just one hypothetical concept that could possibly explain the creation of the universe. There are various competing hypothesis other than the big bang as well and nobody knows which one is actually true. And that doesn't even take into account the fact that even if the big bang started our universe, we wouldn't know anything about what caused the big bang itself. Which is where the post I've made two posts earlier comes in, that clearly went way over your head. You don't know what you are talking about and you refuse to go back, sit down and try to figure it out instead of just rephrasing the same false statement yet another time.

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October 19, 2017, 11:02:29 AM
 #8513

Problem is, you can call it many many different things, there is no value in calling it god just like there is no value in calling it an alien from another dimension or a computer program simulation, all of those would be perfectly legitimate too then but what's the point, we don't have sufficient evidence for any of them and we may never have, at least in our lifetimes. I recognize the possibility of a intelligent creator, there is no evidence that something like that could exist but because there is also no evidence it does I simply don't believe it. The problem I have is people who actually say they KNOW or they have PROVED god existence when it's simply not true. I'm not an atheist and I really don't like to label anyone with silly tags.
By your argument, you could also say that there is no value in calling it "Big Bang", "the universe", "everything" or "empty space". Which is just simply false. Depending on the circumstances you need to adapt your language to get a message across. You usually can't hope to speak Spanish to a Chinese person. Using different terminology for the same thing is no different.
And again, when it comes to "proof", it simply doesn't exist. You can not prove anything whatsoever. You can collect evidence, and it might be enough to get everyone to move on with their lives and to assume that they've figured something out. But in the end, no amount of evidence will ever be conclusive and thus will never constitute as an ultimate proof.
Anyone who claims to have proof of anything either uses the term loosely or doesn't know what they are talking about.

No, you totally misunderstood what I said just like badecker didn't even attempt to understand because he knows I'm right. The point is that big bang was a name given to something that was observed, all the evidence led to that assumption and the assumption was simply called big bang and it could have been called anything. God on the other hand is not like that, we didn't observe him, we don't have evidence for him. The point is that god is like ghost or like demon or any other imaginary creature you can find, we never observed them, we don't have evidence for them, their descriptions are made up, big bang's description is not made up, is backed up by science and evidence so even if it was called big poop it would still have the same qualities and description that are real. There is no point in saying the creator of the universe is god when we don't know what god is, I think that's pretty simple to understand. The logic is circular, you are saying the creator of the universe is god and then you are describing god as the creator of the universe, no information is gained from this, you might as well call it holly poop, what do I care? If we don't know what it really is, then there is no point.
The big bang is not something that was observed whatsoever... That statement makes the rest of your post largely irrelevant since it indicates that you don't even understand what the Big Bang really is about. And as far as misunderstandings go, it's obvious that you haven't gotten my point, since you're just rephrasing the same false statement that I've already addressed previously.
You're also putting words into my mouth that I've never said or implied.

No, the big bang has evidence that backs it up, god DOES NOT, neither have been observed, ton of things haven't been observed because it's impossible, the point again is that god is something made up and the big bang is not, whether you want to understand that or not it's up to you.
The big bang is made up. It's just one hypothetical concept that could possibly explain the creation of the universe. There are various competing hypothesis other than the big bang as well and nobody knows which one is actually true. And that doesn't even take into account the fact that even if the big bang started our universe, we wouldn't know anything about what caused the big bang itself. Which is where the post I've made two posts earlier comes in, that clearly went way over your head. You don't know what you are talking about and you refuse to go back, sit down and try to figure it out instead of just rephrasing the same false statement yet another time.

Let me say something first, I'm not claiming the big bang is exactly what happened but the big bang is not hypothetical is a theory (and you told me I don't know what I'm talking about, go figure lol) I'm not a big bang expert whatsoever nor I am a scientist but it is the most prevailing theory for the existence of the universe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Observational_evidence There is a lot of evidence to support it, again I'm not claiming it is exactly what happened and it is true that we don't know what happened before the big bang. My point again was simply that even If I agree with badecker that the universe needs a creator, we don't know what the creator is and we don't gain anything by saying it's god and describing god as the creator of the universe, there is no information gained from that, there is no observational evidence for god.



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October 19, 2017, 12:43:40 PM
 #8514

Problem is, you can call it many many different things, there is no value in calling it god just like there is no value in calling it an alien from another dimension or a computer program simulation, all of those would be perfectly legitimate too then but what's the point, we don't have sufficient evidence for any of them and we may never have, at least in our lifetimes. I recognize the possibility of a intelligent creator, there is no evidence that something like that could exist but because there is also no evidence it does I simply don't believe it. The problem I have is people who actually say they KNOW or they have PROVED god existence when it's simply not true. I'm not an atheist and I really don't like to label anyone with silly tags.
By your argument, you could also say that there is no value in calling it "Big Bang", "the universe", "everything" or "empty space". Which is just simply false. Depending on the circumstances you need to adapt your language to get a message across. You usually can't hope to speak Spanish to a Chinese person. Using different terminology for the same thing is no different.
And again, when it comes to "proof", it simply doesn't exist. You can not prove anything whatsoever. You can collect evidence, and it might be enough to get everyone to move on with their lives and to assume that they've figured something out. But in the end, no amount of evidence will ever be conclusive and thus will never constitute as an ultimate proof.
Anyone who claims to have proof of anything either uses the term loosely or doesn't know what they are talking about.

No, you totally misunderstood what I said just like badecker didn't even attempt to understand because he knows I'm right. The point is that big bang was a name given to something that was observed, all the evidence led to that assumption and the assumption was simply called big bang and it could have been called anything. God on the other hand is not like that, we didn't observe him, we don't have evidence for him. The point is that god is like ghost or like demon or any other imaginary creature you can find, we never observed them, we don't have evidence for them, their descriptions are made up, big bang's description is not made up, is backed up by science and evidence so even if it was called big poop it would still have the same qualities and description that are real. There is no point in saying the creator of the universe is god when we don't know what god is, I think that's pretty simple to understand. The logic is circular, you are saying the creator of the universe is god and then you are describing god as the creator of the universe, no information is gained from this, you might as well call it holly poop, what do I care? If we don't know what it really is, then there is no point.
The big bang is not something that was observed whatsoever... That statement makes the rest of your post largely irrelevant since it indicates that you don't even understand what the Big Bang really is about. And as far as misunderstandings go, it's obvious that you haven't gotten my point, since you're just rephrasing the same false statement that I've already addressed previously.
You're also putting words into my mouth that I've never said or implied.

No, the big bang has evidence that backs it up, god DOES NOT, neither have been observed, ton of things haven't been observed because it's impossible, the point again is that god is something made up and the big bang is not, whether you want to understand that or not it's up to you.
The big bang is made up. It's just one hypothetical concept that could possibly explain the creation of the universe. There are various competing hypothesis other than the big bang as well and nobody knows which one is actually true. And that doesn't even take into account the fact that even if the big bang started our universe, we wouldn't know anything about what caused the big bang itself. Which is where the post I've made two posts earlier comes in, that clearly went way over your head. You don't know what you are talking about and you refuse to go back, sit down and try to figure it out instead of just rephrasing the same false statement yet another time.

Let me say something first, I'm not claiming the big bang is exactly what happened but the big bang is not hypothetical is a theory (and you told me I don't know what I'm talking about, go figure lol) I'm not a big bang expert whatsoever nor I am a scientist but it is the most prevailing theory for the existence of the universe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Observational_evidence There is a lot of evidence to support it, again I'm not claiming it is exactly what happened and it is true that we don't know what happened before the big bang. My point again was simply that even If I agree with badecker that the universe needs a creator, we don't know what the creator is and we don't gain anything by saying it's god and describing god as the creator of the universe, there is no information gained from that, there is no observational evidence for god.

Look, I've repeatedly pointed out that I understand exactly where you're coming from and that you keep repeating it with different words. You can just keep saying the same stuff over and over, even though you know yourself that you're no scientist and thus don't really understand the details of the hypothesis of the big bang, or you can actually take some time to re-read my initial post attentively and actually try to get my point (which you currently clearly do not). The devil is in the details, and you've skimmed over my post so quickly that you've completely missed the point and based all of your further comments on your assumption of what you believe I've said.

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October 19, 2017, 01:18:21 PM
 #8515

Problem is, you can call it many many different things, there is no value in calling it god just like there is no value in calling it an alien from another dimension or a computer program simulation, all of those would be perfectly legitimate too then but what's the point, we don't have sufficient evidence for any of them and we may never have, at least in our lifetimes. I recognize the possibility of a intelligent creator, there is no evidence that something like that could exist but because there is also no evidence it does I simply don't believe it. The problem I have is people who actually say they KNOW or they have PROVED god existence when it's simply not true. I'm not an atheist and I really don't like to label anyone with silly tags.
By your argument, you could also say that there is no value in calling it "Big Bang", "the universe", "everything" or "empty space". Which is just simply false. Depending on the circumstances you need to adapt your language to get a message across. You usually can't hope to speak Spanish to a Chinese person. Using different terminology for the same thing is no different.
And again, when it comes to "proof", it simply doesn't exist. You can not prove anything whatsoever. You can collect evidence, and it might be enough to get everyone to move on with their lives and to assume that they've figured something out. But in the end, no amount of evidence will ever be conclusive and thus will never constitute as an ultimate proof.
Anyone who claims to have proof of anything either uses the term loosely or doesn't know what they are talking about.

No, you totally misunderstood what I said just like badecker didn't even attempt to understand because he knows I'm right. The point is that big bang was a name given to something that was observed, all the evidence led to that assumption and the assumption was simply called big bang and it could have been called anything. God on the other hand is not like that, we didn't observe him, we don't have evidence for him. The point is that god is like ghost or like demon or any other imaginary creature you can find, we never observed them, we don't have evidence for them, their descriptions are made up, big bang's description is not made up, is backed up by science and evidence so even if it was called big poop it would still have the same qualities and description that are real. There is no point in saying the creator of the universe is god when we don't know what god is, I think that's pretty simple to understand. The logic is circular, you are saying the creator of the universe is god and then you are describing god as the creator of the universe, no information is gained from this, you might as well call it holly poop, what do I care? If we don't know what it really is, then there is no point.
The big bang is not something that was observed whatsoever... That statement makes the rest of your post largely irrelevant since it indicates that you don't even understand what the Big Bang really is about. And as far as misunderstandings go, it's obvious that you haven't gotten my point, since you're just rephrasing the same false statement that I've already addressed previously.
You're also putting words into my mouth that I've never said or implied.

No, the big bang has evidence that backs it up, god DOES NOT, neither have been observed, ton of things haven't been observed because it's impossible, the point again is that god is something made up and the big bang is not, whether you want to understand that or not it's up to you.
The big bang is made up. It's just one hypothetical concept that could possibly explain the creation of the universe. There are various competing hypothesis other than the big bang as well and nobody knows which one is actually true. And that doesn't even take into account the fact that even if the big bang started our universe, we wouldn't know anything about what caused the big bang itself. Which is where the post I've made two posts earlier comes in, that clearly went way over your head. You don't know what you are talking about and you refuse to go back, sit down and try to figure it out instead of just rephrasing the same false statement yet another time.

Let me say something first, I'm not claiming the big bang is exactly what happened but the big bang is not hypothetical is a theory (and you told me I don't know what I'm talking about, go figure lol) I'm not a big bang expert whatsoever nor I am a scientist but it is the most prevailing theory for the existence of the universe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang#Observational_evidence There is a lot of evidence to support it, again I'm not claiming it is exactly what happened and it is true that we don't know what happened before the big bang. My point again was simply that even If I agree with badecker that the universe needs a creator, we don't know what the creator is and we don't gain anything by saying it's god and describing god as the creator of the universe, there is no information gained from that, there is no observational evidence for god.

Look, I've repeatedly pointed out that I understand exactly where you're coming from and that you keep repeating it with different words. You can just keep saying the same stuff over and over, even though you know yourself that you're no scientist and thus don't really understand the details of the hypothesis of the big bang, or you can actually take some time to re-read my initial post attentively and actually try to get my point (which you currently clearly do not). The devil is in the details, and you've skimmed over my post so quickly that you've completely missed the point and based all of your further comments on your assumption of what you believe I've said.

You can say it as many times as you want but the big bang is a scientific theory. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory)
Your first post was meaningless, ''And again, when it comes to "proof", it simply doesn't exist. You can not prove anything whatsoever. You can collect evidence'' So what? What if we can't prove anything 100% Science does as much as it can, that doesn't mean you should believe anything just because the other thing is not proved 100% either. That doesn't mean it's logical to believe god exists instead of the big bang simply because it wasn't proved to be 100% true. The big bang has evidence supporting it, god doesn't.

''By your argument, you could also say that there is no value in calling it "Big Bang", "the universe", "everything" or "empty space". Which is just simply false.''
No again, that is not my argument, my argument is that what we call the universe is something that we have described with observational evidence, like a glass, you observe the glass, you touch it, you measure it and then you define it (a hard, brittle, noncrystalline, more or less transparent substance produced by fusion, usually consisting of mutually dissolved silica and silicates that also contain soda and lime, as in the ordinary variety used for windows and bottles.)
Now the glass has value because its description is real. The description of god is made up, we haven't observed things and then concluded ok, all these things together point to this thing which we are going to call god, we can't observe god, we can't touch it, measure it, etc etc. Badecker is simply giving god the description of the creator of the universe and then saying that the creator of the universe is god because god is the creator of the universe.



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October 19, 2017, 02:44:23 PM
 #8516

The big bang has evidence supporting it

  what we call the universe is something that we have described with observational evidence,
Psychic powers have been described with observational evidence. Survival has evidence to support it.

The universe is based on consciousness, this means that philosophical materialism is incorrect.
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October 19, 2017, 02:52:55 PM
 #8517

Even the pope - the leader of the christian cult - now says evolution and the big bang is true.   Smiley
Darwin believed that "materialism is an irrational philosophy". Wallace believed in mediumship based on his own experiments.

https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/eminent_researchers#researchers_darwin
https://sites.google.com/site/chs4o8pt/eminent_researchers#researchers_wallace
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October 19, 2017, 03:08:30 PM
 #8518

The big bang has evidence supporting it

  what we call the universe is something that we have described with observational evidence,
Psychic powers have been described with observational evidence. Survival has evidence to support it.

The universe is based on consciousness, this means that philosophical materialism is incorrect.

You can claim they have but they haven't. We don't have a telekinesis theory as far as I know. If there was indeed observational evidence we would have discovered and studied long ago, we would have a ton of applications for it, we would have special schools teaching it, yet in real life there is nothing like that. Ghosts are also described with observational evidence (allegedly) do you believe in ghosts? Demons? Wake up to reality.



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October 19, 2017, 03:26:09 PM
 #8519

I don't think that there will ever be a scientific proof that God exists. With all due respect but no matter how many times those religions claim that their god exists, the only proof they have is their beliefs. I just really dont think that there really is a god if there is no scientific proof which seems to be very unlikely to happen.

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October 19, 2017, 05:48:18 PM
 #8520

The big bang has evidence supporting it

  what we call the universe is something that we have described with observational evidence,
Psychic powers have been described with observational evidence. Survival has evidence to support it.

The universe is based on consciousness, this means that philosophical materialism is incorrect.

You can claim they have but they haven't. We don't have a telekinesis theory as far as I know. If there was indeed observational evidence we would have discovered and studied long ago, we would have a ton of applications for it, we would have special schools teaching it, yet in real life there is nothing like that. Ghosts are also described with observational evidence (allegedly) do you believe in ghosts? Demons? Wake up to reality.
I provided the evidence,  you only provided your beliefs.
 Survival is a viable theory, same with Orch OR. Materialism is not viable. You did not explain the evidence using science or reason.
For those who are new to all of this:
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170215-the-strange-link-between-the-human-mind-and-quantum-physics
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