BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg

[dzimbeck]

And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.

Yea I can't wait to see the possibilities that pan out from these ideas ^^

And I love that you see the importance of creating a voting system so as not to send the coin down a dead end path like bitcoin and litecoin seem to be on.
It shouldn't be up to a handful of people to decide what new innovations should be incorporated into the coin.

This brings up another question:
The vote can be done by majority, but majority votes are hard to calculate. Here are the two ways I'm thinking of coding it would like to hear what you guys think:

The first way is to give the vote to the miner who wins the block. Since everyone has a fair chance of winning a block, this lets anyone who is staking make the decision. This way is provably fair since staking is fair. Its harder to game and you burn less funds. However, this might be less democratic if you consider the people with the most coins usually get the blocks. However, the people with the most coins have more at stake and perhaps the votes matter to them more anyways. ALSO this benefits users who have frozen coins and gives them this added benefit of being the bank.

The second way is based on a voting address. Basically you can cast votes in the client, send a small payment to a voting address. This might be a more democratic way to vote but it has the following challenge:
Anyone can create an address, so doing the vote by address can be gamed
also if you do the votes by simply counting them, then that encourages spam
So if this method is used, votes have to be measure by balance. The more money in the account the more weight the vote has. But this has some drawbacks, users dont always keep all their funds in one account so imagine voting from 10 of accounts just to change the interest rates
Also to prevent people from switching accounts, I would have to make the votes happen at an exact block otherwise people would vote twice(since they could move the money to another address).
This means to vote you have to be connected and miners will usually get the vote anyways. Also the most troublesome part of this is, miners would have to calculate everyones balance which means they would be running a full node. (Balance checking is not so easy unless you build an index which makes the blockchain take up tons of space)

So, I think voting can be done by miners. Its clean and simple and pretty democratic. And because i dont think we are going to change interest every block, we can probably have more than one miner vote. If we change interest twice per day, then we will get about 720 votes anyways for each interest rate change.

[healthhealer4]

And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.

Yea I can't wait to see the possibilities that pan out from these ideas ^^

And I love that you see the importance of creating a voting system so as not to send the coin down a dead end path like bitcoin and litecoin seem to be on.
It shouldn't be up to a handful of people to decide what new innovations should be incorporated into the coin.

This brings up another question:
The vote can be done by majority, but majority votes are hard to calculate. Here are the two ways I'm thinking of coding it would like to hear what you guys think:

The first way is to give the vote to the miner who wins the block. Since everyone has a fair chance of winning a block, this lets anyone who is staking make the decision. This way is provably fair since staking is fair. Its harder to game and you burn less funds. However, this might be less democratic if you consider the people with the most coins usually get the blocks. However, the people with the most coins have more at stake and perhaps the votes matter to them more anyways. ALSO this benefits users who have frozen coins and gives them this added benefit of being the bank.

The second way is based on a voting address. Basically you can cast votes in the client, send a small payment to a voting address. This might be a more democratic way to vote but it has the following challenge:
Anyone can create an address, so doing the vote by address can be gamed
also if you do the votes by simply counting them, then that encourages spam
So if this method is used, votes have to be measure by balance. The more money in the account the more weight the vote has. But this has some drawbacks, users dont always keep all their funds in one account so imagine voting from 10 of accounts just to change the interest rates
Also to prevent people from switching accounts, I would have to make the votes happen at an exact block otherwise people would vote twice(since they could move the money to another address).
This means to vote you have to be connected and miners will usually get the vote anyways. Also the most troublesome part of this is, miners would have to calculate everyones balance which means they would be running a full node. (Balance checking is not so easy unless you build an index which makes the blockchain take up tons of space)

So, I think voting can be done by miners. Its clean and simple and pretty democratic. And because i dont think we are going to change interest every block, we can probably have more than one miner vote. If we change interest twice per day, then we will get about 720 votes anyways for each interest rate change.

Yes , miners would be a good method to cast vote for consensus . Would voting twice a day be necessary ,maybe once a week will get a solid interest rate which would give good enough time to gather up volume.

So miners voting method would work like this ,you leave your client staking then it grants you or allows you to make a selected desired interest rate or would it be in increments of some value ?

[dzimbeck]

And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.

Yea I can't wait to see the possibilities that pan out from these ideas ^^

And I love that you see the importance of creating a voting system so as not to send the coin down a dead end path like bitcoin and litecoin seem to be on.
It shouldn't be up to a handful of people to decide what new innovations should be incorporated into the coin.

This brings up another question:
The vote can be done by majority, but majority votes are hard to calculate. Here are the two ways I'm thinking of coding it would like to hear what you guys think:

The first way is to give the vote to the miner who wins the block. Since everyone has a fair chance of winning a block, this lets anyone who is staking make the decision. This way is provably fair since staking is fair. Its harder to game and you burn less funds. However, this might be less democratic if you consider the people with the most coins usually get the blocks. However, the people with the most coins have more at stake and perhaps the votes matter to them more anyways. ALSO this benefits users who have frozen coins and gives them this added benefit of being the bank.

The second way is based on a voting address. Basically you can cast votes in the client, send a small payment to a voting address. This might be a more democratic way to vote but it has the following challenge:
Anyone can create an address, so doing the vote by address can be gamed
also if you do the votes by simply counting them, then that encourages spam
So if this method is used, votes have to be measure by balance. The more money in the account the more weight the vote has. But this has some drawbacks, users dont always keep all their funds in one account so imagine voting from 10 of accounts just to change the interest rates
Also to prevent people from switching accounts, I would have to make the votes happen at an exact block otherwise people would vote twice(since they could move the money to another address).
This means to vote you have to be connected and miners will usually get the vote anyways. Also the most troublesome part of this is, miners would have to calculate everyones balance which means they would be running a full node. (Balance checking is not so easy unless you build an index which makes the blockchain take up tons of space)

So, I think voting can be done by miners. Its clean and simple and pretty democratic. And because i dont think we are going to change interest every block, we can probably have more than one miner vote. If we change interest twice per day, then we will get about 720 votes anyways for each interest rate change.

Yes , miners would be a good method to cast vote for consensus . Would voting twice a day be necessary ,maybe once a week will get a solid interest rate which would give good enough time to gather up volume.

So miners voting method would work like this ,you leave your client staking then it grants you or allows you to make a selected desired interest rate or would it be in increments of some value ?

Basically yes, when you are staking you would be asked to cast a vote for inflation, deflation or no change in the wallet. No vote means no change. You can always change the vote later. When you are staking it will automatically cast your vote just by sending one of the outputs to the voting address. The only reason to change interest rates once per day would be so we can see results within a month or two. Since if we all choose to deflate first (which I assume we will) then it will take about 2 months to move the rate to 60% deflated or more. If we vote twice a day we can see that target sooner.

Also the question of how much should it be per day, should it be 1% or less?

I like the idea of an aggressive interest rate change because the markets are volatile and prices can swing pretty quickly so a faster interest rate would be able to absorb that. However, there is a question of when we can achieve stability and what that target price is.

I honestly doubt we can know the target price or the target amount of deflation because that is all going to depend on demand and what exchanges we get on.

So if for example, we change interest once per day. Miners find a block every minute more or less. So we should see about 1440 votes per day. Some miners would be voting more than once obviously which is fine since they win more blocks, so they deserve it.

I'm going to guess the price will really shoot up very high when we get to 90% deflation and more. But the market might surprise us and do it sooner. Then again, I can hold a special vote in my wallet for changing the interest rate potentially if its really needed. Those types of things will need to be decided eventually.

Also, its probably worth pointing out that the rate changes will probably not be compound. I'm thinking of making it a linear curve. So 1% for the first 50% then maybe .5% for the next 20% and so forth. But it might just be compound. Or I might have it be part of a parabolic equation that makes it move at 1% for a while and then as it approaches zero the rate of deflation slows down exponentially until it hits the maximum.

Because the system is fractional(not based on decimals or floating point numbers), I probably have to mark coins in billionths. Since you have at least 1 billion coins. Although I'm not sure I want to do that yet either. It really comes down to math and protocol.

As for time to gather volume, thats a good question. If we started at 100% inflated and just voted to deflate 1% per day, then how long will it take to see the volume spike? I'm going to guess that will happen as the people notice the price gradually rising. But maybe if it was slower it would also be better?! These are all really good questions. Again, I'm not sure anyone knows the best answer here. We are in complete NEW territory. This has never been done in the history of finance before. Although there are examples of countries doing market pegs... munti would know more about that than I would though.

[healthhealer4]

And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.

Yea I can't wait to see the possibilities that pan out from these ideas ^^

And I love that you see the importance of creating a voting system so as not to send the coin down a dead end path like bitcoin and litecoin seem to be on.
It shouldn't be up to a handful of people to decide what new innovations should be incorporated into the coin.

This brings up another question:
The vote can be done by majority, but majority votes are hard to calculate. Here are the two ways I'm thinking of coding it would like to hear what you guys think:

The first way is to give the vote to the miner who wins the block. Since everyone has a fair chance of winning a block, this lets anyone who is staking make the decision. This way is provably fair since staking is fair. Its harder to game and you burn less funds. However, this might be less democratic if you consider the people with the most coins usually get the blocks. However, the people with the most coins have more at stake and perhaps the votes matter to them more anyways. ALSO this benefits users who have frozen coins and gives them this added benefit of being the bank.

The second way is based on a voting address. Basically you can cast votes in the client, send a small payment to a voting address. This might be a more democratic way to vote but it has the following challenge:
Anyone can create an address, so doing the vote by address can be gamed
also if you do the votes by simply counting them, then that encourages spam
So if this method is used, votes have to be measure by balance. The more money in the account the more weight the vote has. But this has some drawbacks, users dont always keep all their funds in one account so imagine voting from 10 of accounts just to change the interest rates
Also to prevent people from switching accounts, I would have to make the votes happen at an exact block otherwise people would vote twice(since they could move the money to another address).
This means to vote you have to be connected and miners will usually get the vote anyways. Also the most troublesome part of this is, miners would have to calculate everyones balance which means they would be running a full node. (Balance checking is not so easy unless you build an index which makes the blockchain take up tons of space)

So, I think voting can be done by miners. Its clean and simple and pretty democratic. And because i dont think we are going to change interest every block, we can probably have more than one miner vote. If we change interest twice per day, then we will get about 720 votes anyways for each interest rate change.

Yes , miners would be a good method to cast vote for consensus . Would voting twice a day be necessary ,maybe once a week will get a solid interest rate which would give good enough time to gather up volume.

So miners voting method would work like this ,you leave your client staking then it grants you or allows you to make a selected desired interest rate or would it be in increments of some value ?

Basically yes, when you are staking you would be asked to cast a vote for inflation, deflation or no change in the wallet. No vote means no change. You can always change the vote later. When you are staking it will automatically cast your vote just by sending one of the outputs to the voting address. The only reason to change interest rates once per day would be so we can see results within a month or two. Since if we all choose to deflate first (which I assume we will) then it will take about 2 months to move the rate to 60% deflated or more. If we vote twice a day we can see that target sooner.

Also the question of how much should it be per day, should it be 1% or less?

I like the idea of an aggressive interest rate change because the markets are volatile and prices can swing pretty quickly so a faster interest rate would be able to absorb that. However, there is a question of when we can achieve stability and what that target price is.

I honestly doubt we can know the target price or the target amount of deflation because that is all going to depend on demand and what exchanges we get on.

So if for example, we change interest once per day. Miners find a block every minute more or less. So we should see about 1440 votes per day. Some miners would be voting more than once obviously which is fine since they win more blocks, so they deserve it.

I'm going to guess the price will really shoot up very high when we get to 90% deflation and more. But the market might surprise us and do it sooner. Then again, I can hold a special vote in my wallet for changing the interest rate potentially if its really needed. Those types of things will need to be decided eventually.

Also, its probably worth pointing out that the rate changes will probably not be compound. I'm thinking of making it a linear curve. So 1% for the first 50% then maybe .5% for the next 20% and so forth. But it might just be compound. Or I might have it be part of a parabolic equation that makes it move at 1% for a while and then as it approaches zero the rate of deflation slows down exponentially until it hits the maximum.

Because the system is fractional(not based on decimals or floating point numbers), I probably have to mark coins in billionths. Since you have at least 1 billion coins. Although I'm not sure I want to do that yet either. It really comes down to math and protocol.

As for time to gather volume, thats a good question. If we started at 100% inflated and just voted to deflate 1% per day, then how long will it take to see the volume spike? I'm going to guess that will happen as the people notice the price gradually rising. But maybe if it was slower it would also be better?! These are all really good questions. Again, I'm not sure anyone knows the best answer here. We are in complete NEW territory. This has never been done in the history of finance before. Although there are examples of countries doing market pegs... munti would know more about that than I would though.

Yeah very new territory for sure.

I had it in my head that when a miners is staking the client will automatically vote for the prefered interest change (inflation deflation or no change) the user selected by percentage starting at 1 percent everyday collecting data for 100 days ,so if someone wanted to deflat to 90 percent everyday till 90 days you will vote for deflation then the last 10 day no change. After all that data is collected by all the users the system will takes the highest deflation or inflation value and freezes that percentage of coins for 3 month and any new coins made from staking will also be frozen plus it would be cool to lower the staking to .01 percent to make things easer and inflation be less for the system.

Once the data is collect from the vote the system will check what the value is of bitbay in satoshi and maintain the increase percentage that was voted for, in this example 90 percent so the system will freeze and unfreeze coins to maintin that amount for three months.

Maybe just make it more simple what ever percentage the community votes on the system will just freeze that percentage from everyone cilent even the exchanges and that includes any new staked coins you get in your client for three months.

[3r197]

And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.

Yea I can't wait to see the possibilities that pan out from these ideas ^^

And I love that you see the importance of creating a voting system so as not to send the coin down a dead end path like bitcoin and litecoin seem to be on.
It shouldn't be up to a handful of people to decide what new innovations should be incorporated into the coin.

This brings up another question:
The vote can be done by majority, but majority votes are hard to calculate. Here are the two ways I'm thinking of coding it would like to hear what you guys think:

The first way is to give the vote to the miner who wins the block. Since everyone has a fair chance of winning a block, this lets anyone who is staking make the decision. This way is provably fair since staking is fair. Its harder to game and you burn less funds. However, this might be less democratic if you consider the people with the most coins usually get the blocks. However, the people with the most coins have more at stake and perhaps the votes matter to them more anyways. ALSO this benefits users who have frozen coins and gives them this added benefit of being the bank.

The second way is based on a voting address. Basically you can cast votes in the client, send a small payment to a voting address. This might be a more democratic way to vote but it has the following challenge:
Anyone can create an address, so doing the vote by address can be gamed
also if you do the votes by simply counting them, then that encourages spam
So if this method is used, votes have to be measure by balance. The more money in the account the more weight the vote has. But this has some drawbacks, users dont always keep all their funds in one account so imagine voting from 10 of accounts just to change the interest rates
Also to prevent people from switching accounts, I would have to make the votes happen at an exact block otherwise people would vote twice(since they could move the money to another address).
This means to vote you have to be connected and miners will usually get the vote anyways. Also the most troublesome part of this is, miners would have to calculate everyones balance which means they would be running a full node. (Balance checking is not so easy unless you build an index which makes the blockchain take up tons of space)

So, I think voting can be done by miners. Its clean and simple and pretty democratic. And because i dont think we are going to change interest every block, we can probably have more than one miner vote. If we change interest twice per day, then we will get about 720 votes anyways for each interest rate change.

Yes , miners would be a good method to cast vote for consensus . Would voting twice a day be necessary ,maybe once a week will get a solid interest rate which would give good enough time to gather up volume.

So miners voting method would work like this ,you leave your client staking then it grants you or allows you to make a selected desired interest rate or would it be in increments of some value ?

Basically yes, when you are staking you would be asked to cast a vote for inflation, deflation or no change in the wallet. No vote means no change. You can always change the vote later. When you are staking it will automatically cast your vote just by sending one of the outputs to the voting address. The only reason to change interest rates once per day would be so we can see results within a month or two. Since if we all choose to deflate first (which I assume we will) then it will take about 2 months to move the rate to 60% deflated or more. If we vote twice a day we can see that target sooner.

Also the question of how much should it be per day, should it be 1% or less?

I like the idea of an aggressive interest rate change because the markets are volatile and prices can swing pretty quickly so a faster interest rate would be able to absorb that. However, there is a question of when we can achieve stability and what that target price is.

I honestly doubt we can know the target price or the target amount of deflation because that is all going to depend on demand and what exchanges we get on.

So if for example, we change interest once per day. Miners find a block every minute more or less. So we should see about 1440 votes per day. Some miners would be voting more than once obviously which is fine since they win more blocks, so they deserve it.

I'm going to guess the price will really shoot up very high when we get to 90% deflation and more. But the market might surprise us and do it sooner. Then again, I can hold a special vote in my wallet for changing the interest rate potentially if its really needed. Those types of things will need to be decided eventually.

Also, its probably worth pointing out that the rate changes will probably not be compound. I'm thinking of making it a linear curve. So 1% for the first 50% then maybe .5% for the next 20% and so forth. But it might just be compound. Or I might have it be part of a parabolic equation that makes it move at 1% for a while and then as it approaches zero the rate of deflation slows down exponentially until it hits the maximum.

Because the system is fractional(not based on decimals or floating point numbers), I probably have to mark coins in billionths. Since you have at least 1 billion coins. Although I'm not sure I want to do that yet either. It really comes down to math and protocol.

As for time to gather volume, thats a good question. If we started at 100% inflated and just voted to deflate 1% per day, then how long will it take to see the volume spike? I'm going to guess that will happen as the people notice the price gradually rising. But maybe if it was slower it would also be better?! These are all really good questions. Again, I'm not sure anyone knows the best answer here. We are in complete NEW territory. This has never been done in the history of finance before. Although there are examples of countries doing market pegs... munti would know more about that than I would though.

Yeah very new territory for sure.

I had it in my head that when a miners is staking the client will automatically vote for the prefered interest change (inflation deflation or no change) the user selected by percentage starting at 1 percent everyday collecting data for 100 days ,so if someone wanted to deflat to 90 percent everyday till 90 days you will vote for deflation then the last 10 day no change. After all that data is collected by all the users the system will takes the highest deflation or inflation value and freezes that percentage of coins for 3 month and any new coins made from staking will also be frozen plus it would be cool to lower the staking to .01 percent to make things easer and inflation be less for the system.

Once the data is collect from the vote the system will check what the value is of bitbay in satoshi and maintain the increase percentage that was voted for, in this example 90 percent so the system will freeze and unfreeze coins to maintin that amount for three months.

Maybe just make it more simple what ever percentage the community votes on the system will just freeze that percentage from everyone cilent even the exchanges and that includes any new staked coins you get in your client for three months.

I like the ideas. Yet I have one other to throw out there. So yes I agree the miners should be the basis of the deciding factor as it give incentive for people to stake and support the blockchain. Yet as David's mentioned it's more geared for the heavily invested coin holders. I think we ought to give incentive to merchants as well to diversify. I'm sure the merchants will be using a lot of coins in DDE and thus won't have their true 'power of voice' over the investor miners. Yea, I'm sure the merchants will be staking whatever coins they have left over because they earn more coins, but it won't be the true potential they deserve. That being said I think their ought to be a multiplier effect based off a reputation system as well. It would help even the odds verses a group of individuals that are highly invested in the coin but don't use it for anything else. This gives the small 'fish' incentive to use the coin and gives their vote a much more even playing field.

[KoshaKosha]

Is it possible to integrate BitBay with this?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1316199.0;topicseen

[Munti]

Is it possible to integrate BitBay with this?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1316199.0;topicseen

I guess it's possible since we have CLTV, but the question is why?
We have been able to do the same thing with our smart contracts for a year already. Actually I think our smart contracts are superior. The solution you are linking to requires every participating coin to have CLTV. The BitBay client can be used to trade any coin safe and decentralized.

[Poloniex Matthew]

Glad you guys persist. But you owe us more transparency from here on. I'd like the full story. If only because it would make a good reading.

[Munti]

Glad you guys persist. But you owe us more transparency from here on. I'd like the full story. If only because it would make a good reading.

Thanks, BitBay is here to stay  

BitBay is transparent. The only thing we are not 100% transparent about is the pegging. That is partly because it's still in the workshop, and partly because we don't want to see it copied before we have released it ourself.

For the full story you can read this thread and the old thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=850267.0
If the good reading is the objective you might want to add https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=896480.0

The short version of it all goes like this:
BitBay made some very unfortunate choices as to whom to involve when it got started. The tech however is real. So is David's commitment to BitBay. We got rid of the unwanted people, and have formed a new team of dedicated people with a variety of talents.

Edit: I just noticed you are from Poloniex. How about you guys adding us to your exchange? Polo has been my favorite the last year. I would love to be able to trade BitBay there.

[illodin]

Glad you guys persist. But you owe us more transparency from here on. I'd like the full story. If only because it would make a good reading.

Edit: I just noticed you are from Poloniex. How about you guys adding us to your exchange? Polo has been my favorite the last year. I would love to be able to trade BitBay there.

He's not from Poloniex. He is a scammer who's copying other people's posts and making other zero content posts trying to build reputation so he can pull off scams.

Glad you guys persist. But you owe us more transparency from here on. I'd like the full story. If only because it would make a good reading.

[sidhujag]

Is it possible to integrate BitBay with this?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1316199.0;topicseen

I guess it's possible since we have CLTV, but the question is why?
We have been able to do the same thing with our smart contracts for a year already. Actually I think our smart contracts are superior. The solution you are linking to requires every participating coin to have CLTV. The BitBay client can be used to trade any coin safe and decentralized.

Smart contracts are really nothing to do with it, its about cross chain transfers to exchange the usage of services on one blockchain with the token value of another, or perhaps simply trading one token for another trustlessly.

[Munti]

Is it possible to integrate BitBay with this?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1316199.0;topicseen

I guess it's possible since we have CLTV, but the question is why?
We have been able to do the same thing with our smart contracts for a year already. Actually I think our smart contracts are superior. The solution you are linking to requires every participating coin to have CLTV. The BitBay client can be used to trade any coin safe and decentralized.

Smart contracts are really nothing to do with it, its about cross chain transfers to exchange the usage of services on one blockchain with the token value of another, or perhaps simply trading one token for another trustlessly.

True, but that was not my point. The point was that we can use smart contracts for decentralized exchange.

[dzimbeck]

Is it possible to integrate BitBay with this?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1316199.0;topicseen

I guess it's possible since we have CLTV, but the question is why?
We have been able to do the same thing with our smart contracts for a year already. Actually I think our smart contracts are superior. The solution you are linking to requires every participating coin to have CLTV. The BitBay client can be used to trade any coin safe and decentralized.

Smart contracts are really nothing to do with it, its about cross chain transfers to exchange the usage of services on one blockchain with the token value of another, or perhaps simply trading one token for another trustlessly.

What he was referring to was microtrading like how I've proposed to trade in NightTrader. The proposal is in Blackcoin to set a deposit and trade 1/2 the deposit of any two currencies until the coins are traded. The only drawback is speed and lots of transactions on the blockchain.

I guess its worth adding that when we fork for staking, we will have locktimes, so checklocktimeverify can be used to do AT

[spreadcoiner]

Is it possible to integrate BitBay with this?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1316199.0;topicseen

I guess it's possible since we have CLTV, but the question is why?
We have been able to do the same thing with our smart contracts for a year already. Actually I think our smart contracts are superior. The solution you are linking to requires every participating coin to have CLTV. The BitBay client can be used to trade any coin safe and decentralized.

Smart contracts are really nothing to do with it, its about cross chain transfers to exchange the usage of services on one blockchain with the token value of another, or perhaps simply trading one token for another trustlessly.

Would it be something like this, using sidechains:

(...)

http://oi63.tinypic.com/2s6lc3a.jpg

(...)

I'd also like to congratulate the works for BitBay! Do your best!

[pugman]

Everything seems to have slowed down? Whats happening next please. Will will see lagging to the dollar before winter?
Do we still have the ailibaba link?

Don't get me wrong I think David is a great Deb and very active!

[3r197]

Everything seems to have slowed down? Whats happening next please. Will will see lagging to the dollar before winter?
Do we still have the ailibaba link?

Don't get me wrong I think David is a great Deb and very active!

David mentioned recently all the core concepts should be complete by the end of the year.

Steven was the alibaba link and he's been absent from some time now.

[3r197]

And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.

Yea I can't wait to see the possibilities that pan out from these ideas ^^

And I love that you see the importance of creating a voting system so as not to send the coin down a dead end path like bitcoin and litecoin seem to be on.
It shouldn't be up to a handful of people to decide what new innovations should be incorporated into the coin.

This brings up another question:
The vote can be done by majority, but majority votes are hard to calculate. Here are the two ways I'm thinking of coding it would like to hear what you guys think:

The first way is to give the vote to the miner who wins the block. Since everyone has a fair chance of winning a block, this lets anyone who is staking make the decision. This way is provably fair since staking is fair. Its harder to game and you burn less funds. However, this might be less democratic if you consider the people with the most coins usually get the blocks. However, the people with the most coins have more at stake and perhaps the votes matter to them more anyways. ALSO this benefits users who have frozen coins and gives them this added benefit of being the bank.

The second way is based on a voting address. Basically you can cast votes in the client, send a small payment to a voting address. This might be a more democratic way to vote but it has the following challenge:
Anyone can create an address, so doing the vote by address can be gamed
also if you do the votes by simply counting them, then that encourages spam
So if this method is used, votes have to be measure by balance. The more money in the account the more weight the vote has. But this has some drawbacks, users dont always keep all their funds in one account so imagine voting from 10 of accounts just to change the interest rates
Also to prevent people from switching accounts, I would have to make the votes happen at an exact block otherwise people would vote twice(since they could move the money to another address).
This means to vote you have to be connected and miners will usually get the vote anyways. Also the most troublesome part of this is, miners would have to calculate everyones balance which means they would be running a full node. (Balance checking is not so easy unless you build an index which makes the blockchain take up tons of space)

So, I think voting can be done by miners. Its clean and simple and pretty democratic. And because i dont think we are going to change interest every block, we can probably have more than one miner vote. If we change interest twice per day, then we will get about 720 votes anyways for each interest rate change.

Yes , miners would be a good method to cast vote for consensus . Would voting twice a day be necessary ,maybe once a week will get a solid interest rate which would give good enough time to gather up volume.

So miners voting method would work like this ,you leave your client staking then it grants you or allows you to make a selected desired interest rate or would it be in increments of some value ?

Basically yes, when you are staking you would be asked to cast a vote for inflation, deflation or no change in the wallet. No vote means no change. You can always change the vote later. When you are staking it will automatically cast your vote just by sending one of the outputs to the voting address. The only reason to change interest rates once per day would be so we can see results within a month or two. Since if we all choose to deflate first (which I assume we will) then it will take about 2 months to move the rate to 60% deflated or more. If we vote twice a day we can see that target sooner.

Also the question of how much should it be per day, should it be 1% or less?

I like the idea of an aggressive interest rate change because the markets are volatile and prices can swing pretty quickly so a faster interest rate would be able to absorb that. However, there is a question of when we can achieve stability and what that target price is.

I honestly doubt we can know the target price or the target amount of deflation because that is all going to depend on demand and what exchanges we get on.

So if for example, we change interest once per day. Miners find a block every minute more or less. So we should see about 1440 votes per day. Some miners would be voting more than once obviously which is fine since they win more blocks, so they deserve it.

I'm going to guess the price will really shoot up very high when we get to 90% deflation and more. But the market might surprise us and do it sooner. Then again, I can hold a special vote in my wallet for changing the interest rate potentially if its really needed. Those types of things will need to be decided eventually.

Also, its probably worth pointing out that the rate changes will probably not be compound. I'm thinking of making it a linear curve. So 1% for the first 50% then maybe .5% for the next 20% and so forth. But it might just be compound. Or I might have it be part of a parabolic equation that makes it move at 1% for a while and then as it approaches zero the rate of deflation slows down exponentially until it hits the maximum.

Because the system is fractional(not based on decimals or floating point numbers), I probably have to mark coins in billionths. Since you have at least 1 billion coins. Although I'm not sure I want to do that yet either. It really comes down to math and protocol.

As for time to gather volume, thats a good question. If we started at 100% inflated and just voted to deflate 1% per day, then how long will it take to see the volume spike? I'm going to guess that will happen as the people notice the price gradually rising. But maybe if it was slower it would also be better?! These are all really good questions. Again, I'm not sure anyone knows the best answer here. We are in complete NEW territory. This has never been done in the history of finance before. Although there are examples of countries doing market pegs... munti would know more about that than I would though.

Yeah very new territory for sure.

I had it in my head that when a miners is staking the client will automatically vote for the prefered interest change (inflation deflation or no change) the user selected by percentage starting at 1 percent everyday collecting data for 100 days ,so if someone wanted to deflat to 90 percent everyday till 90 days you will vote for deflation then the last 10 day no change. After all that data is collected by all the users the system will takes the highest deflation or inflation value and freezes that percentage of coins for 3 month and any new coins made from staking will also be frozen plus it would be cool to lower the staking to .01 percent to make things easer and inflation be less for the system.

Once the data is collect from the vote the system will check what the value is of bitbay in satoshi and maintain the increase percentage that was voted for, in this example 90 percent so the system will freeze and unfreeze coins to maintin that amount for three months.

Maybe just make it more simple what ever percentage the community votes on the system will just freeze that percentage from everyone cilent even the exchanges and that includes any new staked coins you get in your client for three months.

I like the ideas. Yet I have one other to throw out there. So yes I agree the miners should be the basis of the deciding factor as it give incentive for people to stake and support the blockchain. Yet as David's mentioned it's more geared for the heavily invested coin holders. I think we ought to give incentive to merchants as well to diversify. I'm sure the merchants will be using a lot of coins in DDE and thus won't have their true 'power of voice' over the investor miners. Yea, I'm sure the merchants will be staking whatever coins they have left over because they earn more coins, but it won't be the true potential they deserve. That being said I think their ought to be a multiplier effect based off a reputation system as well. It would help even the odds verses a group of individuals that are highly invested in the coin but don't use it for anything else. This gives the small 'fish' incentive to use the coin and gives their vote a much more even playing field.

David, what were your thoughts ^^
I didn't know if you missed the post or not?

[ethought]

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[3r197]

Interesting ^^
I never knew that POS staking pools existed.

[healthhealer4]

Interesting ^^
I never knew that POS staking pools existed.

Yeah this is the second time i seen pos pool but first time for bitbay