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Author Topic: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg  (Read 503395 times)
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warper
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February 01, 2016, 09:52:53 AM
 #2281

What is the scale-ability of Bitbay and Blackcoin?? How many transactions can be handled per minute?

What happens to the dollar peg if the dollar hyper-inflates and the new global trade settlement standard becomes gold?? I expect this by 2020 and Probably a lot sooner. do you have time frame for when your are going to attempt a dollar peg?

The peg might not be hard set at a dollar...

Regarding pegs, I'd like to bring the following analysis on the subjet from the "nubits" experience. I jope it is useful for Bitbay:
Quote
...
Conclusion

In short, NuBits uses increases in its total supply (through various ways) and thus inflation as the only method to combat both an increasing and decreasing price. This might be able to hold for a while, but leaves nothing but a time bomb waiting to go off. The developers might have created NuBits with the best intentions, but until any adjustments have been made it is advised to avoid from this digital currency. A discussion on the discussed problem and possible improvements can be joined on the NuBits forum here.
source: Details and Shortcomings of NuBits
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February 01, 2016, 11:14:23 AM
 #2282

What is the scale-ability of Bitbay and Blackcoin?? How many transactions can be handled per minute?

What happens to the dollar peg if the dollar hyper-inflates and the new global trade settlement standard becomes gold?? I expect this by 2020 and Probably a lot sooner. do you have time frame for when your are going to attempt a dollar peg?

The peg might not be hard set at a dollar...

Regarding pegs, I'd like to bring the following analysis on the subjet from the "nubits" experience. I jope it is useful for Bitbay:
Quote
...
Conclusion

In short, NuBits uses increases in its total supply (through various ways) and thus inflation as the only method to combat both an increasing and decreasing price. This might be able to hold for a while, but leaves nothing but a time bomb waiting to go off. The developers might have created NuBits with the best intentions, but until any adjustments have been made it is advised to avoid from this digital currency. A discussion on the discussed problem and possible improvements can be joined on the NuBits forum here.
source: Details and Shortcomings of NuBits


Yeah I'm aware of this, however the pegging proposal here is a decentralized fractional system.

So coins are tagged as to how they freeze and unfreeze.

Example, lets say the deflation rate is 50%

And someone had coins that he never spent since it was 100% inflated (0% deflated)

Then he tries to spend.

Miners force him to send 50% back to himself tagged as frozen 100-50 which is basically his coins divisible in 50 parts.
Then the remainder he wants to send is now liquid 50-0 which is liquid coins set to deflate in at least 50 parts.

If the currency inflates again the user can spend some of his frozen coins.
Lets say it inflates 5%
Then he can unfreeze 5/50ths of his frozen coins and tag them a liquid divisible in 5 parts over 5 points.

Merchants will always require good quality coins and this is all going to be done under the hood.

Frozen coins can be transferred when totally frozen under one condition: That you put at least a 3 month time lock on it. At least im leaning towards a 3 month exemption but it should be in the range of 1-6 months.

This is superior to NuBits because its totally decentralized. There is no custodial addresses, there is no sustainability problem, there is no voluntary parking. Nubits suffers from major front running/inflation/centralization problems all of which are solved here.

This creates a series of asset classes based on how much liquidity your coins have. It also allows us to roll prices up and down by controlling the supply. AND it doesnt favor the rich, anyone who held coins that froze will benefit by having them released later.

And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.

Thats the core idea, I've been in discussions about how to make it user friendly which is the first priority. This is the basic core principals and we can build on it from there.

Deflation/Inflation per day will probably be 1-2% and might follow a sort of linear curve where that is more of a target rate. Although im still deciding over the minor details.

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February 01, 2016, 11:23:51 AM
 #2283

wow!

I'm glad to know this.

Thank you.

btw, I have installed the Bitbay market here. It looks great!
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February 01, 2016, 12:42:41 PM
 #2284

What is the scale-ability of Bitbay and Blackcoin?? How many transactions can be handled per minute?

What happens to the dollar peg if the dollar hyper-inflates and the new global trade settlement standard becomes gold?? I expect this by 2020 and Probably a lot sooner. do you have time frame for when your are going to attempt a dollar peg?

The peg might not be hard set at a dollar...

Regarding pegs, I'd like to bring the following analysis on the subjet from the "nubits" experience. I jope it is useful for Bitbay:
Quote
...
Conclusion

In short, NuBits uses increases in its total supply (through various ways) and thus inflation as the only method to combat both an increasing and decreasing price. This might be able to hold for a while, but leaves nothing but a time bomb waiting to go off. The developers might have created NuBits with the best intentions, but until any adjustments have been made it is advised to avoid from this digital currency. A discussion on the discussed problem and possible improvements can be joined on the NuBits forum here.
source: Details and Shortcomings of NuBits


Yeah I'm aware of this, however the pegging proposal here is a decentralized fractional system.

So coins are tagged as to how they freeze and unfreeze.

Example, lets say the deflation rate is 50%

And someone had coins that he never spent since it was 100% inflated (0% deflated)

Then he tries to spend.

Miners force him to send 50% back to himself tagged as frozen 100-50 which is basically his coins divisible in 50 parts.
Then the remainder he wants to send is now liquid 50-0 which is liquid coins set to deflate in at least 50 parts.

If the currency inflates again the user can spend some of his frozen coins.
Lets say it inflates 5%
Then he can unfreeze 5/50ths of his frozen coins and tag them a liquid divisible in 5 parts over 5 points.

Merchants will always require good quality coins and this is all going to be done under the hood.

Frozen coins can be transferred when totally frozen under one condition: That you put at least a 3 month time lock on it. At least im leaning towards a 3 month exemption but it should be in the range of 1-6 months.

This is superior to NuBits because its totally decentralized. There is no custodial addresses, there is no sustainability problem, there is no voluntary parking. Nubits suffers from major front running/inflation/centralization problems all of which are solved here.

This creates a series of asset classes based on how much liquidity your coins have. It also allows us to roll prices up and down by controlling the supply. AND it doesnt favor the rich, anyone who held coins that froze will benefit by having them released later.

And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.

Thats the core idea, I've been in discussions about how to make it user friendly which is the first priority. This is the basic core principals and we can build on it from there.

Deflation/Inflation per day will probably be 1-2% and might follow a sort of linear curve where that is more of a target rate. Although im still deciding over the minor details.



This seems like a pretty good way of doing it. Takes a lot to fully understand how it works tho, toke me a few reads and im still sure i didnt fully get it lol. The main thing is that it happens under the hood and the user does not need to worry about it. The best way is the trustless part, makes everything so much better. And yes, it has to be user friendly to gain mass adoption because that is the only real way to go, to reach out to people outside of cyrpto also.



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Diversify your
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illodin
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February 01, 2016, 02:25:04 PM
 #2285


it should be oxidian, however, I'm going to update that to my github shortly, ive got better source since oxidians source is missing files... the qt wallet was poorly done, thats why you cant build the daemon from it.

We might fork early for staking to move entirely to the markets wallet but i need to test the new staking commands first.

Thanks, the QT wallet built successfully on Ubuntu.
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February 01, 2016, 02:27:41 PM
 #2286

good to see the project is getting closer and closer to the start!!!! keep up the good work!
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February 01, 2016, 03:39:42 PM
 #2287

This is how I feel about BitBay....

http://i.imgur.com/0JQV1hA.jpg

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February 01, 2016, 06:37:02 PM
 #2288


good to see the project is getting closer and closer to the start!!!! keep up the good work!

And I've just made 18 bay from staking.
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February 01, 2016, 07:53:06 PM
 #2289

What is the scale-ability of Bitbay and Blackcoin?? How many transactions can be handled per minute?

What happens to the dollar peg if the dollar hyper-inflates and the new global trade settlement standard becomes gold?? I expect this by 2020 and Probably a lot sooner. do you have time frame for when your are going to attempt a dollar peg?

The peg might not be hard set at a dollar...

Regarding pegs, I'd like to bring the following analysis on the subjet from the "nubits" experience. I jope it is useful for Bitbay:
Quote
...
Conclusion

In short, NuBits uses increases in its total supply (through various ways) and thus inflation as the only method to combat both an increasing and decreasing price. This might be able to hold for a while, but leaves nothing but a time bomb waiting to go off. The developers might have created NuBits with the best intentions, but until any adjustments have been made it is advised to avoid from this digital currency. A discussion on the discussed problem and possible improvements can be joined on the NuBits forum here.
source: Details and Shortcomings of NuBits


Yeah I'm aware of this, however the pegging proposal here is a decentralized fractional system.

So coins are tagged as to how they freeze and unfreeze.

Example, lets say the deflation rate is 50%

And someone had coins that he never spent since it was 100% inflated (0% deflated)

Then he tries to spend.

Miners force him to send 50% back to himself tagged as frozen 100-50 which is basically his coins divisible in 50 parts.
Then the remainder he wants to send is now liquid 50-0 which is liquid coins set to deflate in at least 50 parts.

If the currency inflates again the user can spend some of his frozen coins.
Lets say it inflates 5%
Then he can unfreeze 5/50ths of his frozen coins and tag them a liquid divisible in 5 parts over 5 points.

Merchants will always require good quality coins and this is all going to be done under the hood.

Frozen coins can be transferred when totally frozen under one condition: That you put at least a 3 month time lock on it. At least im leaning towards a 3 month exemption but it should be in the range of 1-6 months.

This is superior to NuBits because its totally decentralized. There is no custodial addresses, there is no sustainability problem, there is no voluntary parking. Nubits suffers from major front running/inflation/centralization problems all of which are solved here.

This creates a series of asset classes based on how much liquidity your coins have. It also allows us to roll prices up and down by controlling the supply. AND it doesnt favor the rich, anyone who held coins that froze will benefit by having them released later.

And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.

Thats the core idea, I've been in discussions about how to make it user friendly which is the first priority. This is the basic core principals and we can build on it from there.

Deflation/Inflation per day will probably be 1-2% and might follow a sort of linear curve where that is more of a target rate. Although im still deciding over the minor details.



This seems like a pretty good way of doing it. Takes a lot to fully understand how it works tho, toke me a few reads and im still sure i didnt fully get it lol. The main thing is that it happens under the hood and the user does not need to worry about it. The best way is the trustless part, makes everything so much better. And yes, it has to be user friendly to gain mass adoption because that is the only real way to go, to reach out to people outside of cyrpto also.


Well, I'm going to try and make as much under the hood as possible. Because understanding the technical details requires a high level knowledge of what Bitcoin actually is. I'm not sure if I should explain that here or just save it for people to read somewhere else for the ones who are really curious. There is a few challenges in helping users understand it. There is a question of what basic users need to know. Should they know that different coins freeze at different speeds? Perhaps if they request it in the client, sure but it will not be immediately visible. Minimum liquidity requirements for sending can prevent them from noticing that their coins freeze slightly faster or slightly slower depending on which ones they received. I could explain much more technical details here but perhaps it would be too much. hahaha

At a minimum, they need to know their funds freeze and unfreeze. The end goal is to make that the only new concept for basic users to understand.
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February 02, 2016, 04:05:38 AM
 #2290

My old hard drive got corrupted. I was running the the market less wallet. I have just downloaded the wallet again but its not starting to sync any help in this regard would be great.
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February 02, 2016, 05:47:06 AM
 #2291

My old hard drive got corrupted. I was running the the market less wallet. I have just downloaded the wallet again but its not starting to sync any help in this regard would be great.

I responded to your PM and also gave you a troubleshooting step for this Wink
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February 02, 2016, 11:55:03 PM
 #2292


And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.


Yea I can't wait to see the possibilities that pan out from these ideas ^^

And I love that you see the importance of creating a voting system so as not to send the coin down a dead end path like bitcoin and litecoin seem to be on.
It shouldn't be up to a handful of people to decide what new innovations should be incorporated into the coin.
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February 03, 2016, 05:17:30 AM
 #2293

My old hard drive got corrupted. I was running the the market less wallet. I have just downloaded the wallet again but its not starting to sync any help in this regard would be great.

I responded to your PM and also gave you a troubleshooting step for this Wink

thanks the matter was solved.
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February 03, 2016, 08:16:46 AM
 #2294


And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.


Yea I can't wait to see the possibilities that pan out from these ideas ^^

And I love that you see the importance of creating a voting system so as not to send the coin down a dead end path like bitcoin and litecoin seem to be on.
It shouldn't be up to a handful of people to decide what new innovations should be incorporated into the coin.


This brings up another question:
The vote can be done by majority, but majority votes are hard to calculate. Here are the two ways I'm thinking of coding it would like to hear what you guys think:

The first way is to give the vote to the miner who wins the block. Since everyone has a fair chance of winning a block, this lets anyone who is staking make the decision. This way is provably fair since staking is fair. Its harder to game and you burn less funds. However, this might be less democratic if you consider the people with the most coins usually get the blocks. However, the people with the most coins have more at stake and perhaps the votes matter to them more anyways. ALSO this benefits users who have frozen coins and gives them this added benefit of being the bank.

The second way is based on a voting address. Basically you can cast votes in the client, send a small payment to a voting address. This might be a more democratic way to vote but it has the following challenge:
Anyone can create an address, so doing the vote by address can be gamed
also if you do the votes by simply counting them, then that encourages spam
So if this method is used, votes have to be measure by balance. The more money in the account the more weight the vote has. But this has some drawbacks, users dont always keep all their funds in one account so imagine voting from 10 of accounts just to change the interest rates
Also to prevent people from switching accounts, I would have to make the votes happen at an exact block otherwise people would vote twice(since they could move the money to another address).
This means to vote you have to be connected and miners will usually get the vote anyways. Also the most troublesome part of this is, miners would have to calculate everyones balance which means they would be running a full node. (Balance checking is not so easy unless you build an index which makes the blockchain take up tons of space)

So, I think voting can be done by miners. Its clean and simple and pretty democratic. And because i dont think we are going to change interest every block, we can probably have more than one miner vote. If we change interest twice per day, then we will get about 720 votes anyways for each interest rate change.
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February 03, 2016, 09:29:53 AM
 #2295


And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.


Yea I can't wait to see the possibilities that pan out from these ideas ^^

And I love that you see the importance of creating a voting system so as not to send the coin down a dead end path like bitcoin and litecoin seem to be on.
It shouldn't be up to a handful of people to decide what new innovations should be incorporated into the coin.


This brings up another question:
The vote can be done by majority, but majority votes are hard to calculate. Here are the two ways I'm thinking of coding it would like to hear what you guys think:

The first way is to give the vote to the miner who wins the block. Since everyone has a fair chance of winning a block, this lets anyone who is staking make the decision. This way is provably fair since staking is fair. Its harder to game and you burn less funds. However, this might be less democratic if you consider the people with the most coins usually get the blocks. However, the people with the most coins have more at stake and perhaps the votes matter to them more anyways. ALSO this benefits users who have frozen coins and gives them this added benefit of being the bank.

The second way is based on a voting address. Basically you can cast votes in the client, send a small payment to a voting address. This might be a more democratic way to vote but it has the following challenge:
Anyone can create an address, so doing the vote by address can be gamed
also if you do the votes by simply counting them, then that encourages spam
So if this method is used, votes have to be measure by balance. The more money in the account the more weight the vote has. But this has some drawbacks, users dont always keep all their funds in one account so imagine voting from 10 of accounts just to change the interest rates
Also to prevent people from switching accounts, I would have to make the votes happen at an exact block otherwise people would vote twice(since they could move the money to another address).
This means to vote you have to be connected and miners will usually get the vote anyways. Also the most troublesome part of this is, miners would have to calculate everyones balance which means they would be running a full node. (Balance checking is not so easy unless you build an index which makes the blockchain take up tons of space)

So, I think voting can be done by miners. Its clean and simple and pretty democratic. And because i dont think we are going to change interest every block, we can probably have more than one miner vote. If we change interest twice per day, then we will get about 720 votes anyways for each interest rate change.

Yes , miners would be a good method to cast vote for consensus . Would voting twice a day be necessary ,maybe once a week will get a solid interest rate which would give good enough time to gather up volume.

So miners voting method would work like this ,you leave your client staking then it grants you or allows you to make a selected desired interest rate or would it be in increments of some value ?
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February 03, 2016, 10:49:25 AM
 #2296


And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.


Yea I can't wait to see the possibilities that pan out from these ideas ^^

And I love that you see the importance of creating a voting system so as not to send the coin down a dead end path like bitcoin and litecoin seem to be on.
It shouldn't be up to a handful of people to decide what new innovations should be incorporated into the coin.


This brings up another question:
The vote can be done by majority, but majority votes are hard to calculate. Here are the two ways I'm thinking of coding it would like to hear what you guys think:

The first way is to give the vote to the miner who wins the block. Since everyone has a fair chance of winning a block, this lets anyone who is staking make the decision. This way is provably fair since staking is fair. Its harder to game and you burn less funds. However, this might be less democratic if you consider the people with the most coins usually get the blocks. However, the people with the most coins have more at stake and perhaps the votes matter to them more anyways. ALSO this benefits users who have frozen coins and gives them this added benefit of being the bank.

The second way is based on a voting address. Basically you can cast votes in the client, send a small payment to a voting address. This might be a more democratic way to vote but it has the following challenge:
Anyone can create an address, so doing the vote by address can be gamed
also if you do the votes by simply counting them, then that encourages spam
So if this method is used, votes have to be measure by balance. The more money in the account the more weight the vote has. But this has some drawbacks, users dont always keep all their funds in one account so imagine voting from 10 of accounts just to change the interest rates
Also to prevent people from switching accounts, I would have to make the votes happen at an exact block otherwise people would vote twice(since they could move the money to another address).
This means to vote you have to be connected and miners will usually get the vote anyways. Also the most troublesome part of this is, miners would have to calculate everyones balance which means they would be running a full node. (Balance checking is not so easy unless you build an index which makes the blockchain take up tons of space)

So, I think voting can be done by miners. Its clean and simple and pretty democratic. And because i dont think we are going to change interest every block, we can probably have more than one miner vote. If we change interest twice per day, then we will get about 720 votes anyways for each interest rate change.

Yes , miners would be a good method to cast vote for consensus . Would voting twice a day be necessary ,maybe once a week will get a solid interest rate which would give good enough time to gather up volume.

So miners voting method would work like this ,you leave your client staking then it grants you or allows you to make a selected desired interest rate or would it be in increments of some value ?

Basically yes, when you are staking you would be asked to cast a vote for inflation, deflation or no change in the wallet. No vote means no change. You can always change the vote later. When you are staking it will automatically cast your vote just by sending one of the outputs to the voting address. The only reason to change interest rates once per day would be so we can see results within a month or two. Since if we all choose to deflate first (which I assume we will) then it will take about 2 months to move the rate to 60% deflated or more. If we vote twice a day we can see that target sooner.

Also the question of how much should it be per day, should it be 1% or less?

I like the idea of an aggressive interest rate change because the markets are volatile and prices can swing pretty quickly so a faster interest rate would be able to absorb that. However, there is a question of when we can achieve stability and what that target price is.

I honestly doubt we can know the target price or the target amount of deflation because that is all going to depend on demand and what exchanges we get on.

So if for example, we change interest once per day. Miners find a block every minute more or less. So we should see about 1440 votes per day. Some miners would be voting more than once obviously which is fine since they win more blocks, so they deserve it.

I'm going to guess the price will really shoot up very high when we get to 90% deflation and more. But the market might surprise us and do it sooner. Then again, I can hold a special vote in my wallet for changing the interest rate potentially if its really needed. Those types of things will need to be decided eventually.

Also, its probably worth pointing out that the rate changes will probably not be compound. I'm thinking of making it a linear curve. So 1% for the first 50% then maybe .5% for the next 20% and so forth. But it might just be compound. Or I might have it be part of a parabolic equation that makes it move at 1% for a while and then as it approaches zero the rate of deflation slows down exponentially until it hits the maximum.

Because the system is fractional(not based on decimals or floating point numbers), I probably have to mark coins in billionths. Since you have at least 1 billion coins. Although I'm not sure I want to do that yet either. It really comes down to math and protocol.

As for time to gather volume, thats a good question. If we started at 100% inflated and just voted to deflate 1% per day, then how long will it take to see the volume spike? I'm going to guess that will happen as the people notice the price gradually rising. But maybe if it was slower it would also be better?! These are all really good questions. Again, I'm not sure anyone knows the best answer here. We are in complete NEW territory. This has never been done in the history of finance before. Although there are examples of countries doing market pegs... munti would know more about that than I would though.
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February 03, 2016, 12:30:15 PM
Last edit: February 03, 2016, 12:41:18 PM by healthhealer4
 #2297


And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.


Yea I can't wait to see the possibilities that pan out from these ideas ^^

And I love that you see the importance of creating a voting system so as not to send the coin down a dead end path like bitcoin and litecoin seem to be on.
It shouldn't be up to a handful of people to decide what new innovations should be incorporated into the coin.


This brings up another question:
The vote can be done by majority, but majority votes are hard to calculate. Here are the two ways I'm thinking of coding it would like to hear what you guys think:

The first way is to give the vote to the miner who wins the block. Since everyone has a fair chance of winning a block, this lets anyone who is staking make the decision. This way is provably fair since staking is fair. Its harder to game and you burn less funds. However, this might be less democratic if you consider the people with the most coins usually get the blocks. However, the people with the most coins have more at stake and perhaps the votes matter to them more anyways. ALSO this benefits users who have frozen coins and gives them this added benefit of being the bank.

The second way is based on a voting address. Basically you can cast votes in the client, send a small payment to a voting address. This might be a more democratic way to vote but it has the following challenge:
Anyone can create an address, so doing the vote by address can be gamed
also if you do the votes by simply counting them, then that encourages spam
So if this method is used, votes have to be measure by balance. The more money in the account the more weight the vote has. But this has some drawbacks, users dont always keep all their funds in one account so imagine voting from 10 of accounts just to change the interest rates
Also to prevent people from switching accounts, I would have to make the votes happen at an exact block otherwise people would vote twice(since they could move the money to another address).
This means to vote you have to be connected and miners will usually get the vote anyways. Also the most troublesome part of this is, miners would have to calculate everyones balance which means they would be running a full node. (Balance checking is not so easy unless you build an index which makes the blockchain take up tons of space)

So, I think voting can be done by miners. Its clean and simple and pretty democratic. And because i dont think we are going to change interest every block, we can probably have more than one miner vote. If we change interest twice per day, then we will get about 720 votes anyways for each interest rate change.

Yes , miners would be a good method to cast vote for consensus . Would voting twice a day be necessary ,maybe once a week will get a solid interest rate which would give good enough time to gather up volume.

So miners voting method would work like this ,you leave your client staking then it grants you or allows you to make a selected desired interest rate or would it be in increments of some value ?

Basically yes, when you are staking you would be asked to cast a vote for inflation, deflation or no change in the wallet. No vote means no change. You can always change the vote later. When you are staking it will automatically cast your vote just by sending one of the outputs to the voting address. The only reason to change interest rates once per day would be so we can see results within a month or two. Since if we all choose to deflate first (which I assume we will) then it will take about 2 months to move the rate to 60% deflated or more. If we vote twice a day we can see that target sooner.

Also the question of how much should it be per day, should it be 1% or less?

I like the idea of an aggressive interest rate change because the markets are volatile and prices can swing pretty quickly so a faster interest rate would be able to absorb that. However, there is a question of when we can achieve stability and what that target price is.

I honestly doubt we can know the target price or the target amount of deflation because that is all going to depend on demand and what exchanges we get on.

So if for example, we change interest once per day. Miners find a block every minute more or less. So we should see about 1440 votes per day. Some miners would be voting more than once obviously which is fine since they win more blocks, so they deserve it.

I'm going to guess the price will really shoot up very high when we get to 90% deflation and more. But the market might surprise us and do it sooner. Then again, I can hold a special vote in my wallet for changing the interest rate potentially if its really needed. Those types of things will need to be decided eventually.

Also, its probably worth pointing out that the rate changes will probably not be compound. I'm thinking of making it a linear curve. So 1% for the first 50% then maybe .5% for the next 20% and so forth. But it might just be compound. Or I might have it be part of a parabolic equation that makes it move at 1% for a while and then as it approaches zero the rate of deflation slows down exponentially until it hits the maximum.

Because the system is fractional(not based on decimals or floating point numbers), I probably have to mark coins in billionths. Since you have at least 1 billion coins. Although I'm not sure I want to do that yet either. It really comes down to math and protocol.

As for time to gather volume, thats a good question. If we started at 100% inflated and just voted to deflate 1% per day, then how long will it take to see the volume spike? I'm going to guess that will happen as the people notice the price gradually rising. But maybe if it was slower it would also be better?! These are all really good questions. Again, I'm not sure anyone knows the best answer here. We are in complete NEW territory. This has never been done in the history of finance before. Although there are examples of countries doing market pegs... munti would know more about that than I would though.

Yeah very new territory for sure.

I had it in my head that when a miners is staking the client will automatically vote for the prefered interest change (inflation deflation or no change) the user selected by percentage starting at 1 percent everyday collecting data for 100 days ,so if someone wanted to deflat to 90 percent everyday till 90 days you will vote for deflation then the last 10 day no change. After all that data is collected by all the users the system will takes the highest deflation or inflation value and freezes that percentage of coins for 3 month and any new coins made from staking will also be frozen plus it would be cool to lower the staking to .01 percent to make things easer and inflation be less for the system.

Once the data is collect from the vote the system will check what the value is of bitbay in satoshi and maintain the increase percentage that was voted for, in this example 90 percent so the system will freeze and unfreeze coins to maintin that amount for three months.

Maybe just make it more simple what ever percentage the community votes on the system will just freeze that percentage from everyone cilent even the exchanges and that includes any new staked coins you get in your client for three months.
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February 03, 2016, 01:01:17 PM
 #2298


And also it creates some really interesting possibilities for transfers of liquidity for frozen coins. Similar to loans, trustless bonds and futures, etc.


Yea I can't wait to see the possibilities that pan out from these ideas ^^

And I love that you see the importance of creating a voting system so as not to send the coin down a dead end path like bitcoin and litecoin seem to be on.
It shouldn't be up to a handful of people to decide what new innovations should be incorporated into the coin.


This brings up another question:
The vote can be done by majority, but majority votes are hard to calculate. Here are the two ways I'm thinking of coding it would like to hear what you guys think:

The first way is to give the vote to the miner who wins the block. Since everyone has a fair chance of winning a block, this lets anyone who is staking make the decision. This way is provably fair since staking is fair. Its harder to game and you burn less funds. However, this might be less democratic if you consider the people with the most coins usually get the blocks. However, the people with the most coins have more at stake and perhaps the votes matter to them more anyways. ALSO this benefits users who have frozen coins and gives them this added benefit of being the bank.

The second way is based on a voting address. Basically you can cast votes in the client, send a small payment to a voting address. This might be a more democratic way to vote but it has the following challenge:
Anyone can create an address, so doing the vote by address can be gamed
also if you do the votes by simply counting them, then that encourages spam
So if this method is used, votes have to be measure by balance. The more money in the account the more weight the vote has. But this has some drawbacks, users dont always keep all their funds in one account so imagine voting from 10 of accounts just to change the interest rates
Also to prevent people from switching accounts, I would have to make the votes happen at an exact block otherwise people would vote twice(since they could move the money to another address).
This means to vote you have to be connected and miners will usually get the vote anyways. Also the most troublesome part of this is, miners would have to calculate everyones balance which means they would be running a full node. (Balance checking is not so easy unless you build an index which makes the blockchain take up tons of space)

So, I think voting can be done by miners. Its clean and simple and pretty democratic. And because i dont think we are going to change interest every block, we can probably have more than one miner vote. If we change interest twice per day, then we will get about 720 votes anyways for each interest rate change.

Yes , miners would be a good method to cast vote for consensus . Would voting twice a day be necessary ,maybe once a week will get a solid interest rate which would give good enough time to gather up volume.

So miners voting method would work like this ,you leave your client staking then it grants you or allows you to make a selected desired interest rate or would it be in increments of some value ?

Basically yes, when you are staking you would be asked to cast a vote for inflation, deflation or no change in the wallet. No vote means no change. You can always change the vote later. When you are staking it will automatically cast your vote just by sending one of the outputs to the voting address. The only reason to change interest rates once per day would be so we can see results within a month or two. Since if we all choose to deflate first (which I assume we will) then it will take about 2 months to move the rate to 60% deflated or more. If we vote twice a day we can see that target sooner.

Also the question of how much should it be per day, should it be 1% or less?

I like the idea of an aggressive interest rate change because the markets are volatile and prices can swing pretty quickly so a faster interest rate would be able to absorb that. However, there is a question of when we can achieve stability and what that target price is.

I honestly doubt we can know the target price or the target amount of deflation because that is all going to depend on demand and what exchanges we get on.

So if for example, we change interest once per day. Miners find a block every minute more or less. So we should see about 1440 votes per day. Some miners would be voting more than once obviously which is fine since they win more blocks, so they deserve it.

I'm going to guess the price will really shoot up very high when we get to 90% deflation and more. But the market might surprise us and do it sooner. Then again, I can hold a special vote in my wallet for changing the interest rate potentially if its really needed. Those types of things will need to be decided eventually.

Also, its probably worth pointing out that the rate changes will probably not be compound. I'm thinking of making it a linear curve. So 1% for the first 50% then maybe .5% for the next 20% and so forth. But it might just be compound. Or I might have it be part of a parabolic equation that makes it move at 1% for a while and then as it approaches zero the rate of deflation slows down exponentially until it hits the maximum.

Because the system is fractional(not based on decimals or floating point numbers), I probably have to mark coins in billionths. Since you have at least 1 billion coins. Although I'm not sure I want to do that yet either. It really comes down to math and protocol.

As for time to gather volume, thats a good question. If we started at 100% inflated and just voted to deflate 1% per day, then how long will it take to see the volume spike? I'm going to guess that will happen as the people notice the price gradually rising. But maybe if it was slower it would also be better?! These are all really good questions. Again, I'm not sure anyone knows the best answer here. We are in complete NEW territory. This has never been done in the history of finance before. Although there are examples of countries doing market pegs... munti would know more about that than I would though.

Yeah very new territory for sure.

I had it in my head that when a miners is staking the client will automatically vote for the prefered interest change (inflation deflation or no change) the user selected by percentage starting at 1 percent everyday collecting data for 100 days ,so if someone wanted to deflat to 90 percent everyday till 90 days you will vote for deflation then the last 10 day no change. After all that data is collected by all the users the system will takes the highest deflation or inflation value and freezes that percentage of coins for 3 month and any new coins made from staking will also be frozen plus it would be cool to lower the staking to .01 percent to make things easer and inflation be less for the system.

Once the data is collect from the vote the system will check what the value is of bitbay in satoshi and maintain the increase percentage that was voted for, in this example 90 percent so the system will freeze and unfreeze coins to maintin that amount for three months.

Maybe just make it more simple what ever percentage the community votes on the system will just freeze that percentage from everyone cilent even the exchanges and that includes any new staked coins you get in your client for three months.

I like the ideas. Yet I have one other to throw out there. So yes I agree the miners should be the basis of the deciding factor as it give incentive for people to stake and support the blockchain. Yet as David's mentioned it's more geared for the heavily invested coin holders. I think we ought to give incentive to merchants as well to diversify. I'm sure the merchants will be using a lot of coins in DDE and thus won't have their true 'power of voice' over the investor miners. Yea, I'm sure the merchants will be staking whatever coins they have left over because they earn more coins, but it won't be the true potential they deserve. That being said I think their ought to be a multiplier effect based off a reputation system as well. It would help even the odds verses a group of individuals that are highly invested in the coin but don't use it for anything else. This gives the small 'fish' incentive to use the coin and gives their vote a much more even playing field.
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February 03, 2016, 02:44:36 PM
 #2299

Is it possible to integrate BitBay with this?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1316199.0;topicseen
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February 03, 2016, 04:46:53 PM
 #2300

Is it possible to integrate BitBay with this?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1316199.0;topicseen

I guess it's possible since we have CLTV, but the question is why?
We have been able to do the same thing with our smart contracts for a year already. Actually I think our smart contracts are superior. The solution you are linking to requires every participating coin to have CLTV. The BitBay client can be used to trade any coin safe and decentralized.
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