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Author Topic: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network  (Read 239188 times)
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February 10, 2015, 03:29:00 PM
 #21

You guys, gonna use some kind of POW to secure the network? Which will be the algo?

Thanks.

The answer seems affirmative, since we do need timestamping. We still design the fine details

Did you consider the CryptoNight algo? I think right now is the fairest algo around, it is designed to make CPU and GPU mining roughly equally efficient and restrict ASIC mining.

Thanks.

Well see on Zennet's thread why ASICs might be good here: we want the computers to do real useful work on such systems.

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February 10, 2015, 04:11:45 PM
 #22

I agree that the article should be much more explained. Your points help me to recognize where I need to put more emphasis.

The mathematico-logical background needs expanding some and needs to be a bit more coherent about the solidity it confers to the principles of what you're aiming to do with rules.

The section on RDF is a bit loose but that may be just a linguistic challenge (you describe the components of a triple/quad as “words”, which they certainly aren't).

As for the various references to ontology/ontologies, I can't help but think we're working to two entirely different definitions because, try as I might, I just can't seem to build an understanding that leads me to the same conclusions as you. I'm tempted wave my hands vigorously and refer you to the extensive body of research into just how mind-numbingly difficult it is to combine or even cross-correlate ontologies but that would be mischievous now that you've accepted my critique Smiley I'll limit myself to suggesting that you double-check your assumptions about the feasibility of freely combining user-developed ontologies because my understanding is that the field remains very much at the research stage.

I'm passingly familiar with EulerGUI and I'm somewhat surprised at your choice (as opposed to Protege, by contrast). It is (unfortunately) ill-resourced and has fallen behind the curve. I note that they claim to support FuXi, which is going back about five years now.

Chime has no current plan to take Fuxi forward and so it is now sadly confined to either the ‘layercake’ frozen Python 2.6/RDFLib 2.4.1 package or my now-obsolete port for use with RDFLib>=3 (pre SPARQL 1.1). FuXi doesn't work with gromgull's SPARQL 1.1 implementation and isn't likely to without a major refactoring that Chime has no intention of doing, aiui. So, for any forward-looking project, FuXI isn't really a viable option.

I won't comment on cwm's functionality. aiui, it remains timbl's personal code sandpit and I'm not even sure it's officially maintained. I believe it's not compatible with Python 3 which is not necessarily a show-stopper in itself but that must blight its candidacy as underpinning reasoning technology for any ambitious new project, just in terms of executing in anything less than a geological timescale.

I severely doubt that everyday users will be comfortable using Attempto --- I'm fairly sure that successful use requires users to undergo a significant amount of training. You're correct in that it's the only game in town but whilst that might be adequate for research purposes, I question whether it's suitable for imminent deployment - if you can't find at least a handful of successful real-world deployments, I suggest your reconsider the whole NL aspects of the tauchain project with an emphasis on checking what's currently actually feasible and not just researchers' fond imaginings.

On the NL side, I did explore Quepy's NL features in relation to a semweb project that I'm currently pursuing. The project's domain of discourse is the re-presentation of transparency information otherwise ineptly published by the UK Parliament (c.f. owl-o-parl.org) and the Quepy exploration was oriented thus.

I published a write-up of my Quepy investigation which I shall hesitantly recommend to other readers of this thread in that they might find it accessible and gain some illumination on RDF, etc.

Cheers

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February 10, 2015, 04:27:39 PM
 #23

Does Satoshi know about this?  Tongue
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February 10, 2015, 05:44:40 PM
 #24


I'm very happy to have you here and I'm thankful for the opportunity to learn.

I agree that the article should be much more explained. Your points help me to recognize where I need to put more emphasis.

The mathematico-logical background needs expanding some and needs to be a bit more coherent about the solidity it confers to the principles of what you're aiming to do with rules.

right, nothing is rigorous there, and I may assume a wrong assumption that the expert reader see it all. I think my next answers will shed some light for you:

Quote
The section on RDF is a bit loose but that may be just a linguistic challenge (you describe the components of a triple/quad as “words”, which they certainly aren't).

it's both true in formal language formalism and makes sense to the common reader Smiley

Quote
I'm passingly familiar with EulerGUI and I'm somewhat surprised at your choice (as opposed to Protege, by contrast). It is (unfortunately) ill-resourced and has fallen behind the curve. I note that they claim to support FuXi, which is going back about five years now.
Chime has no current plan to take Fuxi forward and so it is now sadly confined to either the ‘layercake’ frozen Python 2.6/RDFLib 2.4.1 package or my now-obsolete port for use with RDFLib>=3 (pre SPARQL 1.1). FuXi doesn't work with gromgull's SPARQL 1.1 implementation and isn't likely to without a major refactoring that Chime has no intention of doing, aiui. So, for any forward-looking project, FuXI isn't really a viable option.

Existing tools are only for the beginning. I see the next versions to be SMT solvers based and such. BTW,  HunterMinerCrafter and myself (but mainly him) made some advancements on SMT algorithms (If it interests you please join the IRC channel).
I'm very aware of the fact that not everything is efficiently solvable, and the reasoner won't answer all your questions. But, and that's a big but: the network will. How? Either human or machine. Is it a problem to offer Clay prizes over this network, so when the proof is verified, they automatically win the prize?
Some reasoning will be done by the local client, some by other strong computers (""miners""), some by humans, and some will never be solved.

Quote
I won't comment on cwm's functionality. aiui, it remains timbl's personal code sandpit and I'm not even sure it's officially maintained. I believe it's not compatible with Python 3 which is not necessarily a show-stopper in itself but that must blight its candidacy as underpinning reasoning technology for any ambitious new project, just in terms of executing in anything less than a geological timescale.

Even in my worst dreams I don't see a release of mine in python Smiley it is only for the quick beginning of the formation of the rules. This is where the big questions are!

Quote
I severely doubt that everyday users will be comfortable using Attempto --- I'm fairly sure that successful use requires users to undergo a significant amount of training. You're correct in that it's the only game in town but whilst that might be adequate for research purposes, I question whether it's suitable for imminent deployment - if you can't find at least a handful of successful real-world deployments, I suggest your reconsider the whole NL aspects of the tauchain project with an emphasis on checking what's currently actually feasible and not just researchers' fond imaginings.

I definitely do not expect Attempto to understand Wikipedia. It should be looked like an "easy" programming language.

Quote
On the NL side, I did explore Quepy's NL features in relation to a semweb project that I'm currently pursuing. The project's domain of discourse is the re-presentation of transparency information otherwise ineptly published by the UK Parliament (c.f. owl-o-parl.org) and the Quepy exploration was oriented thus.

I published a write-up of my Quepy investigation which I shall hesitantly recommend to other readers of this thread in that they might find it accessible and gain some illumination on RDF, etc.

Gonna read now!

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February 10, 2015, 05:55:45 PM
 #25

Quote
Quote
On the NL side, I did explore Quepy's NL features in relation to a semweb project that I'm currently pursuing. The project's domain of discourse is the re-presentation of transparency information otherwise ineptly published by the UK Parliament (c.f. owl-o-parl.org) and the Quepy exploration was oriented thus.

I published a write-up of my Quepy investigation which I shall hesitantly recommend to other readers of this thread in that they might find it accessible and gain some illumination on RDF, etc.

Gonna read now!

BTW the proposed design has nothing to do with NL. Obviously, enhancing it into NL would be awesome, but it can be as another layer, and, we do want a firm basis for the sys dont we.

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February 10, 2015, 06:18:16 PM
 #26

Well, I get where you're planning to go but i) the rationale is somewhat trivially showy and you seem to have both ii) seriously overestimated the capabilities of the current technology and iii) seriously underestimated the scope and scale of the challenge (to a degree that forces me to question the depth of your understanding of the domain).
you didnt give much detail here, but on the rest of your comment, so i can't answer to this part.

Quote
i) You need to provide more support for breathtakingly-wide statements such as “This class is isomorphic to the class of intuitionistic proofs.” (Can you prove it?)

those are well known results. cf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionistic_type_theory for example


obv calculus of contructions would fit. i'll correct it. again, this doc isn't written for the experts. but i agree it should be accurate anyway.

wrt the temporal representation, we can do blockchain timestamping.

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February 10, 2015, 10:24:34 PM
 #27

OK, so your in the cash collection phase. And even changed your original plans without refunding the money you already collected. Where is the proof of concept?

I have a hard time believing you can deliver on your promise's, all I've seen so far is hot air.

Thats not to say your not legit, I'm saying I've seen nothing to prove that you are. And the proof is on you, your the one asking for backing.

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February 11, 2015, 12:37:05 AM
 #28

watching .....
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February 11, 2015, 05:34:05 AM
 #29

is this the new thread of a old project?




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February 11, 2015, 06:25:34 AM
 #30

Whitepaper is interesting , let's see how this project takes  shape.
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February 11, 2015, 06:46:44 AM
 #31

OK, so your in the cash collection phase. And even changed your original plans without refunding the money you already collected.

I didn't collect that much so far Smiley
When I find out a new thing (namely, tauchain) that makes the classic blockchain obsolete, I think the correct thing is to move to the new tech. ofc this was done with a lot of thinking and getting advice.

Quote
Where is the proof of concept?
I have a hard time believing you can deliver on your promise's, all I've seen so far is hot air.

Which promise didn't I keep? Original Zennet's plan is to keep the source closed up to release. Tau code will hopefully be public soon, and ofc the code tau users will put in it.

Quote
Thats not to say your not legit, I'm saying I've seen nothing to prove that you are. And the proof is on you, your the one asking for backing.

There are a lot of proofs to the dev process, just take the docs for example (at zennet case). Joining our IRC will leave you with no doubts, I guess.

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February 11, 2015, 07:28:27 AM
 #32

I'd like to clarify, due to many questions about this, that on Agoras there isn't any ongoing generation of new coins planned, by the same rationale presented here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=736447.msg9430958#msg9430958

All talks about miners can indeed mean POW as in BTC for the sake of timestamping, but still not incentivized by new coins. Conversly, when I mentioned quad-quoted ""miners"", the meaning is some participants with heavy computatational powers doing some work for the sake of the net, but not timestamping, nor coin generation.

So when we speak about %50 of Agoras, it's from everything. And, we will sell beyond the %50 -- similarly to the previously planned Zennet model -- but the price set is for the "first" %50.

Maybe some of you got the impression that we became zillioners while delivering nothing. The very opposite is true. We work very hard to give to the world yet unseen (even unimaginable) abilities, and we didn't bring enough money even to cover our expenses. I'm a sci and tech guy, not a marketing man. I think it can be seen we have never pushed the public to purchase. Yes, we spoke a lot about a public presale, but things change and legal work has to be redone (and we need money for this as well).

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February 11, 2015, 08:05:50 AM
 #33

OK, so your in the cash collection phase. And even changed your original plans without refunding the money you already collected.

I didn't collect that much so far Smiley
When I find out a new thing (namely, tauchain) that makes the classic blockchain obsolete, I think the correct thing is to move to the new tech. ofc this was done with a lot of thinking and getting advice.



What's the advantage and disadvantage of Tau-chain comparing with the classic blockchain, what about the blockchain of NXT?

The most truthful and covering answer would be: on tau's chain, rules and behavior can be changed over time by the users.
But this answer is obviously not enough.

Let me state a very particular use case: Over tau one could give a formal specification of a program to be written. Like: a program that only verifies if a given program meets some requirements. Of course, it is inherently much easier to verify a program than to write it. Now, whoever supplies a code that fulfills the requirements, will be able to supply a logical proof for that (it is possible with functional programming languages), and the network will automatically reward them the coins offered for the implementation.
Moreover: next time someone will look for a program (or function) answering those specifications, the answer will already be there, and code will be able to be reused.

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February 11, 2015, 01:29:54 PM
 #34

you should make some noise about the presale so that more people are aware of it. Smiley
for example, at least have a cleanly designed website when you decide to "officially go public" about the sale because I feel that the current phase is still more of a "pre-presale" Cheesy
all the best,
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February 11, 2015, 01:38:57 PM
 #35

you should make some noise about the presale so that more people are aware of it. Smiley
for example, at least have a cleanly designed website when you decide to "officially go public" about the sale because I feel that the current phase is still more of a "pre-presale" Cheesy
all the best,

agreed, and in progress. the sale has just began and may take months, we will invest resources in PR over time ofc.
btw http://www.idni.org/pre-sale

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February 11, 2015, 04:06:47 PM
 #36

Just found out about this: https://twitter.com/tauchain
It's a fake.

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February 12, 2015, 12:07:01 AM
 #37

the pdf was updated with some important clarifications.

Also updated the minimum purchase amount to $25, due to email from an African person asking to consider still weak countries.

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February 12, 2015, 01:21:08 AM
 #38

Good call on the minimum purchase price reduction! Smiley
This project is only getting more and more exciting and the future is gonna be bright!
People will realize soon enough that taking any part in it is a big privilege (as investors or otherwise).

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February 12, 2015, 02:30:28 AM
 #39

Good call on the minimum purchase price reduction! Smiley
This project is only getting more and more exciting and the future is gonna be bright!
People will realize soon enough that taking any part in it is a big privilege (as investors or otherwise).

The price reduction will let more people invest and create a bigger distribution with more people. It will result in a bigger community.
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February 12, 2015, 05:54:04 AM
 #40

Any structure, that of a building or that of a social organisation  was created  or is  running by an engineered program. Engineering being the set of rules applied to matter or living systems is that which is laid beneath anything whatsoever.
When we coin the term engineered we often assume a predetermined design executed  and controlled by the force of the designer engineer.. Engineering  often defined as the application of  knowledge in order to create something. But that definition apply only in the case of an external centralized fixed engineered scheme. The other type,The type that rules in most of nature's behavior and all forms of life is decentralized, and it is rarely  categorized as engineered unless assuming an external force, namely God.  When we come to asses the benefit of a decentralized system we are looking at the operation itself and not at how it was created.  An engineered system can be ruled internally by a small and powerful minority or by a large majority, but only a P2P network can be such that the power to change the design is equally divided between all participant at any given moment,  and the rules of the design can be affected and can evolve as a result of a direct feedback interaction between individuals and their environment Tau- Chain to my understanding is the next step in that direction..not only AI but A-Life, which on its most fundamental level is a decentralized P2P engineered scheme, set to create the most complex network of interaction limited by self destruction and navigated by the forces of both.

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