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Author Topic: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network  (Read 237204 times)
klosure
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March 31, 2016, 12:01:48 PM
 #561

It's not fair that other buyers will profit and he wouldn't.
At the same time, it wouldn't be fair to other Agora holders to let the issue unresolved.
Here are the constraints I can see:
1. Dor should keep at least as much profit as other buyers who didn't step up
2. Other Agora holders should be made whole for the accidental dilution of their stake
3. No funding money / sales proceeds should be taken from Tau/Agora project to resolve the matter as this would be counter-productive to everyone.
4. Ideally, Dor should get some reward for his transparency and willingness to arrange the situation,

Here are a few ways we can do that without much drama:

Proposal 1: prorated holding increase
With the help of Dor (log of his trades) and the trade history on Bittrex, we can calculate the average price (let's call it P) of all the trades of other buyers (other than Dor) and the total quantity of these trades (let's call it Q). We don't know how many actual buyers these trades correspond to, so we have to assume that all other trades belong to a single buyer.
(1) can be satisfied by allowing Dor to buy Q tokens at price P per token (minus what he already paid) and return the rest of the tokens to Ohad. If there is a single other buyer, they are even. If there are more (which is very likely the case) Dor gets the best deal of everybody in terms of total notional profit.
(2) following (1) the total dilution is 2*Q. Say the total amount of Tau already sold to investors under the crowdsale is T. The new money mass following accidental dilution is T+2Q. The increase rate of the accidental dilution was therefore R=(T+2Q)/T. Holders can be made whole by multiplying their holdings by R when you issue the new token. It may seem that increasing every buyer's holding equally is the same as doing nothing as it doesn't change the relative holding of every buyer with respect to the current float. But since there is a fixed cap of 42M to the max supply, and later buyers won't have this scaling applied, this still helps compensating earlier buyers in the longer term.
(3) Since only tokens (that would have been destroyed at the end of the crowdsale anyway) are spent by Ohad from the crowdsale fund, this doesn't affect the funding of the project.
(4) IDNI / Agora foundation's own pool of tokens can be used to pay a discretionary reward to Dor for helping. Since these funds would have been issued anyway at the launch of Agora, this doesn't affect the money supply long term for crowdsale buyers.

Proposal 2: prorated sale
Another approach would be to give to everybody the same opportunity to buy tokens at a lower price prorata of their current holdings so that what started as an outage endup being a firesale that will benefit everyone including the project's finances.
We calculate the average price of the transaction. If Dor is keen to cooperate and buy his tokens, P is the average price at which other buyers got their tokens. If Dor is less or not at all keen to cooperate, P is the average price at which every buyer including Dor got their tokens. Now, to calculate cap on how much each holder can buy, we take R = Dor's Recent Purchased Quantity / Dor's total holdings (I understand that Dor holds a lot already, so this ratio shouldn't be that high). If T is the total current supply of tokens sold in the crowdsale, you start a sale for maximum R * T tokens. Each agora holder can buy up to R * balance of his address at price P. You will need to make a snapshot at a specific date and use balances in the snapshot. Holders must move their funds to a Omni wallet before the snapshot. Additional tokens are to be sent at the same address as the one used to calculate the cap to avoid cheating.  You should put a time limit on the offer, long enough for people who care to have the time to take notice.
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March 31, 2016, 01:18:12 PM
 #562

Can someone please explain to me in a nice concise paragraph what just happened? I have read the last few pages and I don't understand what's happening. Who scammed ohad?

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March 31, 2016, 01:20:41 PM
 #563

Here are a few ways we can do that without much drama:

Proposal 1: prorated holding increase

Proposal 2: prorated sale

Barring the possibility of Bittrex resolving this unfortunate predicament (within the Terms of Service, of course), I believe Proposal 1 is more adequate because it doesn't allow for anyone being left behind.



Can someone please explain to me in a nice concise paragraph what just happened? I have read the last few pages and I don't understand what's happening. Who scammed ohad?

Some low-life scammer impersonated Tristan from Poloniex...   Ohad sent 21M AGRS thinking the token would be listed on Poloniex...   500k AGRS were sent to Bittrex and dumped hard...   Bittrex froze the orderbooks, but we're still waiting to find out whether they also managed to lock the account before any withdrawals and/or further trading happened with the stolen BTC...   AGRS tokens are officially void and Ohad will create a new token first chance to match everyone's holdings...   Bittrex will do the switch automatically for its customers...   the rest of the discussion revolves around resolving that some folks ended up with an astronomical amount of tokens at extremely low rates while the presale is ongoing.

Simcoin (SIM) & CryptoPlay (CPS) DEV NxtChg IS A FUCKIN' LOW-LIFE PIECE OF SHIT EMBEZZLING PSYCHOPATH   Angry
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March 31, 2016, 03:05:41 PM
 #564

Again, if the trade has been done on illegitimate terms and has been done so. The trade becomes null.
IF the trade is reversible, buyers must be refunded 1:1. Nothing less, nothing more.
IF the trade is not reversible then ... But let's see.
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March 31, 2016, 03:25:20 PM
 #565

Again, if the trade has been done on illegitimate terms and has been done so. The trade becomes null.
IF the trade is reversible, buyers must be refunded 1:1. Nothing less, nothing more.
IF the trade is not reversible then ... But let's see.

Sorry I don't understand it. Everyone here is screaming for decentralization but not even we here are able to handle it. There has to be a insurance for those things, that will buy the tokens back. That is the only legitimate way. If I steal something from your house the insurance will pay as well, if you have one. Of course the police will try to find it. But in a completely decentralized system there is no tracking possible. It is simply gone. So you have to pay more attention or have an insurance. If not, you are fucked!
It is simply luck, that you could hold back the selling of all.

BTW: in this case its really ridiculous. Just picture a scenario, where the "scammer" dumped all. Who is fucked more? We or ohad?
Repeatedly: This presale is taking way too long and it should have ended already.
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March 31, 2016, 03:45:53 PM
 #566

There is no way to reverse the trades.  By the time we were notified, the coins were dumped and the BTC had been withdrawn

thanks,
richie@bittrex

Looking for the best exchange? -> https://bittrex.com
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March 31, 2016, 03:51:50 PM
 #567

I just created a new token called "IDNI Agoras" (asset id 58). Same amount. The IDNI prefix should indicate that these are the formal tokens.
The new tokens aren't distributed yet, we'll begin distribute it once the discussion converges. The issuer address is the same: 14gF3Up7wdRdkxAL4GgQLdnM8CThgDUSHR

So, on omni wallets, people would see both tokens: Agoras and IDNI Agoras. Only "IDNI Agoras" will take place, while "Agoras Tokens" (asset id 35) becomes defunct.

That all said for omni wallets only. Be careful when you send or receive tokens, to use only the new ones. Bittrex will do the substitution automatically.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
klosure
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March 31, 2016, 03:56:38 PM
 #568


Proposal 1: prorated holding increase
With the help of Dor (log of his trades) and the trade history on Bittrex, we can calculate the average price (let's call it P) of all the trades of other buyers (other than Dor) and the total quantity of these trades (let's call it Q). We don't know how many actual buyers these trades correspond to, so we have to assume that all other trades belong to a single buyer.
(1) can be satisfied by allowing Dor to buy Q tokens at price P per token (minus what he already paid) and return the rest of the tokens to Ohad. If there is a single other buyer, they are even. If there are more (which is very likely the case) Dor gets the best deal of everybody in terms of total notional profit.
(2) following (1) the total dilution is 2*Q. Say the total amount of Tau already sold to investors under the crowdsale is T. The new money mass following accidental dilution is T+2Q. The increase rate of the accidental dilution was therefore R=(T+2Q)/T. Holders can be made whole by multiplying their holdings by R when you issue the new token. It may seem that increasing every buyer's holding equally is the same as doing nothing as it doesn't change the relative holding of every buyer with respect to the current float. But since there is a fixed cap of 42M to the max supply, and later buyers won't have this scaling applied, this still helps compensating earlier buyers in the longer term.
(3) Since only tokens (that would have been destroyed at the end of the crowdsale anyway) are spent by Ohad from the crowdsale fund, this doesn't affect the funding of the project.
(4) IDNI / Agora foundation's own pool of tokens can be used to pay a discretionary reward to Dor for helping. Since these funds would have been issued anyway at the launch of Agora, this doesn't affect the money supply long term for crowdsale buyers.


Answering to myself. An even simpler way to compensate for the dilution is simply to decrease the max supply.
So in (2) instead of multiplying everyone's holding by R=(T+2Q)/T, Ohad can simply divide the max supply down to S = 42M / R.
The huge advantage of that is that the new token can be distributed 1:1, which will avoid having to ask (and trust) the exchange to dispatch properly the extra funds to its users. From an economoic perspective, the result in terms of relative weight of each holder is exactly the same.
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March 31, 2016, 03:59:09 PM
 #569

I just created a new token called "IDNI Agoras" (asset id 58). Same amount.
Hmmm. I was just proposing that you issue less to offset for the dilution.
Nevermind, you can always destroy some of the funds once we decide what's the best way to proceed.
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March 31, 2016, 04:02:53 PM
 #570

I just created a new token called "IDNI Agoras" (asset id 58). Same amount.
Hmmm. I was just proposing that you issue less to offset for the dilution.
Nevermind, you can always destroy some of the funds once we decide what's the best way to proceed.

sure, that's no problem.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
Kartaba
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March 31, 2016, 04:03:29 PM
 #571

How much is this prank gonna cost us?
lordoliver
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March 31, 2016, 04:19:04 PM
 #572

How much is this prank gonna cost us?

500000*17cent = 85000$ multiplied by the percentage of shares you own.
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March 31, 2016, 04:23:45 PM
 #573

500K out of 42M is roughly 1.2%.
if the 500K would be destroyed, then this will increase the worth of all holders in 1.2%.
we can simply give all current holders 1.2% more than they have now, without destroying the 500K.
this proposal doesn't answer all concerns raised but only to demonstrate another direction of thought.

conversely we can do the calculation not according to 42M but according to the amount of coins sold, which is about 1/8 of it, so it's about 10%.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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March 31, 2016, 04:30:16 PM
 #574

500K out of 42M is roughly 1.2%.
if the 500K would be destroyed, then this will increase the worth of all holders in 1.2%.
we can simply give all current holders 1.2% more than they have now, without destroying the 500K.
this proposal doesn't answer all concerns raised but only to demonstrate another direction of thought.

We have still all the same percentage, because the scammer will also get more. In your offer stands, that at the beginning the leftover coins will be destroyed. So its equal to say: "I will only sell 41.5M" now.
This implies, that you want to sell all tokens in any way. Whats with the not sold coins being destroyed then?
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March 31, 2016, 04:32:43 PM
 #575

We have still all the same percentage, because the scammer will also get more. In your offer stands, that at the beginning the leftover coins will be destroyed. So its equal to say: "I will only sell 41.5M" now.
This implies, that you want to sell all tokens in any way. Whats with the not sold coins being destroyed then?

of course i speak about the scammer not getting more (but about the new tokens), and the 500K holders also won't get that addition.
so it fits even with coin destruction, which is still planned as usual.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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March 31, 2016, 04:40:33 PM
 #576

We have still all the same percentage, because the scammer will also get more. In your offer stands, that at the beginning the leftover coins will be destroyed. So its equal to say: "I will only sell 41.5M" now.
This implies, that you want to sell all tokens in any way. Whats with the not sold coins being destroyed then?

of course i speak about the scammer not getting more (but about the new tokens), and the 500K holders also won't get that addition.
so it fits even with coin destruction, which is still planned as usual.

Lets see, if you can let bittrex manage that. Probably not that easy, but maybe possible.
But the calculation is wrong. You can't calculate 500K out of 42M but 500k out of the sold coins...
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March 31, 2016, 04:42:18 PM
 #577

We have still all the same percentage, because the scammer will also get more. In your offer stands, that at the beginning the leftover coins will be destroyed. So its equal to say: "I will only sell 41.5M" now.
This implies, that you want to sell all tokens in any way. Whats with the not sold coins being destroyed then?

of course i speak about the scammer not getting more (but about the new tokens), and the 500K holders also won't get that addition.
so it fits even with coin destruction, which is still planned as usual.

Lets see, if you can let bittrex manage that. Probably not that easy, but maybe possible.

nothing to do with bittrex. omni dev writing a script for automatic distribution of the new token

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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March 31, 2016, 04:46:48 PM
 #578


I'll leave the floor to you folks...   I respect Ohad's willingness to accommodate existing token holders and I am positive that the final decision will be good in my book.

Simcoin (SIM) & CryptoPlay (CPS) DEV NxtChg IS A FUCKIN' LOW-LIFE PIECE OF SHIT EMBEZZLING PSYCHOPATH   Angry
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=929688.msg10205597#msg10205597                    "A world with the money can not be perfect." - BCNext
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March 31, 2016, 04:49:30 PM
 #579

nothing to do with bittrex. omni dev writing a script for automatic distribution of the new token

how does omni dev know, which of the bittrex coins were sold of the scammer?
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March 31, 2016, 04:53:04 PM
 #580


But the calculation is somehow wrong. You can't calculate 500K out of 42M but 500k out of the sold coins...
How much are sold actually? Lets say 10M, then we are already at 5%...
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