Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network

[ohad]

ohad
did martinzester returned coins  
if he did then how much coins he returned and how many total coins left

he bought directly from the scammer over the counter, not on bittrex.

[freedomfighter]

didnt follow every word in the suddenly active thread..

BUT- isnt the simplest solution, especially when Dor returned his coins is to just issue a new coin with 42M and distribute to all current holders other to the thief's account and other than any other account that coins were transferred from the thief's account. If someone else is hurt from this he can write a private to Ohad who is honest and accomodating and will check better this time I am sure.... but the questionable coins are very few now. or maybe this was the solution already...? :-)

Also- the never ending ICO is a detriment to the project. what is the point? announce a final month, get done with it and have newly interested people buy in - in the free market.

since there will only be 10M coins for example after the burn, the value of each will eventually increase and a real market will start including an increased value for the project's funds to be able to finance marketing and maybe more dev's to expedite some issues.

[ohad]

didnt follow every word in the suddenly active thread..

BUT- isnt the simplest solution, especially when Dor returned his coins is to just issue a new coin with 42M and distribute to all current holders other to the thief's account and other than any other account that coins were transferred from the thief's account. If someone else is hurt from this he can write a private to Ohad who is honest and accomodating and will check better this time I am sure.... but the questionable coins are very few now. or maybe this was the solution already...? :-)

yes, that's the solution indeed

Also- the never ending ICO is a detriment to the project. what is the point? announce a final month, get done with it and have newly interested people buy in - in the free market.

show me one decent tech startup that declared a date to end of funding

since there will only be 10M coins for example after the burn, the value of each will eventually increase and a real market will start including an increased value for the project's funds to be able to finance marketing and maybe more dev's to expedite some issues.

but the project won't necessarily have the luxury of not spending the tokens before they reach the moon. we'll adjust the premine (and maybe other settings) in the future when it becomes more relevant

[freedomfighter]

Also- the never ending ICO is a detriment to the project. what is the point? announce a final month, get done with it and have newly interested people buy in - in the free market.

show me one decent tech startup that declared a date to end of funding

Ethereum, counterparty, NXT, Maidsafe etc etc etc. I would increase the percentage of coins kept for the project (besides for the devs) and AS INTEREST grows in the project, i.e. demand, so will the price increase since the supply will be limited. Right now you basically offer unlimited supply+ some previous buyers sell (many times lower than you) and this holds down a healthy supply and demand curve. Ending the ICO will mean that supply becomes limited and since the project progresses, value should increase as not many previous holders will sell anymore + new comers will create demand that with less supply will translate to better value.

since there will only be 10M coins for example after the burn, the value of each will eventually increase and a real market will start including an increased value for the project's funds to be able to finance marketing and maybe more dev's to expedite some issues.

but the project won't necessarily have the luxury of not spending the tokens before they reach the moon. we'll adjust the premine (and maybe other settings) in the future when it becomes more relevant
[/quote]

That's why i suggest that you increase the project's share and differentiate between this and your personal coin holdings. for example if the "project" keeps 20% of the final number in an audit-able and transparent fashion it should have sufficient funding for some time and especially if the ETH like scenario plays out-:the ETH foundation now has funding for 5 years. All from the 42 days pre sale. from 14 cents to 11 dollars (no touring complete ofcourse...). If they were continue to sell for 2 years the value would still be 14 cents.

[lordoliver]

Also- the never ending ICO is a detriment to the project. what is the point? announce a final month, get done with it and have newly interested people buy in - in the free market.

show me one decent tech startup that declared a date to end of funding

Ethereum, counterparty, NXT, Maidsafe etc etc etc. I would increase the percentage of coins kept for the project (besides for the devs) and AS INTEREST grows in the project, i.e. demand, so will the price increase since the supply will be limited. Right now you basically offer unlimited supply+ some previous buyers sell (many times lower than you) and this holds down a healthy supply and demand curve. Ending the ICO will mean that supply becomes limited and since the project progresses, value should increase as not many previous holders will sell anymore + new comers will create demand that with less supply will translate to better value.

since there will only be 10M coins for example after the burn, the value of each will eventually increase and a real market will start including an increased value for the project's funds to be able to finance marketing and maybe more dev's to expedite some issues.

but the project won't necessarily have the luxury of not spending the tokens before they reach the moon. we'll adjust the premine (and maybe other settings) in the future when it becomes more relevant

That's why i suggest that you increase the project's share and differentiate between this and your personal coin holdings. for example if the "project" keeps 20% of the final number in an audit-able and transparent fashion it should have sufficient funding for some time and especially if the ETH like scenario plays out-:the ETH foundation now has funding for 5 years. All from the 42 days pre sale. from 14 cents to 11 dollars (no touring complete ofcourse...). If they were continue to sell for 2 years the value would still be 14 cents.

wasted energy. I told him many times already... stubborn..

[ohad]

Also- the never ending ICO is a detriment to the project. what is the point? announce a final month, get done with it and have newly interested people buy in - in the free market.

show me one decent tech startup that declared a date to end of funding

Ethereum, counterparty, NXT, Maidsafe etc etc etc. I would increase the percentage of coins kept for the project (besides for the devs) and AS INTEREST grows in the project, i.e. demand, so will the price increase since the supply will be limited. Right now you basically offer unlimited supply+ some previous buyers sell (many times lower than you) and this holds down a healthy supply and demand curve. Ending the ICO will mean that supply becomes limited and since the project progresses, value should increase as not many previous holders will sell anymore + new comers will create demand that with less supply will translate to better value.

my question was still accurate, but let's have a look at dev startups outside the crypto world (which usually offer more complicated and more reliable developments). there are very good reasons they behave this way. long term dev and support aren't trivial to achieve or predict, aside putting more value (features) into the products which never ends.
i put some more elaboration on this point at www.idni.org/blog/projectroadmap

since there will only be 10M coins for example after the burn, the value of each will eventually increase and a real market will start including an increased value for the project's funds to be able to finance marketing and maybe more dev's to expedite some issues.

but the project won't necessarily have the luxury of not spending the tokens before they reach the moon. we'll adjust the premine (and maybe other settings) in the future when it becomes more relevant
[/quote]

That's why i suggest that you increase the project's share and differentiate between this and your personal coin holdings. for example if the "project" keeps 20% of the final number in an audit-able and transparent fashion it should have sufficient funding for some time and especially if the ETH like scenario plays out-:the ETH foundation now has funding for 5 years. All from the 42 days pre sale. from cents to 11 dollars (no touring complete ofcourse...). If they were continue to sell for 2 years the value would still be 14 cents.
[/quote]

this might make sense, but i think it's too soon. i think that after tau is ready and have a stable network we'll be much smarter, and also be able to make decisions collaboratively over tau (during the implementation of agoras).

[Kartaba]

I think Dor, the CEO of Synereo, has proven his character and moral fiber to us by his actions.  It is nice to know that there are still people who do the right thing regardless of the monetary consequences.  I hope Ohad compensates Dor for his losses.  We all are fortunate that it was Dor who purchased the mass majority of the stolen tokens.

Agree 100%, i am glad everything worked out nicely. I would like to thank the dev of synereo for being an upstanding person, much respect.

[martinzester]

ohad
did martinzester returned coins  
if he did then how much coins he returned and how many total coins left

he bought directly from the scammer over the counter, not on bittrex.

I have sent tokens to him yesterday when I found they were stolen tokens,I was getting into agoras but got scammed by someone who sold me those tokens.

[kamvreto]

still cant close buy order at bittrex !!!

[ohad]

still cant close buy order at bittrex !!!

i'm waiting for omni dev now for the distribution script. once it'll be ready, bittrex will get back alive right away. no latter than tomorrow, i hope

[Counterfiat]

The principle 'first do no harm' if applied in law gives a framework that provides for desirable long-term positive outcomes. For example the expression, 'we don't negotiate with terrorists' is not beneficial to those held captive, but removes motive for such heinous crimes into the future, saving many more lives and heartbreak. The way that common law has developed over time, is similar with respect to 'receiving stolen goods'. It takes away the ability to profit from such situations by giving the liability for the loss to the receiver of stolen goods. Therefore if we seek 'to do no harm', we seek to enact society's standards of preventing harm now and into the future.

If Ohad was to request all tokens 'received as stolen goods' be returned within seven days, there is legal precedent in the fairness of this action. If Ohad were then to say that though a receiver of stolen goods is to bear the loss in accordance with the laws of our land, however I am prepared to make a goodwill gesture by paying an amount equal to the cost in btc - This would be incredibly generous on Ohad's part. If further to this Ohad was to give a bounty, if returned in seven days, Foerster suggested 15%, then that would be way over and above what anyone could expect as a receiver of stolen goods.

To empower the receiver of stolen goods with a beneficiary interest, has been proven time and again over many centuries in the development of common law to be morally destructive.

Hence should the return of stolen property be done immediately without any further negotiation?

Ohad could choose to reserve some 500,000 tokens or more for potential legal costs, and generous bounties into the future. If these contingency coins are never used, then they are as good as destroyed in effect.

Thereby the way is now made clear to cancel all previous coins, redistributing new coins to only the deserving recipients, leaving out completely the stolen coins, except the contingency coins. This truly fits with the principle 'first do no harm' to the vast body of people involved in countless endeavours.



Disclaimer: these discussions might serve as preparatory thoughts for further discussions with a lawyer. I am in no way giving legal advice; now, beforehand or in the future with regards to any or all input I make. I suggest to seek professional legal advice and treat my comments as entertainment value only.

I thought it was important to outline the legal and moral stance behind asking the question -

"Hence should the return of stolen property be done immediately without any further negotiation?"

Less than three hours later the question was resolved - with announcement of ~ 95% tokens to be returned.


I hope my post was helpful in some way.

[Counterfiat]

I just spoke with Dor, the person who bought most of the 500K.
He wasn't aware at all to the discussion here as he's getting ready for a travel. Once I told him that there is some criticism here etc., he presented a *great* will to resolve everything. He will do whatever takes.
We have to bear in mind that after all, he's not the only buyer at that low prices, and it's not fair that other buyers will profit and he wouldn't.
Let's raise some ideas how to resolve it in a fair peaceful way, and let's give it a day or two.

Giving the BTC back to the buyers isn't an issue: if decided, I'll pay it fully, as it is all my fault.

But ofcourse everything was done professionally behind the scenes between Ohad and Dor themselves, one can expect.

[enhu]

I don't see any specification of this coin why.
I cna see however the IPO is still open and anyone can still buy right?

[klosure]

I don't see any specification of this coin why.

There is no formal specification for Agora at the moment. The spec will likely be written directly in Tau logic when Tau-chain (the distributed plateform on which Agora will be running) is live. In the mean time, you can read the Tau whitepaper that covers the design of the Tau programming language and gives some hints of what the Tau-chain plateform will look like. You can also look at the Zennet thread (the earlier iteration of Agora) which gives a lot of technical details on the distributed computing model that Agora will be using. You will find a lot more information on IDNI, Tauchain and Zennet's websites as well as on this thread.

I cna see however the IPO is still open and anyone can still buy right?

The presale is momentarily suspended due to the theft of some of the presale funds.
The Agora tokens are currently being reissued as a new asset (asset id 58 on Omni)
Trading will resume some time this week or next. Follow this thread for more information.
Since the current asset tokens (asset id 35 on Omni) will soon be invalidated, do not purchase these tokens from anyone

[andyatcrux]

still cant close buy order at bittrex !!!

Ooh, double frowny. I think you conveyed your dissatisfaction with the situation,  .

 Seriously though if that is the case than perhaps Bittrex could be swayed to hit the reset button if enough people messaged them. I doubt anyone wants to keep their buy orders open at this point.

[ohad]

new tokens sent.
waiting for bittrex to resume trade.

[tobeaj2mer01]

new tokens sent.
waiting for bittrex to resume trade.

What's the new token's name? It's still Agoras? How can  I distinguish it from my old one?

[cryptoman77777]

I can't close a buy order on bittrex   

when is the problem solved and will be open bidding?

[ohad]

guess it's better to destroy the old tokens (asset id 35), at least addresses with high amounts.
so either send them to me to 14gF3Up7wdRdkxAL4GgQLdnM8CThgDUSHR, and if you sent me by mistake the good asset (58), i can send back to the sending address.
or you can also burn the old asset (35) directly to 1PrevAgorasXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXYBAVyY if you're certain you won't do any mistake.
i understand that this might cost some nontrivial fees, so don't bother too much especially if you hold low amounts.
it's just better for people to see that this old token is mostly burnt.

again, this is all optional. except for the scammer, in which it's mandatory to return all tokens, unless he wants to get into deeper legal troubles.
do not follow the above instructions for coins you hold on bittrex.

[regexlove]

Sorry,
generally: So the new token will mirror the old one until march29?  Is Bittrex still wondering to reverse and hopefully paused scammer's account or did the scammer withdraw bitcoin?   If he withdrew, will Ohad cover bitcoins spent on march 30, which would let the market resume closest to as it was.  (Or will bitcoins spend be covered through tokens converted to a a fixed rate like 0.00050 in consensus with everyone?)  (- both march30-solutions do not consider the possibility that the scammer foresaw this and bought cheap tokes from himself with other bittrex accounts)