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Author Topic: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network  (Read 258547 times)
ohad
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March 22, 2016, 09:08:19 AM
 #481

English translation of a Hebrew talk I gave on a Bitcoin conference recently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utggm7cuGbo (enable subtitles)

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March 22, 2016, 10:57:47 AM
 #482

Great lecture!

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March 24, 2016, 01:03:49 AM
 #483

That was indeed a fantastic lecture, thanks for posting.

Please excuse my lack of knowledge of semantic web at this point but will there be a way for developers who are familiar with other OO languages to write code into the tauchain? It seems like it would be a huge mainstream adoption hurdle to overcome if all people have to write/find in the RDF family. I understand that having provable code is the whole point of Tau and RDF allows that, I just see limitations if anyone who wants to adopt has to understand RDF to write it or create the requirements to check if it is already in the chain.

Other than dogma, is there a reason to make this a public project? What is stopping Ohad from going private with this once it gets close and keeping this incredible technology to a business of his own? I generally don't understand why this needs to have a public element to it at all other than having strong ideals.

I think Im going to gamble and invest a lot in this, the payoff is huge.
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March 24, 2016, 02:13:36 AM
 #484

That was indeed a fantastic lecture, thanks for posting.

Please excuse my lack of knowledge of semantic web at this point but will there be a way for developers who are familiar with other OO languages to write code into the tauchain? It seems like it would be a huge mainstream adoption hurdle to overcome if all people have to write/find in the RDF family. I understand that having provable code is the whole point of Tau and RDF allows that, I just see limitations if anyone who wants to adopt has to understand RDF to write it or create the requirements to check if it is already in the chain.

Other than dogma, is there a reason to make this a public project? What is stopping Ohad from going private with this once it gets close and keeping this incredible technology to a business of his own? I generally don't understand why this needs to have a public element to it at all other than having strong ideals.

I think Im going to gamble and invest a lot in this, the payoff is huge.

thanks, RDF doesn't have a decidable logic! it's tau's innovation to combine MLTT with RDF, which will allow provable code.
RDF is a family of languages, well known and one of the most widely used.
Tau is built in a way that it can have additional frontends, namely, every language will work as long as it is translated to triples/quads or equivalent.
the reason the project is public is that it is exactly what the project is about. it has nothing new to offer otherwise. more info is all around, but to name two posts: http://www.idni.org/blog/decentralized-democracy and www.idni.org/blog/projectroadmap

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March 24, 2016, 08:33:40 AM
 #485

Ohad, when it comes time to create the Agoras token, would/could you consider CryptoNote? Perhaps a fork of Monero?
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March 24, 2016, 12:13:06 PM
 #486

In Ethereum they have ConseSys group which consists of startups using smart contracts to build useful Dapps (decentralized applications). It is much more easier way to show the potential of the system to ordinary users or programmers. Are there any plans to create such start-ups which will use tau?

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March 24, 2016, 12:15:22 PM
 #487

Ohad, when it comes time to create the Agoras token, would/could you consider CryptoNote? Perhaps a fork of Monero?

first we have to know the mining scheme on tau that will be determined by the first users. this will reflect agoras' mining scheme

why not distribute coin in ICO?


what do you mean? the coin distribution is via bittrex or email

In Ethereum they have ConseSys group which consists of startups using smart contracts to build useful Dapps (decentralized applications). It is much more easier way to show the potential of the system to ordinary users or programmers. Are there any plans to create such start-ups which will use tau?

tau is here to revolutionize the world of software development, indeed

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March 24, 2016, 12:42:46 PM
 #488

Ohad, when it comes time to create the Agoras token, would/could you consider CryptoNote? Perhaps a fork of Monero?

first we have to know the mining scheme on tau that will be determined by the first users. this will reflect agoras' mining scheme

I might not be understanding correctly, but I did not mean the mining algorithm. I was meaning, could you use the CryptoNote protocol to provide transaction privacy? Bitcoin is transparent, and this is not good. Sorry if I am mistaken.
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March 24, 2016, 12:45:18 PM
 #489

Ohad, when it comes time to create the Agoras token, would/could you consider CryptoNote? Perhaps a fork of Monero?

first we have to know the mining scheme on tau that will be determined by the first users. this will reflect agoras' mining scheme

I might not be understanding correctly, but I did not mean the mining algorithm. I was meaning, could you use the CryptoNote protocol to provide transaction privacy? Bitcoin is transparent, and this is not good. Sorry if I am mistaken.

we do not plan to explicitly write this feature ourselves (though recently we had some interest in employing homomorphic encryption to the compiler's low level) but every such method could easily be implemented by the users, while fork is not necessary

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March 25, 2016, 04:16:57 PM
 #490

Will it be possible to use tauchain to determine when and where something on the internet was first posted? And more advance then that, the source of all new content published to the internet could essentially be indexed / found? When you say that this will complete create the next generation of search engines, I am a little unclear on what it is about this project that allows it to do so. I like to dream big, but I dont understand the mechanics behind what is possible yet.
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March 25, 2016, 04:24:07 PM
 #491

Will it be possible to use tauchain to determine when and where something on the internet was first posted? And more advance then that, the source of all new content published to the internet could essentially be indexed / found? When you say that this will complete create the next generation of search engines, I am a little unclear on what it is about this project that allows it to do so. I like to dream big, but I dont understand the mechanics behind what is possible yet.

indeed, storing huge amounts of data is possible on tau's dht, while it can be timestamped securely and compactly on the blockchain. this is part of how we plan to replace google. the main bottleneck in competing with google is to have 1M computers like google has. a decentralized network may grow way beyond that.

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March 27, 2016, 08:01:35 AM
 #492

@ohad
I have bought some Agoras Token. some questions:
1) When and how can we get real coins?
2) What is the initial price of Agoras tokens? 0.0006+BTC?
3) How many Agoras tokens were sold?

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March 27, 2016, 09:52:06 AM
 #493

@ohad
I have bought some Agoras Token. some questions:
1) When and how can we get real coins?
2) What is the initial price of Agoras tokens? 0.0006+BTC?
3) How many Agoras tokens were sold?

hi,

1. the real coins are (by definition) only when agoras is ready. can take ~1y. we'll make an automated process of depositing the tokens and receiving the coins.
2. the sale began with 10 cents per token (prices in USD all along)
3. about 5M

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March 27, 2016, 10:44:02 AM
 #494

im removing the ask at .000465 from bittrex for a while (till Apr 1 or a few days later) in order to see how the market behaves without it

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March 27, 2016, 11:43:04 AM
 #495

im removing the ask at .000465 from bittrex for a while (till Apr 1 or a few days later) in order to see how the market behaves without it
It is not wise to manipulate the price in this way. Why not sell all the tokens in ICO way before traded at exchanges?
What you are doing is leading us suspect you just want to get more BTC in a bad way. You should focus on the project more than price.

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March 27, 2016, 11:53:18 AM
 #496

im removing the ask at .000465 from bittrex for a while (till Apr 1 or a few days later) in order to see how the market behaves without it
It is not wise to manipulate the price in this way. Why not sell all the tokens in ICO way before traded at exchanges?
What you are doing is leading us suspect you just want to get more BTC in a bad way. You should focus on the project more than price.

such a thing has never been done before, and is done now not for manipulation purposes but since several buyers thought it'll be better this way, i agreed to make this experiment for a short while to see where the market settles. i don't believe it'll change much

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March 27, 2016, 01:32:50 PM
 #497

For all of you who may be invested in Ethereum , you should pay  close attention to what is said in this lecture while keep in mind that Etherume is Turing complete.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Utggm7cuGbo&feature=youtu.be


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Let us assume that we have a contract and I wish to ask – what will happen.
 Do I need to live through this contract to see what happens with it, or, can I know in advance, what will be it's outcomes.

Godel proved that if a language is rich enough to describe the arithmetics, it is complete, and can prove all the correct statements, and it can also prove all the incorrect statements, as we have just shown. If we have a language that is consistent, and can not prove statements that are incorrect, then it can not prove all statements, it is incomplete, can describe only part of the realities, not all of them.
And so, the world of mathematics, logics and philosophy where in crisis and did not know what to do in order not to be self contradictive. In the 70's till mid 80's came Martin Löf. He formalized a system for the foundations of mathematics. A logical system, that can not be called logics, because it is different. This system is consistent. I can not contradict myself with this system, and therefore, when I have a proof, I can rely on it. If I have a proof for a statement, it means that is it correct, because we can not prove incorrect statements in a consistent language.

And so, Martin Löf presented logics that is today viewed as the new basis for mathematics. It went that far as to be called the new foundation of mathematics. With this logic we can determine if a statement is true or false, including by a computer. Of course, it took time since the 80's to understand what it is all about, and until they verified Martin Löf is indeed correct. Slowly, programming languages were developed to use this trick. For example, we can mention Agda, or Idris.

In these languages we can write code, and ask what the code does, and even receive a mathematically proven answer with all the steps that led to the result. I can rely on that proof and know that it is impossible to prove an incorrect statement.
On the other hand, in Turing complete languages, which are most of the languages that are used today for programming, people do not know the concept of proof on code because it is simply not possible. In order to know if a code works, it is needed to run it. to live through it and see if it works.
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March 27, 2016, 01:38:52 PM
 #498

im removing the ask at .000465 from bittrex for a while (till Apr 1 or a few days later) in order to see how the market behaves without it
It is not wise to manipulate the price in this way. Why not sell all the tokens in ICO way before traded at exchanges?
What you are doing is leading us suspect you just want to get more BTC in a bad way. You should focus on the project more than price.

such a thing has never been done before, and is done now not for manipulation purposes but since several buyers thought it'll be better this way, i agreed to make this experiment for a short while to see where the market settles. i don't believe it'll change much

hmm... it seams it will be a long time (sereral years) and risky investment for us.  Undecided

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March 28, 2016, 12:43:12 AM
 #499

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it seams it will be a long time (sereral years) and risky investment for us.
This is why you might get paid big bucks at the end.

Big asymmetric payoffs were what gave people the incentive to finance the ventures of the Henry Fords, the Thomas Alva Edisons, the Christian Barnards, who produced the miracles that have benefited us all.
Of course, there were lots of losers along the way. We don't remember their names, but they went in with their eyes open, they knew what they were doing, and win or lose, we as society benefited from their willingness to take a chance.

I wouldn't worry to much about exchange price at the moment. The market isn't even close to rationalizing this thing, let alone pricing it. This is nothing more than a idea and some code on github (both of which few people are able to understand).
Also should Tau become a success it doesn't automatically mean that Agoras will.

Something different:
In one video Ohad spoke about the "rules of rule making" for the Tau chain. I think initially these rules could be kept relatively simple to ensure flexibility and fast progress and only later should interest and importance of Tau increase, more sophisticated rules of mixed government type should be introduced. (I favor a mix of oligarchic, democratic and aristocratic elements).
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March 28, 2016, 04:29:54 AM
 #500

offtopic but:
how hard would it be to get a running tally of agoras sold vs btc raised and maybe an average buy-in price.
coinmarketcap shows 42 million (=147billion/3500)but that cant be the number of coins out in the wild. i think its skewing the marketcap is like 5 million. but the btc address from the presale shows like 200BTC this likely + whatever sold on bittrex would give an accurate marketcap

$MAID & $BTC other than that some short hodls and some long held garbage.
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