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Author Topic: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network  (Read 216493 times)
lordoliver
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March 08, 2016, 10:40:21 AM
 #401

Somehow I didn't get it.
So far you comunicate this, correct me, if I am wrong:
You are selling the 42000000 coins to a certain point and then the rest of it will "burned".

But when is that point? How much percentage will an investor get? This feels so insecure...

No offense, but we are in a "decentralized" environment, where you don't just trust.
And to help you see it suspect:
If you didn't release for years you could sell and sell forever without delivering. This is comparable with a IPO of 5+ Million atm. With only a promise...
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ohad
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March 08, 2016, 11:09:49 AM
 #402

Somehow I didn't get it.
So far you comunicate this, correct me, if I am wrong:
You are selling the 42000000 coins to a certain point and then the rest of it will "burned".

But when is that point? How much percentage will an investor get? This feels so insecure...

No offense, but we are in a "decentralized" environment, where you don't just trust.
And to help you see it suspect:
If you didn't release for years you could sell and sell forever without delivering. This is comparable with a IPO of 5+ Million atm. With only a promise...


I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to.
If someone bought 1% out of 42M tokens, and we sell only half of the tokens and destroy the other half, then that buyer will hold 2% of total coins after the destruction. So investors know how much they get. The only 'bad' part is that they can get even more.
Predicting when exactly the product will be ready is beyond my abilities. Some scammers, though, are very good in naming dates Wink
How else can we do it better? Please tell.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
lordoliver
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March 08, 2016, 11:40:17 AM
 #403

I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to.
If someone bought 1% out of 42M tokens, and we sell only half of the tokens and destroy the other half, then that buyer will hold 2% of total coins after the destruction. So investors know how much they get. The only 'bad' part is that they can get even more.
Predicting when exactly the product will be ready is beyond my abilities. Some scammers, though, are very good in naming dates Wink
How else can we do it better? Please tell.

If you want to talk about scamming: What exactly proofs, that you are not scamming? No date is definitely worse than miscalculating and postponing...

First: There is no need to predict precise release dates, but at least a deadline, where you can be sure, you can deliver "something". And you can set the deadline with a worst case prediction as well.
But even, if you can't make ANY estimate:
There is absolutely no need for the IPO deadline to be at release. Trading the tokens is still possible, so anyone can jump in later.

In the current constellation you have all the cards in your hand (up to 5 million dollar and then still 3%), have no need to do good, no need to hurry, no need even to deliver at all, no need to ... whatever.
We can just sit and wait. And before release our funds are locked with no (or a ridiculous) ROI.

If you ended the IPO and got your percentage, we could be sure, you have to do something and do it good, because your percentage is depending on what you do. The market can choose its own market cap. (Now you choose it more or less, because its too high for a promise).

And just to make you understand, that I really like to grant you a lot of money for your work:
I think 3% is way to less. Maintenance and marketing has to be done by you also after release. Otherwise everything will just die...
But your amount should depend on your doings, not on your promises...
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March 08, 2016, 12:11:49 PM
 #404

I think the team of 3% is too little, if IPO issued 420,000 hands team should take 420 000, the total number of 840,000. There must be a long-term development.

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March 08, 2016, 12:25:55 PM
 #405

I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to.
If someone bought 1% out of 42M tokens, and we sell only half of the tokens and destroy the other half, then that buyer will hold 2% of total coins after the destruction. So investors know how much they get. The only 'bad' part is that they can get even more.
Predicting when exactly the product will be ready is beyond my abilities. Some scammers, though, are very good in naming dates Wink
How else can we do it better? Please tell.

If you want to talk about scamming: What exactly proofs, that you are not scamming? No date is definitely worse than miscalculating and postponing...

First: There is no need to predict precise release dates, but at least a deadline, where you can be sure, you can deliver "something". And you can set the deadline with a worst case prediction as well.
But even, if you can't make ANY estimate:
There is absolutely no need for the IPO deadline to be at release. Trading the tokens is still possible, so anyone can jump in later.

In the current constellation you have all the cards in your hand (up to 5 million dollar and then still 3%), have no need to do good, no need to hurry, no need even to deliver at all, no need to ... whatever.
We can just sit and wait. And before release our funds are locked with no (or a ridiculous) ROI.

If you ended the IPO and got your percentage, we could be sure, you have to do something and do it good, because your percentage is depending on what you do. The market can choose its own market cap. (Now you choose it more or less, because its too high for a promise).

And just to make you understand, that I really like to grant you a lot of money for your work:
I think 3% is way to less. Maintenance and marketing has to be done by you also after release. Otherwise everything will just die...
But your amount should depend on your doings, not on your promises...

I did give rough estimations several times ("few months" for tau and ~1y for end of presale and agoras ready).
Also consider that a rigid deadline for the sale, as well as finishing the product as quickly as possible, isn't necessarily good for buyers. Tau's success depends not only in doing a perfect dev before genesis, but also in the dev after genesis, which will be done by the first users (cf. http://www.idni.org/blog/decentralized-democracy) and as more aware participants we'll have there, the more the probability to get better rules of the network to the long run (taking into account that tau will help us to "do order" among all opinions etc. as it is a platform for collaborative dev).
I did give a legal promise to deliver the promised products no matter what, so "not delivering at all" as you mentioned is not an option that I left opened.
Buyer's funds aren't locked by any means. People can liquidate on bittrex (poloniex too soon), indeed low volumes for now, but I guess it'll get more attention with time. We're working on a new website and another new videos, and obviously the crowd out there only begins to understand what it's all about, but there's still a way.
My need to "do good, hurry, deliver" etc. is way beyond even what I promised: my whole reputation as a dev is on that. I can't allow myself to publicly turn into the worst dev ever..
I have a clear incentive to give things the best possible timing. I want the network and its value to grow exactly as the buyers want.
As for proofs I'm not scamming, name it. Which additional proofs can I bring?
As for IPO deadlines, we do want people to have some kind of incentive to buy early, don't we? After Agoras will be ready, it will have the value of the real goods it offers (programmers, servers etc) and not only "value of belief" as in btc for example.

As for 3% being too little, see a few comments above, if we won't sell all coins then we'll practically have more than 3%. Of course it all has to make sense, and we'll reassess the situation in a later stage (later than when tau is ready, still before agoras is ready). Nevertheless, offering a currency with an intrinsic value of markets with skyrocketing demand and size of trillions (as two examples: code-for-money and rent hw) and offering the best alternative by far than any existing alternative, 3% might be a terribly high number.
All in all, those considerations also has to take into account the specific nature of developing tau&agoras after their first version. We develop them altogether and we'll have the code reuse and code-for-money abilities, to mention only two. Also adding/modifying rules is so much easier than with other languages. So I really think that when looking at the big picture, things aren't tuned so bad.

Will be glad for more thoughts/questions.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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March 08, 2016, 12:27:54 PM
 #406

by the way, as many can testify, if you raise an idea which I find good, I never hesitate changing the plans right away in order to do the right thing.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
lordoliver
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March 08, 2016, 12:33:04 PM
 #407

I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to.
If someone bought 1% out of 42M tokens, and we sell only half of the tokens and destroy the other half, then that buyer will hold 2% of total coins after the destruction. So investors know how much they get. The only 'bad' part is that they can get even more.
Predicting when exactly the product will be ready is beyond my abilities. Some scammers, though, are very good in naming dates Wink
How else can we do it better? Please tell.

If you want to talk about scamming: What exactly proofs, that you are not scamming? No date is definitely worse than miscalculating and postponing...

First: There is no need to predict precise release dates, but at least a deadline, where you can be sure, you can deliver "something". And you can set the deadline with a worst case prediction as well.
But even, if you can't make ANY estimate:
There is absolutely no need for the IPO deadline to be at release. Trading the tokens is still possible, so anyone can jump in later.

In the current constellation you have all the cards in your hand (up to 5 million dollar and then still 3%), have no need to do good, no need to hurry, no need even to deliver at all, no need to ... whatever.
We can just sit and wait. And before release our funds are locked with no (or a ridiculous) ROI.

If you ended the IPO and got your percentage, we could be sure, you have to do something and do it good, because your percentage is depending on what you do. The market can choose its own market cap. (Now you choose it more or less, because its too high for a promise).

And just to make you understand, that I really like to grant you a lot of money for your work:
I think 3% is way to less. Maintenance and marketing has to be done by you also after release. Otherwise everything will just die...
But your amount should depend on your doings, not on your promises...

I did give rough estimations several times ("few months" for tau and ~1y for end of presale and agoras ready).
Also consider that a rigid deadline for the sale, as well as finishing the product as quickly as possible, isn't necessarily good for buyers. Tau's success depends not only in doing a perfect dev before genesis, but also in the dev after genesis, which will be done by the first users (cf. http://www.idni.org/blog/decentralized-democracy) and as more aware participants we'll have there, the more the probability to get better rules of the network to the long run (taking into account that tau will help us to "do order" among all opinions etc. as it is a platform for collaborative dev).
I did give a legal promise to deliver the promised products no matter what, so "not delivering at all" as you mentioned is not an option that I left opened.
Buyer's funds aren't locked by any means. People can liquidate on bittrex (poloniex too soon), indeed low volumes for now, but I guess it'll get more attention with time. We're working on a new website and another new videos, and obviously the crowd out there only begins to understand what it's all about, but there's still a way.
My need to "do good, hurry, deliver" etc. is way beyond even what I promised: my whole reputation as a dev is on that. I can't allow myself to publicly turn into the worst dev ever..
I have a clear incentive to give things the best possible timing. I want the network and its value to grow exactly as the buyers want.
As for proofs I'm not scamming, name it. Which additional proofs can I bring?
As for IPO deadlines, we do want people to have some kind of incentive to buy early, don't we? After Agoras will be ready, it will have the value of the real goods it offers (programmers, servers etc) and not only "value of belief" as in btc for example.

As for 3% being too little, see a few comments above, if we won't sell all coins then we'll practically have more than 3%. Of course it all has to make sense, and we'll reassess the situation in a later stage (later than when tau is ready, still before agoras is ready). Nevertheless, offering a currency with an intrinsic value of markets with skyrocketing demand and size of trillions (as two examples: code-for-money and rent hw) and offering the best alternative by far than any existing alternative, 3% might be a terribly high number.
All in all, those considerations also has to take into account the specific nature of developing tau&agoras after their first version. We develop them altogether and we'll have the code reuse and code-for-money abilities, to mention only two. Also adding/modifying rules is so much easier than with other languages. So I really think that when looking at the big picture, things aren't tuned so bad.

Will be glad for more thoughts/questions.

1 year IPO? I am out...
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March 08, 2016, 12:34:42 PM
 #408

1 year IPO? I am out...

only now one can buy in ridiculous prices. the current price won't stay for long. especially after tau is ready

Tau-Chain & Agoras
lordoliver
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March 08, 2016, 12:39:00 PM
 #409

1 year IPO? I am out...

only now one can buy in ridiculous prices. the current price won't stay for long. especially after tau is ready

These "ridculous prices" have a 5 million market cap for a theory. The prices stayed like this for months already. If any interest in the project came, you would flood the market with your coins, that you still have. There is no, i repeat NO use, to invest now.
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March 08, 2016, 12:40:24 PM
 #410

1 year IPO? I am out...

only now one can buy in ridiculous prices. the current price won't stay for long. especially after tau is ready

These "ridculous prices" have a 5 million market cap for a theory. The prices stayed like this for months already. If any interest in the project would come, you would flood the market with your coins, that you still have. There is no, i repeat NO use, to invest now.

the price went up 70% since the public sale began.
and when tau will be ready, things will be very different.
and, 5M is indeed a ridiculous pricing for 100% of future coins.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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March 08, 2016, 12:45:29 PM
 #411

... 5M is indeed a ridiculous pricing for 100% of future coins.

100%? Do you think others will sleep the next year? you can be glad, if you can catch up with others then...

and. the 70% raise comes from BTC raise. It means nothing...
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March 08, 2016, 12:47:21 PM
 #412

... 5M is indeed a ridiculous pricing for 100% of future coins.

100%? Do you think others will sleep the next year? you can be glad, if you can catch up with others then...

and. the 70% raise comes from BTC raise. It means nothing...

why do you keep saying things without checking?
the price was always in USD and not in BTC. began in 10 cent, now 17

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March 08, 2016, 12:53:20 PM
 #413

... 5M is indeed a ridiculous pricing for 100% of future coins.

100%? Do you think others will sleep the next year? you can be glad, if you can catch up with others then...

and. the 70% raise comes from BTC raise. It means nothing...

why do you keep saying things without checking?
the price was always in USD and not in BTC. began in 10 cent, now 17

The whole Crypto market gained the last months. There is nothing you can be proud of. If the market went down, your asset also would crash. Maybe you should research a little about markets in general... if stocks go up, nearly all go up...
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March 08, 2016, 12:55:45 PM
 #414

The whole Crypto market gained the last months. There is nothing you can be proud of. If the market went down, your asset also would crash. Maybe you should research a little about markets in general... if stocks go up, nearly all go up...

I'm not speaking about the price that the market has set. I'm speaking of the price that we sell the tokens at. Which is of course the main supply.
And indeed I'll raise the price again soon. Significantly. With prior notice.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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March 08, 2016, 12:58:05 PM
 #415

The whole Crypto market gained the last months. There is nothing you can be proud of. If the market went down, your asset also would crash. Maybe you should research a little about markets in general... if stocks go up, nearly all go up...

I'm not speaking about the price that the market has set. I'm speaking of the price that we sell the tokens at. Which is of course the main supply.
And indeed I'll raise the price again soon. Significantly. With prior notice.

That doesn't matter, how much you raise the price. If the crypto market gets in trouble, the prices of your asset will drop, unless you don't want to set a up a buy wall...
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March 08, 2016, 12:58:50 PM
 #416

The whole Crypto market gained the last months. There is nothing you can be proud of. If the market went down, your asset also would crash. Maybe you should research a little about markets in general... if stocks go up, nearly all go up...

I'm not speaking about the price that the market has set. I'm speaking of the price that we sell the tokens at. Which is of course the main supply.
And indeed I'll raise the price again soon. Significantly. With prior notice.

That doesn't matter, how much you raise the price. If the crypto market gets in trouble, the prices of your asset will drop, unless you don't want to set a up a buy wall...

last +1.5y our assets never dropped. price always went up. and it has to do with being a ridiculous price

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March 08, 2016, 01:10:37 PM
 #417


last +1.5y our assets never dropped. price always went up. and it has to do with being a ridiculous price

First period noone was able to sell at all. And since its on an exchange all other prices rose way more, so it came along very easily.
If you don't come out with any product or marketing campaign, it will drop at some point. And you are not able to prevent that without setting a buy wall.
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March 08, 2016, 01:11:52 PM
 #418


last +1.5y our assets never dropped. price always went up. and it has to do with being a ridiculous price

First period noone was able to sell at all. And since its on an exchange all other prices rose way more, so it came along very easily.
If you don't come out with any product or marketing campaign, it will drop at some point. And you are not able to prevent that without setting a buy wall.

very little coins were sold on the exchange. the exchange is mainly for buyers to have some liquidity (and as you can see, they HODL). people still prefer to buy directly from me.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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March 08, 2016, 01:29:16 PM
 #419


last +1.5y our assets never dropped. price always went up. and it has to do with being a ridiculous price

First period noone was able to sell at all. And since its on an exchange all other prices rose way more, so it came along very easily.
If you don't come out with any product or marketing campaign, it will drop at some point. And you are not able to prevent that without setting a buy wall.

very little coins were sold on the exchange. the exchange is mainly for buyers to have some liquidity (and as you can see, they HODL). people still prefer to buy directly from me.

yes, thats exactly, why the price can still be at that range, because you did't sell much yet.
If you want to raise it, that means, the the market cap has to raise. And it won't, if there is no buy support. And buy support can come only until a certain point with promises. At some point people have enough...
And if the price on bittrex is lower, than your "private" selling price, that doesn't mean, that you don't sell cheaper on bittrex. This is again a trust force.
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March 08, 2016, 01:35:25 PM
 #420


yes, thats exactly, why the price can still be at that range, because you did't sell much yet.
If you want to raise it, that means, the the market cap has to raise. And it won't, if there is no buy support. And buy support can come only until a certain point with promises. At some point people have enough...
And if the price on bittrex is lower, than your "private" selling price, that doesn't mean, that you don't sell cheaper on bittrex. This is again a trust force.


there is a buy support. people don't buy on bittrex main because they want large quantities that they can't get on bittrex. you have to take into account the extremely small volumes on bittrex so they really say nothing. obviously things will be different with more and better public materials, and especially after tau is ready.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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