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Author Topic: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network  (Read 258523 times)
ohad
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March 31, 2016, 07:12:31 AM
 #541

Please write a detailed guide when new tokens are issued, I suppose we should replace our old tokens in Omni wallet and in Bittrex.

buyers should do absolutely nothing. it's all automatic. both for holders in wallet or in bittrex

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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March 31, 2016, 08:22:54 AM
 #542

Since the undo button still works, ethically correct is to restore the previous state of the presale.
None is the rightful owner to benefit from the fraud. Seller or buyer.
If the case is not solved ethically correct, the thief has not only manage to stole coins but also our confidence.
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March 31, 2016, 09:12:34 AM
 #543

I just spoke with Dor, the person who bought most of the 500K.
He wasn't aware at all to the discussion here as he's getting ready for a travel. Once I told him that there is some criticism here etc., he presented a *great* will to resolve everything. He will do whatever takes.
We have to bear in mind that after all, he's not the only buyer at that low prices, and it's not fair that other buyers will profit and he wouldn't.
Let's raise some ideas how to resolve it in a fair peaceful way, and let's give it a day or two.

Giving the BTC back to the buyers isn't an issue: if decided, I'll pay it fully, as it is all my fault.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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March 31, 2016, 09:36:54 AM
 #544

We have to bear in mind that after all, he's not the only buyer at that low prices, and it's not fair that other buyers will profit and he wouldn't.

If no withdrawals took place and/or no further trades with the stolen BTC, Bittrex can resolve the situation without having to go down that route.  

Does Bittrex still have the BTC?  Please provide additional info.

Let's wait for the west hemisphere to wake up and I'll ask Richie or Bill from bittrex to address the questions here.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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March 31, 2016, 10:06:09 AM
 #545

Please explain, how was possible to steal 500k tokens?

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March 31, 2016, 10:16:51 AM
 #546

story begins at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=950309.msg14368311#msg14368311

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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March 31, 2016, 10:23:13 AM
 #547

will be glad for suggestions for a new token name, so people will distinguish it from the old token as easily as possible

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March 31, 2016, 10:30:16 AM
 #548

will be glad for suggestions for a new token name, so people will distinguish it from the old token as easily as possible


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March 31, 2016, 10:40:14 AM
 #549

We need to return BTC, and "hacked tokens" to remove.

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March 31, 2016, 11:13:13 AM
 #550

some issue prevents creating a new token now (can do it on omni test network only). omni team will fix that tomorrow, they said

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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March 31, 2016, 12:01:48 PM
 #551

It's not fair that other buyers will profit and he wouldn't.
At the same time, it wouldn't be fair to other Agora holders to let the issue unresolved.
Here are the constraints I can see:
1. Dor should keep at least as much profit as other buyers who didn't step up
2. Other Agora holders should be made whole for the accidental dilution of their stake
3. No funding money / sales proceeds should be taken from Tau/Agora project to resolve the matter as this would be counter-productive to everyone.
4. Ideally, Dor should get some reward for his transparency and willingness to arrange the situation,

Here are a few ways we can do that without much drama:

Proposal 1: prorated holding increase
With the help of Dor (log of his trades) and the trade history on Bittrex, we can calculate the average price (let's call it P) of all the trades of other buyers (other than Dor) and the total quantity of these trades (let's call it Q). We don't know how many actual buyers these trades correspond to, so we have to assume that all other trades belong to a single buyer.
(1) can be satisfied by allowing Dor to buy Q tokens at price P per token (minus what he already paid) and return the rest of the tokens to Ohad. If there is a single other buyer, they are even. If there are more (which is very likely the case) Dor gets the best deal of everybody in terms of total notional profit.
(2) following (1) the total dilution is 2*Q. Say the total amount of Tau already sold to investors under the crowdsale is T. The new money mass following accidental dilution is T+2Q. The increase rate of the accidental dilution was therefore R=(T+2Q)/T. Holders can be made whole by multiplying their holdings by R when you issue the new token. It may seem that increasing every buyer's holding equally is the same as doing nothing as it doesn't change the relative holding of every buyer with respect to the current float. But since there is a fixed cap of 42M to the max supply, and later buyers won't have this scaling applied, this still helps compensating earlier buyers in the longer term.
(3) Since only tokens (that would have been destroyed at the end of the crowdsale anyway) are spent by Ohad from the crowdsale fund, this doesn't affect the funding of the project.
(4) IDNI / Agora foundation's own pool of tokens can be used to pay a discretionary reward to Dor for helping. Since these funds would have been issued anyway at the launch of Agora, this doesn't affect the money supply long term for crowdsale buyers.

Proposal 2: prorated sale
Another approach would be to give to everybody the same opportunity to buy tokens at a lower price prorata of their current holdings so that what started as an outage endup being a firesale that will benefit everyone including the project's finances.
We calculate the average price of the transaction. If Dor is keen to cooperate and buy his tokens, P is the average price at which other buyers got their tokens. If Dor is less or not at all keen to cooperate, P is the average price at which every buyer including Dor got their tokens. Now, to calculate cap on how much each holder can buy, we take R = Dor's Recent Purchased Quantity / Dor's total holdings (I understand that Dor holds a lot already, so this ratio shouldn't be that high). If T is the total current supply of tokens sold in the crowdsale, you start a sale for maximum R * T tokens. Each agora holder can buy up to R * balance of his address at price P. You will need to make a snapshot at a specific date and use balances in the snapshot. Holders must move their funds to a Omni wallet before the snapshot. Additional tokens are to be sent at the same address as the one used to calculate the cap to avoid cheating.  You should put a time limit on the offer, long enough for people who care to have the time to take notice.
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March 31, 2016, 01:18:12 PM
 #552

Can someone please explain to me in a nice concise paragraph what just happened? I have read the last few pages and I don't understand what's happening. Who scammed ohad?

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rocanonz
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March 31, 2016, 03:05:41 PM
 #553

Again, if the trade has been done on illegitimate terms and has been done so. The trade becomes null.
IF the trade is reversible, buyers must be refunded 1:1. Nothing less, nothing more.
IF the trade is not reversible then ... But let's see.
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March 31, 2016, 03:25:20 PM
 #554

Again, if the trade has been done on illegitimate terms and has been done so. The trade becomes null.
IF the trade is reversible, buyers must be refunded 1:1. Nothing less, nothing more.
IF the trade is not reversible then ... But let's see.

Sorry I don't understand it. Everyone here is screaming for decentralization but not even we here are able to handle it. There has to be a insurance for those things, that will buy the tokens back. That is the only legitimate way. If I steal something from your house the insurance will pay as well, if you have one. Of course the police will try to find it. But in a completely decentralized system there is no tracking possible. It is simply gone. So you have to pay more attention or have an insurance. If not, you are fucked!
It is simply luck, that you could hold back the selling of all.

BTW: in this case its really ridiculous. Just picture a scenario, where the "scammer" dumped all. Who is fucked more? We or ohad?
Repeatedly: This presale is taking way too long and it should have ended already.
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March 31, 2016, 03:45:53 PM
 #555

There is no way to reverse the trades.  By the time we were notified, the coins were dumped and the BTC had been withdrawn

thanks,
richie@bittrex

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March 31, 2016, 03:51:50 PM
 #556

I just created a new token called "IDNI Agoras" (asset id 58). Same amount. The IDNI prefix should indicate that these are the formal tokens.
The new tokens aren't distributed yet, we'll begin distribute it once the discussion converges. The issuer address is the same: 14gF3Up7wdRdkxAL4GgQLdnM8CThgDUSHR

So, on omni wallets, people would see both tokens: Agoras and IDNI Agoras. Only "IDNI Agoras" will take place, while "Agoras Tokens" (asset id 35) becomes defunct.

That all said for omni wallets only. Be careful when you send or receive tokens, to use only the new ones. Bittrex will do the substitution automatically.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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March 31, 2016, 03:56:38 PM
 #557


Proposal 1: prorated holding increase
With the help of Dor (log of his trades) and the trade history on Bittrex, we can calculate the average price (let's call it P) of all the trades of other buyers (other than Dor) and the total quantity of these trades (let's call it Q). We don't know how many actual buyers these trades correspond to, so we have to assume that all other trades belong to a single buyer.
(1) can be satisfied by allowing Dor to buy Q tokens at price P per token (minus what he already paid) and return the rest of the tokens to Ohad. If there is a single other buyer, they are even. If there are more (which is very likely the case) Dor gets the best deal of everybody in terms of total notional profit.
(2) following (1) the total dilution is 2*Q. Say the total amount of Tau already sold to investors under the crowdsale is T. The new money mass following accidental dilution is T+2Q. The increase rate of the accidental dilution was therefore R=(T+2Q)/T. Holders can be made whole by multiplying their holdings by R when you issue the new token. It may seem that increasing every buyer's holding equally is the same as doing nothing as it doesn't change the relative holding of every buyer with respect to the current float. But since there is a fixed cap of 42M to the max supply, and later buyers won't have this scaling applied, this still helps compensating earlier buyers in the longer term.
(3) Since only tokens (that would have been destroyed at the end of the crowdsale anyway) are spent by Ohad from the crowdsale fund, this doesn't affect the funding of the project.
(4) IDNI / Agora foundation's own pool of tokens can be used to pay a discretionary reward to Dor for helping. Since these funds would have been issued anyway at the launch of Agora, this doesn't affect the money supply long term for crowdsale buyers.


Answering to myself. An even simpler way to compensate for the dilution is simply to decrease the max supply.
So in (2) instead of multiplying everyone's holding by R=(T+2Q)/T, Ohad can simply divide the max supply down to S = 42M / R.
The huge advantage of that is that the new token can be distributed 1:1, which will avoid having to ask (and trust) the exchange to dispatch properly the extra funds to its users. From an economoic perspective, the result in terms of relative weight of each holder is exactly the same.
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March 31, 2016, 03:59:09 PM
 #558

I just created a new token called "IDNI Agoras" (asset id 58). Same amount.
Hmmm. I was just proposing that you issue less to offset for the dilution.
Nevermind, you can always destroy some of the funds once we decide what's the best way to proceed.
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March 31, 2016, 04:02:53 PM
 #559

I just created a new token called "IDNI Agoras" (asset id 58). Same amount.
Hmmm. I was just proposing that you issue less to offset for the dilution.
Nevermind, you can always destroy some of the funds once we decide what's the best way to proceed.

sure, that's no problem.

Tau-Chain & Agoras
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March 31, 2016, 04:03:29 PM
 #560

How much is this prank gonna cost us?
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