Of course, I support Bitcoinica and the concept of leveraged speculating/hedging. We need more of them (regulated and unregulated so you can pick your flavour). You may not see it but large entities are planning on entering the bitcoin economy in a major way; margin exchanges allow them to hedge their currency exposure without having to sell out of their BTC positions.
A regulated entity does not always inspire trust. Just look at the poor MF Global customers.
I will just borrow the words from someone else: "It is mathematically impossible to get high leverage to work in a thin market." Until we have a much larger market, high leverage is absolutely nonsensical and will always lead to huge failures. |
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Nothing against the original Bitcoinica people but your comment is 100% on the money. A BTC-only margin exchange would not have had any regulation requirements. cryptoanarchist has it right --- Compliance is antithetical to bitcoin and it will be used against those that participate.
Then who wrote this article to promote this bucket shop just a few weeks ago: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2012/04/21/bitcoinica-registers-in-new-zealand-for-bitcoin-margin-trading/I was very disappointed to see both you and Max Keiser praising it. Bitcoinica was always a disaster waiting to happen just like MyBitcoin(ica), and any high leverage Bitcoin bucket shop will be. It should be shunned, not promoted just like MyBitcoin should have been since the risk is incalculable. |
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Sorry, what poll? I deleted nothing recently.
Also, communication via PM would be appreciated.
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What we know is that zhoutong has announced he will be buying 18.5k BTC. So I expect someone will ramp up the price and force them to buy back at a nice premium while selling to them at a profit.
Another factor is that the hackers are in posession of the Bitcoinica database with everyone’s present and past positions. Perhaps they will try and inflict the maximum pain upon the collective Bitcoinica gambler positions.
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I say Bears will experience an unpleasant surprise.  |
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Damn, it seems I voted "By the end of the first week of February 2012." Who won?! (This needed to be necroed) - Likely we will either shut down the platform or re-develop entirely (which will take months instead of days).
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But simply, I gave up my sole ownership a long time ago, even before the Linode hack.
You want to tell us Bitcoinica is one of the most legit Bitcoin businesses while you leave its ownership in the shadows for a "long time" (months?!) and deceive us all? I always thought you were the sole owner, and I thought Intersango only very recently took over. This was public knowledge a long, long time ago. Surprised to hear this, where was a statement on this made by zhoutong/Bitcoinica? |
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But simply, I gave up my sole ownership a long time ago, even before the Linode hack.
You want to tell us Bitcoinica is one of the most legit Bitcoin businesses while you leave its ownership in the shadows for a "long time" (months?!) and deceive us all? I always thought you were the sole owner, and I thought Intersango only very recently took over. |
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You forgot to answer one question. - It's more serious than we thought. We need some additional time to come up with a
Important Disclaimer: I'm not a partner of Bitcoinica LP after the corporate reorganisation. Therefore, I have no financial obligation in this matter as I'm only an employee of Bitcoinica LP responsible for daily operations (no shares, no voting). However, I'll do my best with the team to resolve this problem as quickly as possible and minimize the impact for the community. I appreciate your patience and understanding.
What exactly is more serious? Details? |
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- It's more serious than we thought. We need some additional time to come up with a
Important Disclaimer: I'm not a partner of Bitcoinica LP after the corporate reorganisation. Therefore, I have no financial obligation in this matter as I'm only an employee of Bitcoinica LP responsible for daily operations (no shares, no voting). However, I'll do my best with the team to resolve this problem as quickly as possible and minimize the impact for the community. I appreciate your patience and understanding.
What exactly is more serious? Details? Important Disclaimer: I'm not a partner of Bitcoinica LP after the corporate reorganisation. Therefore, I have no financial obligation in this matter as I'm only an employee of Bitcoinica LP responsible for daily operations (no shares, no voting). However, I'll do my best with the team to resolve this problem as quickly as possible and minimize the impact for the community. I appreciate your patience and understanding.
Wow, so the Intersango guys are left holding the bag for your incompetence? That was a clever move. Not sure how they got suckered into this deal before they took over everything. |
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This is why. You guys completely ignore the magnitude of this, and completely ignore that Bitcoin is an unestablished currency. Being an unestablished currency, it needs a positive sum game far greater than those of established ones to ever hope to compete. Systematically allocating wealth from wealth creators to wealth destroyers as is being done in the Bitcoin world is unsustainable if Bitcoin is to have any value, since it represents a negative sum game in which wealth is continuosly destroyed.
Relax. It is geek currency, hackers are geeks. So they get their share one way or another. In long run it is utterly immaterial for Bitcoin how initial distribution/emission of money is done and who are "early adopters". Actually, the quicker "early adopter" lion share of Bitcoin is diluted, the better. Vladimir, I have the biggest respect for you and cypherdoc, and because of this it amazes me how you guys only can be so oblivious to the social dynamics at play here. If Bitcoin keeps destroying value instead of creating value, the market will simply drop it. Not even to mention the image problems Bitcoin already has with anyone who is not already a Bitcoiner (couple ten k guys). We cannot continue at this rate and transfer hard earned Bitcoins from market participants to hackers, scammers and leeches forever expecting Bitcoin to have any value. You say it is transferred from early adopters to geeks, but this has not at all been true lately. The only example I know of would be allinvain with his 25k coins if his report was true. Consider also the cost of securing Bitcoins (this substracts from BTC value) and the barrier of entry it creates. I say these continuous gigantic (in terms of money supply %) thefts from large Bitcoin sites do hurt Bitcoin over the long run. I am even thinking that this could be a similar attack to what happened with MtGox and all the other sites in summer/fall because MtGox and GLBSE were also targeted the past week. Which $$$ oriented hacker would redirect the site to Meatspin instead of a wallet.dat stealer or other malware? Ie possibly a coordinated attack on all infrastructure by someone who doesn’t like Bitcoin. Disclosure: I hold Bitcoins and had no funds at Bitcoinica. |
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Calling Bitcoinica a scam after they get robbed is like calling a woman a whore after getting raped.
The woman got raped for the second time now at the same place at the same nighttime wearing the same clothes. Only this time she gets raped by 1 guy, not 3. I’m sure a rape victim would be much more careful in the future. I think this is the problem many people have here. |
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How does this devalue Bitcoins?
Bicycles get stolen at a massive rate, probably much higher percentage wise than Bitcoins. Yet this does not devalue bicycles.
It affects Bitcoin more than the USD because the amount of BTC stolen would equal a gigantic sum of USD when you compare the money supplies. Currently 18k BTC is 0.2% (ONE FIVE HUNDREDTH OF THE BITCOIN ECONOMY!) of the total Bitcoins, which would equal 2 trillion USD if you take the M2 money supply (someone correct me if my math is wrong) Oh, and don’t forget, the US Dollar is actually an established currency and does not try to recruit new users. Your analogy is faulty.
This is why. You guys completely ignore the magnitude of this, and completely ignore that Bitcoin is an unestablished currency. Being an unestablished currency, it needs a positive sum game far greater than those of established ones to ever hope to compete. Systematically allocating wealth from wealth creators to wealth destroyers as is being done in the Bitcoin world is unsustainable if Bitcoin is to have any value, since it represents a negative sum game in which wealth is continuosly destroyed. |
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I am angry that our name is being dragged through the mud for something we had no part in.
According to your words, you guys did receive Bitcoinica shares as part of the new collaboration. I understand though that it’s not your guys fault, just pointing out that you suffer from it financially since you are stakeholders. |
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Please stop bullshiting, what you says doesn't make any sense.
Bitcoinica got hacked, so what, it happens all the time to lots of compagny. I don't see how this devalues bitcoin, I don't see how bitcoinica activities devalues bitcoin, and... fuck I don't understand your points.
If ebay get hacked that devalues dollars?
I see you must be quite new to Bitcoin. Have you experienced what happened when MyBitcoin was allegedly robbed? MtGox? Bitcoin7? Hell, I don’t even know many of them anymore. It affects Bitcoin more than the USD because the amount of BTC stolen would equal a gigantic sum of USD when you compare the money supplies. Currently 18k BTC is 0.2% ( ONE FIVE HUNDREDTH OF THE BITCOIN ECONOMY!) of the total Bitcoins, which would equal 2 trillion USD if you take the M2 money supply (someone correct me if my math is wrong) Oh, and don’t forget, the US Dollar is actually an established currency and does not try to recruit new users. Your analogy is faulty. |
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I am not accusing BTC-E of commiting any hacks. The only thing I am claiming is that it is interesting there were Bitcoins offered for sale there very cheaply right after the previous 45k Bitcoinica hack for quite a while.
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the theft won't "devalue" Bitcoins. even if the thief sells it's just another buying opportunity and might cause a temporary dip in the price. but that's assuming he wants to sell. he could be long term speculator like the rest of us hoping the price goes to $100 before he unloads. at the very least it will take him time to sell to get the right price and there's also the possibility mtgox intervenes once again. the only one's who will take a loss here are Zhou and possibly some of his customers.
But of course it will, doc, even if they buy the Bitcoins back at market! Hackers are not speculators, just think about every hack that has happened in Bitcoin’s history and the dumping that followed therafter (it is not as easy anymore since Gox collaborates to track stolen coins, but they just arbitrage it from a different exchange, and I suspect it is usually BTC-E.com). In addition, there is the breach of confidence that this currency is perhaps nothing but a collective subsidy to hackers. |
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Bad words? I also refuse to be politically correct to such a platform that is set to ruin people by having them zhoutonged and ruins us collectivelly by having stupid people basically give hackers money, devaluing Bitcoins not only in a USD, but in a wealth creating sense, since if we keep doing this shit, Bitcoin is actually a negative sum game. I doubt we are creating wealth at a faster rate than we are destroying it by giving thieves money.
OK, enough of my rants. Sorry.
edit: @zhoutong
Forgot about that. That helps actually. Still leaves the "loss of confidence" and ethical issues, though. We just can’t continue at this rate.
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I have repeatedly told people that Bitcoinica is a scam and that Bitcoinica staff should be banned from the forums.
Maybe now people will actually listen.
Bitcoinica is a regulated entity, verifiable by government records. We are one of the most legitimate businesses in Bitcoin community, by any standard. I second that, and vouch for Zhou and the Bitcoinica team. I refuse to give people who donate 64k BTC to hackers and devalue all of our Bitcoins any credence. Hopefully the reward will attract even more hackers! |
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Great news! I am pleased to know that the Bitcoin community continues funding hackers and scammers in a big way. Bitcoin creates so much wealth for everyone of us. Last time was 45k BTC though, this time it’s only 18.5k, we’ve got to do better.  Continue using a site to get g zhoutonged and give your money to hackers to devalue your Bitcoins, please! |
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