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1701  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: December 26, 2013, 06:34:21 PM
US homes usually have one 240V socket IIRC but I'm not sure what the amperage is for the socket.

There really isn't a "usually" for US houses as except for newer 'track home' communities there is a huge variety in overall electrical service to the home as well as its inside wiring.  About the only thing that I believe would be pretty standard from coast to coast here is that residential service drops are 240V single phase.  What happens from there is anyone's guess depending on location, age, and homeowner's needs for 240V circuits for many kitchen appliances, clothing washer/dryer, water heater, computers, heavy tools like welders, .......

I wired new homes in Arizona back in the early 1970's.  Typically you'd run a couple of 12 gauge 20 amp single phase circuits to the kitchen with two duplex outlets on each, other rooms would get 14 gauge 15 amps with maybe 2 duplex outlets and maybe an overhead light but perhaps the overhead lights were on a separate circuit, my memory is hazy.  There would be 2 phase to the kitchen for an electric stove, and 2 phase to the washing machine area for the dryer.  I don't recall what those breakers were rated at but one could look in the breaker box and see.  200 amp service max total I think.

I live in a mobile home.  This is a hothouse in the summer.  I have a window AC in the living room with ducting that puts the air into the bedroom so it's a bit more quiet.  I have another AC that I mounted thru the living room wall for cooling the room but that usually isn't enough on hot days or if I'm running on my treadmill in the living room watching TV in the summer so I have a portable darlek-type (similar to a Dr. Who darlek) in the living room to pick up the slack.  There had been a single outlet on that side for the treadmill, the wall mounted AC and the portable AC so for a while I was running extension cords when on the treadmill but finally got around to putting in two additional 14-2 Romex lines each having a 15 amp breaker.  Right now I'm running a Merc upgraded to a Saturn on the other side of the room along with various laptops, a Blade, a Jalapeno and a few USB BEs in TPlink USB hubs as well as my main system.  I plan to dedicate one of those new 15 amp circuits to the Neptune and return to an extension cord for the treadmill, that to another room and circuit.   I may put all my miners into an enclosure of Styrofoam, the enclosure being fed by ducting from an AC, the AC having the fan on continually but the compressor switched by a thermal control device within the enclosure.  That would allow filtering the air.  A plus when one's dog rolls in the red Georgia dirt then scratches after he gets back in the house putting a cloud of dust into the air.

What the power supply situation turns out to be is significant.  If they include a supply, which would be nice saving us money and bother, will it be convertible 115/220?  If so I could run 14-3 to the pair of 14-2 circuits I put in for the AC & treadmill, and get 230VAC to any kind of a connector I want to use.
1702  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: December 26, 2013, 03:33:06 AM
PSU for Neptune:

30 % less power consumption, mean 0,7 Watt per GigaHash/s, mean 3000 * 0,7 = 2100 Watt for one Neptune ! Huh

2 x PSU or how will we power on the neptune?

who knows.

maybe a PSU will be included or, more likely, they'll give you a pointer on what upo need to buy.  

I'm sure engineering would like nothing better to design their own power supply into the Neptune instead of contending with the vagaries of all manufacturers and models.
1703  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: December 25, 2013, 08:41:45 PM
problem:

november KNC doesn't mine.   all 4 ASICs register a temp of around 21C

hashes show at zero

the control panel is working fine. login with a browser. it was working before.  after hashing stopped i tried uploading the '99' november firmware again.  still no hashing.

considering that the control panel works, could it be a bad beaglebone, or a different problem?

Sounds like it could be a failed PSU to me - the 12V rail gone maybe ?

The stuff you mention working (BBB) runs off the 5V rail.

Good luck and Merry Christmas.


Thanks!  At first i did notice the fans weren't spinning no the november jupiter so i tried the 1200 watt thermaltake PSU on an october jupiter and the jupiters fans wouldn't spin. the thing is when i plugged in the PSU  (1000 watt coolermaster) from the october jupiter into the november jupiter, the fans spun, but with the same result(each asic at 21C but no hashing).

yes KNC recommends a 1200watt PSU for a november unit but a 1000 watt PSU should at least make it start hashing ?  

Have you tried taking a needlenose or tweezers and closing the barrels of the molex 4 pin so they're more snug on the pins?
1704  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: December 23, 2013, 04:42:11 PM

Thanks.
How many of these should I see in the list?

  323 root      2148 S    udhcpc -b -x hostname Jupiter-1 eth0
14003 root      2152 S    grep dhcp
29312 root      2148 S    udhcpc -b -x hostname Jupiter-1 eth0


I think that one is enough. you should kill the one with the lower pid. But i'd prefer if you check it with someone else that is using the dhcp network settings.

usually there's only one dhclient for each network interface. If I were you I would simply reboot the miner and check how many udhcpc will be running.

but i'd dare to say that you could do this the next time a network glitch appear, this way you could use the downtime to test this solution without wasting mining time.

Thank you. I posted my problem at my ISP forum and someone suggested a possible solution where Static IP addresses would not get changed by the router - I should set Static IP addresses that are not in the DHCP pool - anything below .64:

https://i.imgur.com/3giMtIs.png

so you have set a static IP that belongs to your dhcp address pool, right?

the fact is that if you did not have any dhcp client hanging around there's no way that the BBB let the dhcp server change its own static ip address.

now that I've checked better /www/pages/cgi-bin/network.cgi  I've found that there's also an avhai deamon involved... 
 

Yes, before when I tried using the Static way. But once in a while the IP address of a random Jupiter would change and so I decided to go the other route, which was manually editing the DHCP table via telnet - I just gave my miners Indefinite lease time on their IP addresses. Fast forward to 2 days ago, when all of them started to disappear from my network all of a sudden.
If it happens again I will just set them Static again, but outside the DHCP pool range.

Spitballing here, high speed routers and switches use a complex signal to get the speed.  Perhaps there's noise on your AC line that gets thru to your switch.  If the Jupiters disconnect and other equipment doesn't then it might be as a result of the Jupiter signal quality.  Are your Jupiters open or closed?  Have your tried adding additional cooling to the controller boards and BBBs?  Is something turning on in the area around the time the Jupiters show connection difficulties?
1705  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: December 23, 2013, 03:59:28 AM
Last week I challenged anyone who pre-ordered a knobtune to show me their numbers, their data, their projections, based on realistic difficulty, on why this was a sound investment? You know, some FACTS.

No takers. It's obvious most people gambled and ordered blindly, based on the faulty image of knc being a "good" company.

Here's the way I see it:

Imagine you could loan someone bitcoin with the option of being paid back in USD at the value bitcoin was on the day you loaned it or you could be slowly paid back about the same number of bitcoins you loaned them sometime in the future. Unless you knew for sure that bitcoin price was going to increase, you would loan the bitcoins and try to guarantee yourself against ending up with less than you started with. In fact, I would make this deal even if the bitcoin return option was significantly less than what I loaned if the value of bitcoin skyrocketed.

Obviously, if the value of bitcoin skyrocketed, one would have done better by simply buying and holding. If I knew the future and knew that bitcoin would significantly increase in value, I would buy and hold.

By now, you should have realized that pre-ording a miner with the promise of USD refund at any time prior to manufacturing is the exact same scenario. Assuming you could get about the same number of bitcoins back as you spent, it's an attractive offer and many will see it as such.

Now the fun part - Trying to guess the future difficulty! I predict that difficulty will be between 10 and 15 billion when the Neptunes ship (based on 30% increase per jump - with the increase decreasing by 3% on each adjustment). I also speculate that the power requirements will be higher than advertised and will consume 0.8 W/GH.

With these numbers, I expect a Neptune to generate 7.5 BTC before it stops being profitable. I had no illusions about receiving more BTC than the ~12/each I spent. And yet I still bought three.

Maybe I'll get lucky and KnC will deliver Neptunes that are more powerful than advertised, or arrive sooner than expected, or BTC will skyrocket in value. One of more of these hopes needs to happen for the Neptune to be profitable. The good news is that I have a few months to see what happens before I have to make a choice about a refund. Of course, I'll likely be able to sell the miner for a considerable amount regardless.

Other possible risks include::
  • KnC decides to stop honoring refunds
  • BTC value plummets after receiving the miner
  • Difficulty is significantly higher than I predict
  • Delivery is significantly later than hoped

Aren't we all going to feel guilty when time goes by, difficulty goes sky high, Bitcoin never tops the value of an ounce of gold in the next few months, the math tells us then as KNC prepares to ship that we'll never make back ROI and we all request refunds.
1706  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: December 22, 2013, 07:32:52 PM
and i am not crying about GHash
iam crying about cores and errors and beagleboards

Did you try switching pools? I had over 10% hardware errors (as reported by bertmod) and many cores disabling. After I switched from Eligius it went down to 1.2% with no cores disabling. Many people have reported similar findings.

That was the entire point the HW errors were known to be on Eligius. They weren't present on other pools like BTCGuild. We used the miner I had taken to the states and pointed them at both. We had ~14% on Eligius, and ~1.5% on BTCGuild with the same device. Whizzkid had known about this and was trying to solve the issue, we sent him a box to do so, in the end one of our software engineers had an idea he wanted to try and did so over the weekend.

I see what you are saying about hardware errors but how does the return compare.  Anyone with two similar miners tried pointing one at Eligius and the other elsewhere that reports fewer HW errors and see if the lower HW rate actually effectively means anything?  I was in Walmart the other day, looked at two large packages of toilet paper and wondered which was cheaper.  I pretty much knew but took out my cellphone/calculator and did the math.  The shelf label on one said like 7.7cents per unit cost and the other 6.6 cents per unit cost while doing the math shows one was 77cents per roll and the other 66 cents per roll.  So, the labels were off by an order of magnitude unless there are only 10 sheets of paper per roll and that isn't the case.  Is what's being reported accurate?
1707  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: December 20, 2013, 03:07:26 PM
Found my third block with my Oct Jup on Eligius today  Grin

Didn't find one with my Nov Jup on Slush's till now  Sad

stupid question, but what does it mean if you find a block? do you get most of the btc?

The pool gets the reward from all the blocks found by the members. The pool income is then payed to the members proportional to their delivered shares.


anyone knows how it works on slush? on the account page there is a "blocks found" box... I assume that would toggle to 1 if I found a block (even thou I'd have to 'share' it grrrr)



On the ...oin.cz/accounts/profile/ webpage which shows  your workers, the worker will have a 1 under Found Blocks and beneath the list of workers you'll see Found Blocks by all your workers by block number.
1708  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Bitcoin-QT, reindex or build all new blockchain on: December 19, 2013, 12:24:14 AM
Went to backup my wallet.  Had difficulty getting it saved to a USB drive.  Ended up copying it as root.  That was two days ago.  Have been on terminal rather than KDE so didn't notice the client wasn't keeping up to date.  Today it was 2 day behind when I went back to KDE.  It didn't catch up.  I checked the debug log and was getting a lot of orphaned blocks.

I deleted peers.dat but that didn't help.

I've started reindexing, currently 123 weeks behind.  I wonder if I'm making a mistake and should instead rebuild the blockchain.  I'm wondering if when I get to 2 days behind I'll start running into the orphaned blocks problem again.

Woke up this morning to 78 weeks behind but a large notification System error: Database corrupted.

Just looked in my ./.bitcoin directory and see a ./.lock file from about the past.  Deleted it but still get Database corrupted.

Rebooted, restarted Bitcoin-QT, am now at 78 weeks behind and apparently sync'ing.  So, the hidden file ./.lock, located with ls -la, may have been the bug.  Presently at 77 weeks behind.  Wish I had found that lock file before commencing a reindex.....

reindex failed.  Have deleted all files except wallet.dat, which has coins, and restarted building the blockchain.

Well, that failed.  At 64 weeks behind I got a System error: Database corrupted.  How can that be?  The only file left was the wallet.dat, including all the subdirectories.

Guess I'll have to go to a backup wallet.dat and try building with that.

Wonder if it could be the hard drive.  Previously the hard drive was two partitions.  I used gparted to grow the volume to double the partition size.  Right now it's only showing usage of 13%.

debug.log says CDB() : can't open database file wallet.dat, error 2       bitcoin in a Runaway exception

removed the lock, killed the process, ran bitcoind -salvagewallet and am retrying

Okay, so I then restarted Bitcoin-QT with the -salvagewallet switch.  It loaded the wallet.dat file, verified blocks, rescanned, and opened at 64 weeks behind.  This isn't a backup wallet it's the original.  It has restarted building the blockchain at the point it had come up with the wallet.dat error 2.

Oh well, somehow it started building a new wallet and the contents changed from unconfirmed some btc to unconfirmed 0.00btc but it is down to 55 weeks.  Time to swap the wallet.dat out for a backup copy and start again is my guess.  ...muddling my way thru.

loading block index...
verifying blocks...
loading wallet...
rescanning....
done...
synchronizing 55 weeks behind and showing transaction history and unconfirmed balance....now if it gets to present day eventually all well and good.


So, I've learned that if a backup wallet.dat is put into the bitcoin directory and Bitcoin-QT restarted, a whole new blockchain isn't downloaded, all that happens is that the blockchain is rescanned which is much quicker than downloading the blockchain.  This makes cold storage seem a more reasonable option.

-----

Odd.  Up in the middle of the night and checked the progression of the blockchain.  It was okay but the Ubuntu had a message displayed about some gnome applet failing to load and did I want to delete it.  I just ignored the message and went back to bed.  This morning the desktop was clear, no Bitcoin-QT but also no taskbar.  I rebooted and Bitcoin-QT came up with a corrupt wallet message.  Killed the Bitcoin-QT, deleted the wallet.dat, deleted the peers.dat (the last messages in the debug.log were regarding something like repeated flushing of peers.dat), removed the lock file and replaced the wallet.dat with the backup copy from earlier this month.  At this point ps aux could find no instance of Bitcoin and the lock file had been removed.  Rebooting should not have restarted Bitcoin-QT as it was shut down and not running.  So, I rebooted and let things settle after logging in.  Low and behold an instance of Bitcoin-QT did open, the wallet had the proper amount of btc as unconfirmed, and blockchain building recommenced and is ongoing now.

Some hours later it has again come up with database corrupted.  Will try with a new wallet so see if the error is introduced by the wallet.dat.

--------------------

Blockchain download is so slow I'm wondering if it's de facto depreciated.

--------------------

Got down to 30 weeks, saw the post to get the daily blockchain and put it in the blocks directory after deleting as directed and reindexing, then found reindexing was really no quicker than downloading bootstrap.dat file and loading from that.  But in deleting and restarting I put myself back and seem to be redoing work.  It is slow going.  *Big mistake deleting an existing blockchain.*
1709  Bitcoin / Group buys / Re: [OPEN IN-STOCK] batch #33 0.38 btc per Blade, 49-port HUBS, backplanes on: December 18, 2013, 08:26:55 PM
Hi Canary, the replacement Blade has arrived.  It is one of the new versions, V2.001 I believe not having the replaceable fuse nor reset headers, in an unopened static proof envelop.

The Blade, although showing activity on the RJ45 port is not appearing on the network.  I've run nmap 192.168.1.* and have mapped every device on my local network including ports open.  It would seem like it might have been setup with some other network, e.g. 192.168.0.1 or something else.

I have reset the device by putting pins in the factory reset and ground (ground being the center pin between factory reset and reset) and an alligator clip across the pins and awakened the miner from off, left on for 30 seconds, turned off, removed the pins and replaced the cat5 cable, restarted, and still no report of its existence on 192.168.1.0.  I have tried http://192.168.1.254:8000 repeatedly without results.

I am supplying 11.9vdc to the Blade.

What do you suggest?

soy


Okay, I have it on nmap now.  It is a brand new cat5 cable so I knew it wasn't that.  Two or three days ago two 8 port high speed switches arrived from the Orient.  They had wall warts for Europe but I'm using an adapter and it's working for a raspberry pi I use for stratum.  I just swapped the cable to an older 8 port TP-Link switch and now I see the Blade.  

Efficiency is coming up slowly but the pool, which was showing 1 week 5 days for the last share for this worker, is now showing shares.  Thanks.

I note I have modified my Blade stand.  Previously the Blade was standing RTV'd in slots in two PVC pipes and a pair of 120mm fans blowing on the heatsink from a distance of about 1½", as well as a room fan some distance away blowing at the miner.  Now I lay the two 120mm fans down on a metal bar rack having open air.  The fans are attached to one another and at one end two PVC are vertical.  On the vertical PVC I have another fan, something like an 80mm, on a down angle.  I place the miner on top of the two 120mm fans, heatsink down and the 80mm fan blows across the Blade top.

Up to 92.10% and rising.  I'm a happy customer.
1710  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: "Error opening block database. Do you want to rebuild the block database now?" on: December 18, 2013, 02:48:09 PM
Found a dated hidden ./.lock file in the ./.bitcoin directory.  Was getting a Corrupted Database error.  Deleted the hidden file, rebooted, restarted Bitcoin-QT, had started a reindexing and the client is building from where the reindexing had stopped.  Seems okay.
1711  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Bitcoin-QT, reindex or build all new blockchain on: December 18, 2013, 02:44:42 PM
Went to backup my wallet.  Had difficulty getting it saved to a USB drive.  Ended up copying it as root.  That was two days ago.  Have been on terminal rather than KDE so didn't notice the client wasn't keeping up to date.  Today it was 2 day behind when I went back to KDE.  It didn't catch up.  I checked the debug log and was getting a lot of orphaned blocks.

I deleted peers.dat but that didn't help.

I've started reindexing, currently 123 weeks behind.  I wonder if I'm making a mistake and should instead rebuild the blockchain.  I'm wondering if when I get to 2 days behind I'll start running into the orphaned blocks problem again.

Woke up this morning to 78 weeks behind but a large notification System error: Database corrupted.

Just looked in my ./.bitcoin directory and see a ./.lock file from about the past.  Deleted it but still get Database corrupted.

Rebooted, restarted Bitcoin-QT, am now at 78 weeks behind and apparently sync'ing.  So, the hidden file ./.lock, located with ls -la, may have been the bug.  Presently at 77 weeks behind.  Wish I had found that lock file before commencing a reindex.....

reindex failed.  Have deleted all files except wallet.dat, which has coins, and restarted building the blockchain.
1712  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Bitcoin-QT, reindex or build all new blockchain on: December 18, 2013, 03:59:10 AM
Went to backup my wallet.  Had difficulty getting it saved to a USB drive.  Ended up copying it as root.  That was two days ago.  Have been on terminal rather than KDE so didn't notice the client wasn't keeping up to date.  Today it was 2 day behind when I went back to KDE.  It didn't catch up.  I checked the debug log and was getting a lot of orphaned blocks.

I deleted peers.dat but that didn't help.

I've started reindexing, currently 123 weeks behind.  I wonder if I'm making a mistake and should instead rebuild the blockchain.  I'm wondering if when I get to 2 days behind I'll start running into the orphaned blocks problem again.
1713  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: December 17, 2013, 07:36:26 PM
So I have one november jupiter that refuses to stay on. Tried each individual ASIC separately, no dice, tried swapping the 1500w EVGA with a 860W Corsair, corsair didnt even turn it on (fans spun up but BBB no lights). Anyone got any ideas?

I'd guess there's a ribbon cable plugged backwards to the controller board possible or faulty cabling to the BBB.

Checked all the cables, ribbon and PCiE- no dice.
Have you tried swapping BBB's with another unit?
Auto-Salvage style testing.....   swap parts 'till you find it...


I'm off to pick up my new-used '05 accord from BTC earnings.....   Yipppeeeeeee!
(BTC trading on Bitstamp)


My Merc with upgrade module is going to pay for today's root canal.
1714  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: December 17, 2013, 07:33:49 PM
So I have one november jupiter that refuses to stay on. Tried each individual ASIC separately, no dice, tried swapping the 1500w EVGA with a 860W Corsair, corsair didnt even turn it on (fans spun up but BBB no lights). Anyone got any ideas?

I'd guess there's a ribbon cable plugged backwards to the controller board possible or faulty cabling to the BBB.

Checked all the cables, ribbon and PCiE- no dice.

Okay, wrote that after returning from the dentist and the numbness is now almost gone.  Here's what I would do: I'd disconnect all ASIC modules and only fire up the BBB and that without ribbon cables.  I'd look for the front fans running.  I'd look for the bright white light and both the red and green LEDs lit, I'd look for lights on the RJ45 ethernet socket,  then I'd look for the red LED to go out and the green stay on indicating you have a connection.  Log in to the miner web page.

If you can get those things all well and good.  Get that first.  If you can't, then I'd track down my 5 volts.  Get some information on the Beagle Board Black and find where you can measure the 5v on the board.  Check that there isn't a crack in the solder at the controller board 4 pin molex connector.  Just remembered, I had an iffy connection at the 4 pin, squeezed the barrels a little for better grasp of the pins and fewer glitches.

1715  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: December 17, 2013, 12:30:05 PM
So I have one november jupiter that refuses to stay on. Tried each individual ASIC separately, no dice, tried swapping the 1500w EVGA with a 860W Corsair, corsair didnt even turn it on (fans spun up but BBB no lights). Anyone got any ideas?

I'd guess there's a ribbon cable plugged backwards to the controller board possible or faulty cabling to the BBB.
1716  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: USA capital gains on: December 17, 2013, 12:25:06 AM
I see Norway has decided Bitcoin is an asset not a currency.

http://www.finextra.com/news/fullstory.aspx?newsitemid=25547

Wonder how Bitcoin mining will effect social security disability status.  Can one mine Bitcoins while on unemployment insurance?  Will mining have an effect on collecting social security retirement?  Probably should look to Alaska gold fields and see what they do there.
1717  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Simplest, easyist wallet? on: December 15, 2013, 10:44:47 PM
KryptoKit was released this week and so far it seems impressive in it's ease of use.

Too bad it requires Chrome.  When I use Chrome, my daily Spybot-S&D always comes up with infections afterwards.
1718  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Simplest, easyist wallet? on: December 15, 2013, 10:12:08 PM
KryptoKit was released this week and so far it seems impressive in it's ease of use.
TY
1719  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Simplest, easyist wallet? on: December 15, 2013, 09:58:02 PM

Thinking about pointing a miner for a period at friends' and relatives' Bitcoin addresses as a Christmas gift.  Almost none have a Bitcoin wallet and establishing Bitcoin-QT on a machine is likely too time consuming for most.  So, with which online wallet would they most easily establish a Bitcoin address?   Thanks.
1720  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: December 15, 2013, 09:17:33 PM
All,
Our first round Neptune products has now sold out.
We will be working with all of our suppliers to arrange another round of components so please keep an eye on our shop for future shipments of Neptune.
As it looks like our struggling competition may eventually ship before our Network protection period has finished, we may be in a position to release Jupiter’s and possibly upgrade cards which we will ship from stock.
If we do have more items to place in the shop for our 28nm range, we will announce this via one of our newsletters which will contain the time and date that they will go on sale. So keep some coins handy as we expect them to go quick.
A small note to say that bank transfers started on friday will be allowed. The status of your order will changed to paid when the transfer has arrived and been checked by our team.
Thanks KnC team

Lets hope they accept bank transfer  Tongue and do not ask 2BTC - 2000USD per board

No please stop pushing the network up for christ sake.  Didn't KnC already do enough damage?  I fail to see how this protects the network for KnC customers.  Chill the fuck out with pushing up the network.  Good grief.  Waiting for the Neptune would be nice for customers that already bought.

How about they open up Jupiter orders only for past customers? I would see it as a protection.

There seem to be a number of original customers who are quite willing to sell their option to buy, so....
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