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Author Topic: Economic Totalitarianism  (Read 345416 times)
TPTB_need_war
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August 23, 2015, 12:45:26 PM
 #1041

These are not addressing the block size scaling constraint. They are just referring to how fast nodes can verify transaction signatures. The former is the bandwidth elephant in the room and can't be scaled with existing consensus technology unless the mining is centralized on fiber connected servers.

In fairness there are many fiber connected homes now. Not everyone and not everywhere but it's become fairly common.

I can't even get reliable 3 Mbps download with 512 Kbps upload where I am. Many users will be on wireless devices.

One of the arguments for being able to withstand the government's documented moves towards controlling Bitcoin[1], is that mining can move to any jurisdiction and any means of internet connection, even low bandwidth shortwave or HAM radio.

If we are relegated to the few fiber connections well controlled by the monopolistic telcoms in the G7 or G20, then we've lost the battle.

[1]


A 51% attack can create as many Bitcoins as it wants to.

I think Bitcoin investors do not really believe it can happen, because they would not invest in inflatacoin.

But it is much more likely than they believe.

Everyone knows that Bitcoin mining MUST become more centralized (in order to scale up transactions) and thus it will likely (almost certainly IMO) eventually become controlled by the G20 that can regulate a few 100s of mining nodes. Will be justified by the G20 doing coordination against terrorism, money laundering, and tax cheating.

And the masses who use Coinbase wallets and other large providers such as the Blockstream.com (3 million wallets) CEO shaking hands with the Prime Minister of the UK upthread, won't care! They are sheep. They follow. They are preoccupied.

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TPTB_need_war
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August 23, 2015, 02:18:26 PM
 #1042

Well I thought eMunie might be a competitor to what I am doing and a potential solution to the totalitarianism, but now I highly doubt it:

Evaluation of eMunie

CN = consensus node = holds local information regarding the state of the ledger, and likely peripheral repository content.
IN = issuing node = challenges CN to insure they hold the correct data
SN = service nodes = only they can earn trust, and only if they respond to services timely. Thus CN and IN must be SNs.
TXN = transaction creation node = seed the trust earning process for each txn for a chosen service. Unclear how the network reaches consensus on trust awarded.

To start, one nitpick is there is no reliable concept of time in a consensus network, so instead you must base decay on blocks elapsed. If you entrust consensus on time, it adds another complex attack vcctor.

If I understand the general conflict resolution concept (ignoring for the moment possible attack vectors created by the bandwidth optimization that need more study), transactions are propagated over the network and counter signatures (CS) weighted by trust of the SNIDs propogate telling each node which of each set of transactions (amongst each double spend set) are the "first seen" transaction.

The attack vectors are DoS (especially on network propagation), Sybil attacks (spreading trust around to infinite nodes in order to control the transaction propagation order legally in the protocol), and collusion of nodes (legally within the protocol).

You address the Sybil attack due to trying to impart trust to self by creating spam transactions, but you don't address the Sybil attack designed to control propagation order. Additionally your proposed solution to transaction spam is flawed because if the transaction fees are greater than what is earned by any node(s), then eventually the money supply must go to zero (and that is true even if you create new money supply in other ways since the game theory will be holistically connected).

Also what is the financial incentive for these nodes to participate? Game theory can't be analyzed without that information.

You will have a very difficult challenge to beat me in terms of designing a better consensus network. Seriously. Good luck.

P.S. you have decent coin name. Perhaps you may consider abandoning your (what appears to me to be a) faulty design and joining me.

No personal offense intended, and I will not harp on this. Again good luck.


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August 23, 2015, 05:15:15 PM
 #1043

http://www.thestar.com.my/Tech/Tech-News/2015/08/21/Spanish-woman-fined-800-for-photo-of-police-car/
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August 23, 2015, 08:11:10 PM
 #1044

These are not addressing the block size scaling constraint. They are just referring to how fast nodes can verify transaction signatures. The former is the bandwidth elephant in the room and can't be scaled with existing consensus technology unless the mining is centralized on fiber connected servers.

In fairness there are many fiber connected homes now. Not everyone and not everywhere but it's become fairly common.

I can't even get reliable 3 Mbps download with 512 Kbps upload where I am. Many users will be on wireless devices.

Yes I as I said it isn't everywhere, but you don't need everywhere either, just "enough" places. I'd add that I've had 100-ish megabit wireless for quite a while too (and I sometimes use a location in a G7 country that just got upgraded to the ultra-speedy 3mb/384mb after many years stuck at 1.5/128!).

No if you want to maximize resiliency against a bezerk totalitarianism, you need to be able to mine from any where and any connection. We don't even know if they will shut down the internet. We have to be prepared for everything.

You love to argue just to argue don't you? How about cutting to the chase? Or do you really don't want to win.

I don't disagree that massive blocks or fast blocks are problematic with a Bitcoin-style chain (nor that being functional over ham radio, mesh networks, etc. would be preferable) but I'm not sure that "increasing" centralization is inevitable with simple scaling either. It is a race between capacity and available connectivity. Six years ago when Bitcoin started the availability of even 10 megabit connections was far narrower. Gavin may be wrong overall but there is some merit in his approach too.

It depends on the threat environment. I'd prefer ultimate resiliency given there are no tradeoffs and it is simply better in every way.

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August 23, 2015, 08:14:20 PM
 #1045

...

trollerc

Now THAT is pretty sick of Spain!  She even took the photo down.  Next time she ought to put the photo up in a more anonymous place.

This would also seem to fit Martin Armstrong's idea that .govs everywhere are just going for the money. 

Money, nada mas!
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August 23, 2015, 08:48:53 PM
 #1046

Oreo and Trolcookies,

When this stuff started in Nazi Germany, everyone was as nonchalant and non-alarmed as we are now.

It won't happen to us.  Roll Eyes

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August 24, 2015, 12:45:27 AM
 #1047

I guess all I can do about it is facepalm myself as history repeats once again.
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August 24, 2015, 03:14:46 AM
 #1048

A form of government in which the state controls
every aspect of the individual’s life and all opposition
is suppressed.
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August 24, 2015, 03:20:46 AM
 #1049

A form of government in which the state controls
every aspect of the individual’s life and all opposition
is suppressed.

Indeed, and most seem content to put up with it..
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August 24, 2015, 03:27:49 AM
Last edit: August 24, 2015, 03:42:16 AM by arielbit
 #1050


arielbit, thanks for this. I'm still looking into the pros and cons of shortwave for this application - plenty to learn! For instance, do you know how/if the "Rural Mesh Network" above could be adapted to be independent from the internet?


yes the "Rural Mesh Network" can be independent from the internet..it is like a separate internet from "the internet" but being disconnected from the internet will prevent you from accessing servers from a different location (e.g. google.com)

the application from this as stated in the paper is voice over IP, electronic mail etc.. imagine rural areas without telecom landlines or cellphone signal, or simply being able to communicate without using services and paying telecom companies, all this using only open source software.

since the network is maintained by the community..the question is the cost? is it cheaper this way?

http://wirelessafrica.meraka.org.za/wiki/index.php/DIY_Mesh_Guide_Download

using dd-wrt, an open source hack to cheap routers gives some advanced routing features needed for networking. even Linux pc's can be used as routers. https://www.pfsense.org/

i think we should still interconnect any network (e.g. rural wireless mesh, shortwave/HAM radio) to the internet because internet is already inside peoples homes, in their pc's and gadgets..this will greatly increase adoption of crypto currency. These networks should function as backup network or an alternative route for transactions..just like being able to get your money from an ATM in Bank A and an ATM in Bank B even though your money is deposited in Bank C (their ATM networks are interconnected)


One of the arguments for being able to withstand the government's documented moves towards controlling Bitcoin[1], is that mining can move to any jurisdiction and any means of internet connection, even low bandwidth shortwave or HAM radio.

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August 24, 2015, 03:38:54 AM
 #1051


arielbit, thanks for this. I'm still looking into the pros and cons of shortwave for this application - plenty to learn! For instance, do you know how/if the "Rural Mesh Network" above could be adapted to be independent from the internet?


yes the "Rural Mesh Network" can be independent from the internet..it is like a separate internet from "the internet" but being disconnected from the internet will prevent you from accessing servers from a different location (e.g. google.com)

http://wirelessafrica.meraka.org.za/wiki/index.php/DIY_Mesh_Guide_Download

using dd-wrt, an open source hack to cheap routers gives some advanced routing features needed for networking. even Linux pc's can be used as routers. https://www.pfsense.org/

i think we should still interconnect any network (e.g. rural wireless mesh, shortwave/HAM radio) to the internet because internet is already inside peoples homes, in their pc's and gadgets..this will greatly increase adoption of crypto currency. These networks should function as backup network or an alternative route for transactions..just like being able to get your money from an ATM in Bank A and an ATM in Bank B even though your money is deposited in Bank C (their ATM networks are interconnected)


One of the arguments for being able to withstand the government's documented moves towards controlling Bitcoin[1], is that mining can move to any jurisdiction and any means of internet connection, even low bandwidth shortwave or HAM radio.


Who ever is rolling on this with professionalism will receive funding to help make it a reality for common people, if any coin I am involved with reached fruition.

So do your homework now.

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August 24, 2015, 04:27:59 AM
 #1052

aside from networking i see two other major crypto currency hurdles for rural areas.

1.) cheap way to harness energy for electricity, these network devices should only need little energy from solar, wind or water steam to be online and transmitting signals.

2.) putting physical coins in common people's pockets..and the coins denominations. simple minded common people don't want operating systems (windows, linux, android or IOS) to transfer their money, they only need their hands.
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August 24, 2015, 07:02:04 AM
 #1053

Since this thread is about practical solutions, I will post about an idea that I had when watching pawn stars.

In an episode Rick is selling silver to a costumer and the Old man says: “We buy silver, we don’t sell it” and then Rick makes fun of his father.

When I saw this, my first thought was: Hey that’s a good idea. A person with enough resources could create a pawn shop hire people and manage the business as usual with the exception that the business will buy gold and silver but not sell it.

This will be a way to obtain gold and silver without drawing to much attention to yourself, not only that if well managed you’ll obtain a thriving business and the possibility of buying gold and silver at cheap prices.

 
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TPTB_need_war
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August 24, 2015, 01:04:29 PM
 #1054

This back an forth is uninteresting and can be simplified mathematically to the following.

F(x)=


Quote
CoinCube: For any finite value of x the function is not 0
TPTB_need_war: The answer is 0
CoinCube: For a finite value of x the function is greater than zero
TPTB_need_war: Why do I have to repeat myself the answer is zero

You have a blind spot when it comes to economics.

If the opportunity cost of not joining the Knowledge Age is say 10 - 100X greater than remaining in the financed NWO morass, the profit margins of the financed world go negative (in fact this has already happened in China in the export manufacturing sector!) because you have too many competing for the same small bounded value (relative to the Knowledge Age value and the unbounded opportunities for growth).

Thus collapse to 0. That collapsed financed NWO system will try to survive by TOTALITARIANISM and eugenics.

Q.E.D.

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August 24, 2015, 01:05:57 PM
 #1055

aside from networking i see two other major crypto currency hurdles for rural areas.

1.) cheap way to harness energy for electricity, these network devices should only need little energy from solar, wind or water steam to be online and transmitting signals.

https://www.google.com/search?q=micro+hydropower

2.) putting physical coins in common people's pockets..and the coins denominations. simple minded common people don't want operating systems (windows, linux, android or IOS) to transfer their money, they only need their hands.

Sorry physical coins can't be secure.

The solution is to make cryptocoins as easy as opening Facebook.

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August 24, 2015, 02:57:15 PM
 #1056

TPTB: do you have any thoughts on the "black monday" crash going on right now?  Is this the start to the 2015.75 financial crash?  A foreshadowing of things to come over the next couple months?

 Any steps to take in the immediate future?
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August 24, 2015, 03:23:39 PM
 #1057

TPTB: do you have any thoughts on the "black monday" crash going on right now?  Is this the start to the 2015.75 financial crash?  A foreshadowing of things to come over the next couple months?

 Any steps to take in the immediate future?

As I explained in my post in the MA thread today, this is the false move that causes the peak in bonds by Oct. 1.

You should be selling gold, BTC, and bonds, and buying US dollar and US stocks on this low this week.

Hold tight in that until Spring 2016, then diversify some into gold and crypto coins (especially mine  Grin) as they will bottom (<$700 and <$100).

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August 24, 2015, 03:31:12 PM
 #1058

TPTB: do you have any thoughts on the "black monday" crash going on right now?  Is this the start to the 2015.75 financial crash?  A foreshadowing of things to come over the next couple months?

 Any steps to take in the immediate future?

As I explained in my post in the MA thread today, this is the false move that causes the peak in bonds by Oct. 1.

You should be selling gold, BTC, and bonds, and buying US dollar and US stocks on this low this week.

Hold tight in that until Spring 2016, then diversify some into gold and crypto coins (especially mine  Grin) as they will bottom (<$700 and <$100).

great, thanks for the response.

So are the calls for an all out "collapse" (of banks, society, outright chaos) overblown?  It seems like financial markets are getting much more volatile and risky, do you think those predictions are overblown?  Or are they just misdirection?
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August 24, 2015, 03:34:47 PM
 #1059

TPTB: do you have any thoughts on the "black monday" crash going on right now?  Is this the start to the 2015.75 financial crash?  A foreshadowing of things to come over the next couple months?

 Any steps to take in the immediate future?

As I explained in my post in the MA thread today, this is the false move that causes the peak in bonds by Oct. 1.

You should be selling gold, BTC, and bonds, and buying US dollar and US stocks on this low this week.

Hold tight in that until Spring 2016, then diversify some into gold and crypto coins (especially mine  Grin) as they will bottom (<$700 and <$100).

great, thanks for the response.

So are the calls for an all out "collapse" (of banks, society, outright chaos) overblown?  It seems like financial markets are getting much more volatile and risky, do you think those predictions are overblown?  Or are they just misdirection?


TPTB is right about the US dollar.  It went down hard today vs. the euro and the yen because foreigners are cashing in their "Carry Trades" and taking their money home.  The dollar should be pretty strong for the short to medium term, IMO.

Sell bonds.  The 10-Year now has a yield of just 1.99%.  1.99%?  Ahh, no thanks.

Moi?  I sold a bunch of stock about three weeks ago, so am HODLING all else. 

Everyone's situation is different.
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August 24, 2015, 05:07:37 PM
 #1060

TPTB: do you have any thoughts on the "black monday" crash going on right now?  Is this the start to the 2015.75 financial crash?  A foreshadowing of things to come over the next couple months?

 Any steps to take in the immediate future?

As I explained in my post in the MA thread today, this is the false move that causes the peak in bonds by Oct. 1.

You should be selling gold, BTC, and bonds, and buying US dollar and US stocks on this low this week.

Hold tight in that until Spring 2016, then diversify some into gold and crypto coins (especially mine  Grin) as they will bottom (<$700 and <$100).

great, thanks for the response.

So are the calls for an all out "collapse" (of banks, society, outright chaos) overblown?  It seems like financial markets are getting much more volatile and risky, do you think those predictions are overblown?  Or are they just misdirection?


TPTB is right about the US dollar.  It went down hard today vs. the euro and the yen because foreigners are cashing in their "Carry Trades" and taking their money home.  The dollar should be pretty strong for the short to medium term, IMO.

Sell bonds.  The 10-Year now has a yield of just 1.99%.  1.99%?  Ahh, no thanks.

Moi?  I sold a bunch of stock about three weeks ago, so am HODLING all else. 

Everyone's situation is different.

In addition, this article is worth a read -> http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-08-23/the-fed-is-looking-at-a-very-different-dollar-than-wall-street

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