Martin Armstrong Discussion

[sidhujag]

We are engineering money so crypto can evolve. Gold cannot.

You invalidate yourself with your own posts so I don't even need to put up an argument.  Money doesn't "evolve".  If money can "evolve" and randomly morph from one thing to another, that means it's not fungible and fungibility is a REQUIREMENT of money.  It also means it's inevitable that it dies from rough consensus attack without a dictator attempting to force people to use one or another, which is obviously not decentralized.

Zkp will allow things like sidechains and new trustless designs which will move biztech off mainchain.

There's no such thing as an "off-chain" transaction in craptocurrency in practice since every transaction has to be settled on-chain eventually.  I covered all that here:

In simple terms, why you should hope cryptocurrency dies and gold and silver defeats them:

All cryptocurrencies are inherently rent seeking usury systems and a pseudo form of debt based currency if you will. The PoW chain does not just magically stay up on it's own, it requires a constant upkeep to exist at all (rent). A peer to peer physical gold or silver transaction can be done with no overhead cost; they're the equivalent of an off-chain transaction with no middleman or monopoly man gouging you with usury fees.  

Cryptocurrency is completely different.  Even if you attempt to do off-chain transactions via something like lightning network, or even in-person transactions with physical bitcoin bearer bonds, the transactions ALWAYS have to be settled on-chain eventually, so you are NEVER escaping the rent seeking usury system.  Since the blockchain is highly scaling constrained, it's like condeming yourself to extreme usury in the end game.  Bitcoin PoW is designed to centralize and the cartels running the mining operations will either be taken over by TPTB who already run the current system, or will just be a recreation of them in practice.

The further you abstract money away from barter, the larger a scam it is.  Only physical commodity based currencies are sound money that remove middlemen while allowing you to escape the debt based, rent seeking usury system.

You dont know what your talking about literally. Im a coder your not. When i say things like engineering money im being subtle. I dont have time to explain to you why your closed mind cant comprehend the implications of that statement. What you just wrote shows me that you have no understanding of what money actually is. In fact there is no actual definition.

Zkp lets you totally design trustless offchain yet connected consensus protocols. Just watch and learn.

[OROBTC]

...

There is another angle here to the crypto/metals holding debate that is missing: ages of the participants!

I am older than most of you guys (even the little birdie, ha ha).  It is absolutely true that preservation of wealth becomes more important than future (but uncertain) big gains.  AnonyMint/iamnotback has long held that a Knowledge Society is coming, and I think that is probably true. 

But, when does this Knowledge Age arrive?  If it is in 30 years, I'll likely be dead!  I am not going to put a bunch of my wealth into something risky.  Some, sure, but not 40% in Bitcoin or Alts.  No f'ng way!  I'll be diversified, and Bitcoin (or maybe other cryptos, later) will be a part, but most will be in assets that I understand and feel confident about.  Assets like our business, our condo, some stocks, some bonds, and of course gold.

I do hope to see improvements among the Alts.  I know that there are reasonably good alternatives already out there, but for various reasons I am not interested (illiquid, hard to buy and sell them, etc.).

*   *   *

Armstrong, as well as his defender iamnotback, have taught me a lot in taking a longer view of financial and political history.  Who cares if his EXACT predictions are true or not?  Not me.

But, I am coming around to shorter-term thinking in my own assets (I am encouraging my kid to think long-term, she has the time to do so).  And many of our assets have already been passed along.

[r0ach]

We are engineering money so crypto can evolve. Gold cannot.

You invalidate yourself with your own posts so I don't even need to put up an argument.  Money doesn't "evolve".  If money can "evolve" and randomly morph from one thing to another, that means it's not fungible and fungibility is a REQUIREMENT of money.  It also means it's inevitable that it dies from rough consensus attack without a dictator attempting to force people to use one or another, which is obviously not decentralized.

Zkp will allow things like sidechains and new trustless designs which will move biztech off mainchain.

There's no such thing as an "off-chain" transaction in craptocurrency in practice since every transaction has to be settled on-chain eventually.  I covered all that here:

In simple terms, why you should hope cryptocurrency dies and gold and silver defeats them:

All cryptocurrencies are inherently rent seeking usury systems and a pseudo form of debt based currency if you will. The PoW chain does not just magically stay up on it's own, it requires a constant upkeep to exist at all (rent). A peer to peer physical gold or silver transaction can be done with no overhead cost; they're the equivalent of an off-chain transaction with no middleman or monopoly man gouging you with usury fees.  

Cryptocurrency is completely different.  Even if you attempt to do off-chain transactions via something like lightning network, or even in-person transactions with physical bitcoin bearer bonds, the transactions ALWAYS have to be settled on-chain eventually, so you are NEVER escaping the rent seeking usury system.  Since the blockchain is highly scaling constrained, it's like condeming yourself to extreme usury in the end game.  Bitcoin PoW is designed to centralize and the cartels running the mining operations will either be taken over by TPTB who already run the current system, or will just be a recreation of them in practice.

The further you abstract money away from barter, the larger a scam it is.  Only physical commodity based currencies are sound money that remove middlemen while allowing you to escape the debt based, rent seeking usury system.

You dont know what your talking about literally. Im a coder your not. When i say things like engineering money im being subtle. I dont have time to explain to you why your closed mind cant comprehend the implications of that statement. What you just wrote shows me that you have no understanding of what money actually is. In fact there is no actual definition.

Zkp lets you totally design trustless offchain yet connected consensus protocols. Just watch and learn.

Says who?  You just make up shit one after another.  I started with MEL then went to Python.  I don't code as a profession because it's torture.  Same reason Anonymint always talks about coding but doesn't actually do any lol.  You are 100% a flat out liar.  You even claim cryptocurrency is "fungible" when a 10 year old child can see through that lie.

[Traxo]

I replied to the anonymint thread

I see the little birdie [replied](https://steemit.com/money/@anonymint/get-ready-for-a-world-currency#@anonymint/re-r0achtheunsavory-re-anonymint-get-ready-for-a-world-currency-20170722t141306974z).

Usa is not the world. Take a look at global index

The link provided to you was for the USA real estate cycle. The worlds QE ended up in $9 trillion of dollar-denominated bonds abroad, so year it created bubble assets abroad.
The coming short dollar vortex is going to reverse that.

It is absolutely true that preservation of wealth becomes more important than future (but uncertain) big gains.

Then why buy metals that go to zero value in a collapse and underperform otherwise.
Gold only has a blip up for a very short period of time while the public confidence declines.
Then you must sell it, but this time you won't be able to sell it because the government is going to be regulating all the dealers and confiscating.

But, when does this Knowledge Age arrive?

It has been here since at least 2009 with Bitcoin rising 50% per annum since then.

How late will you be to board the train? (although I do not suggest buying more BTC at these high prices, wait for a blow off peak and correction first.

I would highly suggest liquidating your Pt into dollars and holding dollars until there is a right time to buy more cryptocurrencies.

Hang on to some gold, but not more than 5% of your networth. I would indeed have at least 20% of networth in cryptocurrencies.

Same reason Anonymint always talks about coding but doesn't actually do any lol.

So either you’ve been infected with disseminated Tuberculosis for past 5+ years same as him, else you are lying (misrepresenting truth) yet again.
He coded 100,000s of LOC before he got infected with TB.

You even claim cryptocurrency is "fungible" when a 10 year old child can see through that lie.

Which is the same accusation we can make against gold bullion then which are in my experience not fungible with each other and different dealers have different things they are willing to buy and sell to you.

[r0ach]

You even claim cryptocurrency is "fungible" when a 10 year old child can see through that lie.

Which is the same accusation we can make against gold bullion then which are in my experience not fungible with each other and different dealers have different things they are willing to buy and sell to you.

These are the facts:

Bitcoin isn't money at all, it's a currency.  Fungibility is one of the requirements of money.  Money can't just randomly morph from one thing to another with forks or alterations.

Money = has objective, static traits

Currency = random arbitrary bullshit some guy makes up and constantly fiddles with aka bitcoin

This is why it's called "cryptocurrency".  Currencies are not a store of value either.  People just make believe bitcoin is whenever they get on the profitable side of a pump and dump.

[sidhujag]

We are engineering money so crypto can evolve. Gold cannot.

You invalidate yourself with your own posts so I don't even need to put up an argument.  Money doesn't "evolve".  If money can "evolve" and randomly morph from one thing to another, that means it's not fungible and fungibility is a REQUIREMENT of money.  It also means it's inevitable that it dies from rough consensus attack without a dictator attempting to force people to use one or another, which is obviously not decentralized.

Zkp will allow things like sidechains and new trustless designs which will move biztech off mainchain.

There's no such thing as an "off-chain" transaction in craptocurrency in practice since every transaction has to be settled on-chain eventually.  I covered all that here:

In simple terms, why you should hope cryptocurrency dies and gold and silver defeats them:

All cryptocurrencies are inherently rent seeking usury systems and a pseudo form of debt based currency if you will. The PoW chain does not just magically stay up on it's own, it requires a constant upkeep to exist at all (rent). A peer to peer physical gold or silver transaction can be done with no overhead cost; they're the equivalent of an off-chain transaction with no middleman or monopoly man gouging you with usury fees.  

Cryptocurrency is completely different.  Even if you attempt to do off-chain transactions via something like lightning network, or even in-person transactions with physical bitcoin bearer bonds, the transactions ALWAYS have to be settled on-chain eventually, so you are NEVER escaping the rent seeking usury system.  Since the blockchain is highly scaling constrained, it's like condeming yourself to extreme usury in the end game.  Bitcoin PoW is designed to centralize and the cartels running the mining operations will either be taken over by TPTB who already run the current system, or will just be a recreation of them in practice.

The further you abstract money away from barter, the larger a scam it is.  Only physical commodity based currencies are sound money that remove middlemen while allowing you to escape the debt based, rent seeking usury system.

You dont know what your talking about literally. Im a coder your not. When i say things like engineering money im being subtle. I dont have time to explain to you why your closed mind cant comprehend the implications of that statement. What you just wrote shows me that you have no understanding of what money actually is. In fact there is no actual definition.

Zkp lets you totally design trustless offchain yet connected consensus protocols. Just watch and learn.

Says who?  You just make up shit one after another.  I started with MEL then went to Python.  I don't code as a profession because it's torture.  Same reason Anonymint always talks about coding but doesn't actually do any lol.  You are 100% a flat out liar.  You even claim cryptocurrency is "fungible" when a 10 year old child can see through that lie.

It totally is CT and schnorr sigs(with over 33% block size savings to boot!) will make btc fungible. Zkp can also make it fungible and it can make a trustless sidechain design. Your reading advice from a professional. It has higher weight than yours on the subject.

With segwit + schnorr we get effectively a 233%+ block size increase. So we will end up having miners settle for it come november when decision times comes for segwit2x. Basically we will see the strength of the system shown at full force proving that POW > POS or any other consensus mechanism that is not rooted or backed by POW, there is no silver bullet and POW is the best the world currently has for BFT consensus in our context.

[r0ach]

CT and schnorr sigs will make btc fungible.

Cryptocurrency is NOT fungible.  You're trying to make believe that if coins can be tumbled it's somehow fungible but there is more to it than that.  If anything about the protocol at all can be altered via a strongman or banana republic voting to take over it's exposed power vacuum it's not fungible.  Anonymint even agreed on this at one point in time but he has probably cucked out and did a 180 now that he wants to release a cryptocurrency of his own.  The article I wrote on RFID chipping earlier clearly explains why cryptocurrency is not fungible.  

Just read the quoted text if you don't want to click it:

https://steemit.com/news/@r0achtheunsavory/the-r0ach-report-19-the-mainstream-media-broke-all-records-in-malthusian-propaganda-today-rfid-chipping

Money = has objective, static traits

Currency = random arbitrary bullshit some guy makes up and constantly fiddles with like fiat or bitcoin. If it's possible for your money to "hard fork", or randomly morph from one thing to another, it's not fungible, and hence not money. In that circumstance you are involved in some type of scheme with a schemer ruling over you.

It doesn't matter if said forks are orchestrated by a banana republic of miners in a voting process. There is no Nash equilibrium in cryptocurrency, only a power vacuum to be filled by a top down hierarchy or strongman. To escape this master and servant hierarchy you have to use real money that cannot be altered or tampered with by third parties.

[sidhujag]

CT and schnorr sigs will make btc fungible.

Cryptocurrency is NOT fungible.  You're trying to make believe that if coins can be tumbled it's somehow fungible but there is more to it than that.  If anything about the protocol at all can be altered via a strongman or banana republic voting to take over it's exposed power vacuum it's not fungible.  Anonymint even agreed on this at one point in time but he has probably cucked out and did a 180 now that he wants to release a cryptocurrency of his own.  The article I wrote on RFID chipping earlier clearly explains why cryptocurrency is not fungible.  

Just read the quoted text if you don't want to click it:

https://steemit.com/news/@r0achtheunsavory/the-r0ach-report-19-the-mainstream-media-broke-all-records-in-malthusian-propaganda-today-rfid-chipping

Money = has objective, static traits

Currency = random arbitrary bullshit some guy makes up and constantly fiddles with like fiat or bitcoin. If it's possible for your money to "hard fork", or randomly morph from one thing to another, it's not fungible, and hence not money. In that circumstance you are involved in some type of scheme with a schemer ruling over you.

It doesn't matter if said forks are orchestrated by a banana republic of miners in a voting process. There is no Nash equilibrium in cryptocurrency, only a power vacuum to be filled by a top down hierarchy or strongman. To escape this master and servant hierarchy you have to use real money that cannot be altered or tampered with by third parties.

Like I said money has no definition it is a construct. It is built to suit the needs of barter at the time. Last century we had gold then transitioned to rate targetting fiat this century we have crypto the next type of money. The cool thing with crypto is it is engineered to mold to the needs of society. That is what we are doing. Ct lets us have zkp and brings fungability to the table for bitcoin. Tumbling has nothing to do with it. With sidechains and zkp this can be a reality. Gold is not fungible and crypto is by definition because of its engineering qualities.

Read nick szabos blog on multhusian events causing commodities to fall back to industrial value.

http://unenumerated.blogspot.ca/2016/02/two-malthusian-scares.html?m=1

We are in one now which should put gold back to under $1000 for the foreseeable future.

[r0ach]

The cool thing with crypto is it is engineered

No, that is actually not cool at all.  That means it's simply an artificial video game controlled by a central party, hence it's not decentralized or fungible or money.  Just because the controller at the top of the hierarchy is obfuscated or can sometimes change through some banana republic voting process or power grab by a strongman makes no difference.  The only fact that matters is that bitcoin has no Nash equilibrium, therefore it's not decentralized.

Gold is not fungible and crypto is by definition because of its engineering qualities.

You need to be more careful when you type blatant lies because even a caveman reading this thread can tell this is a lie.  Cryptocurrency is not fungible by definition because it can be changed via power vacuum, while gold and silver are fungible because elements on the periodic table are immune to things like democracy or authoritarianism.  I can only conclude you are a real life actual scammer if you feel the need to lie to this extent.

[sidhujag]

The cool thing with crypto is it is engineered

No, that is actually not cool at all.  That means it's simply an artificial video game controlled by a central party, hence it's not decentralized or fungible or money.  Just because the controller at the top of the hierarchy is obfuscated or can sometimes change through some banana republic voting process or power grab by a strongman makes no difference.  The only fact that matters is that bitcoin has no Nash equilibrium, therefore it's not decentralized.

Gold is not fungible and crypto is by definition because of its engineering qualities.

You need to be more careful when you type blatant lies because even a caveman reading this thread can tell this is a lie.  Cryptocurrency is not fungible by definition because it can be changed via power vacuum, while gold and silver are fungible because elements on the periodic table are immune to things like democracy or authoritarianism.  I can only conclude you are a real life actual scammer if you feel the need to lie to this extent.

You need to stop flat out lying because gold can be repatriated and confiscated and thus the value depends on other uses of it thus making it unfungible and no engineering can fix that.

Being engineered doesnt mean you change things willy nilly but it lets you innovate and adapt to society without breaking compatibility. Once the genesis is born it is there to stay forever.  The protocol can be upgraded to mold itself to the requirements at the time. This is why its.a better form of money. Ct and zkp is an example of this.

[r0ach]

gold can be repatriated

Claiming gold and silver aren't fungible because...it can be physically stolen...is the most illogical, laughable, and unrelated to the topic argument I've ever seen.  Are you sure you're a programmer?  This is not sound logic.  Is your next feat of logic to claim that earth isn't a planet because someone might steal it?

[OROBTC]

...

Armstrong today writes about migrants bringing diseases into their new countries.  Much of his note is on TB in Germany.  An interesting factoid is that apparently it Was Columbus (or his crew) that brought Syphilis back to Europe.

Also he identified Patient Zero who brought HIV/AIDS to the USA.

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/migrations-always-bring-infectious-diseases/

[sidhujag]

gold can be repatriated

Claiming gold and silver aren't fungible because...it can be physically stolen...is the most illogical, laughable, and unrelated to the topic argument I've ever seen.  Are you sure you're a programmer?  This is not sound logic.  Is your next feat of logic to claim that earth isn't a planet because someone might steal it?

Stolen and confiscated are 2 different things. When the govt blacklists bars and you have to melt that gold turn it into jewellery and export it it becomes infungible. Not to mention millions of other things wrong with it like being too soft and having people able to shave gold off of coins because its easy to do. Govt cant ban decentralized technology.. same reason internet flourished.

[r0ach]

There is truly no hope for people involved in bitcoin.

from:
http://steemit.com/money/@r0achtheunsavory/the-r0ach-report-20-everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-precious-metals-vs-bitcoin-fundamentals-and-the-future-of-the

[Traxo]

Elon Musk vs. Mark Zuckerburg:

http://unheresy.com/Information%20Is%20Alive.html#Thought_Isn't_Fungible

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/armstrongeconomics101/ai-computers/facebook-shuts-down-it-ai-system/

https://www.recode.net/2017/7/25/16026184/mark-zuckerberg-artificial-intelligence-elon-musk-ai-argument-twitter

http://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-mark-zuckerberg-ai-artificial-intelligence-disagreement-debate-2017-7

mircea_popescu: there is no objective money.
…
mircea_popescu: but the point does stand, that gold on mars is not gold but just a metal.
asciilifeform: money is a community thing…
mircea_popescu: surely.

[OROBTC]

...

On July 30, I turned in some BTC for Au, concerned a bit that the BTC community might screw up with the Aug 1 fork.

Provident Metals had stopped taking Bitcoin as payment!  That was a shock, so I had to open an account with jmbullion.com who still did.  I have not checked back with Provident to see if they have changed their minds, but for whatever reason they stopped taking BTC, thus lowering somewhat BTC fungibility....

These stupid forks are aggravating to me (and I am sure to millions of others).  The BTC community needs to shape up, else some will leave...

I'm still in BTC, only selling off some 15% of my stash.  But, even with the apparent success of SegWit(2x?), BTC is in danger of bringing itself down, without .gov having to lift a finger.

[THX 1138]

Today, Armstrong warns those in the EU to keep 30 days' of cash in case of plans for "draconian absolute dictatorial control over European markets includes a pan-European freezing of all bank accounts in the event of an impending banking crisis".

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/banking-crisis/our-european-tour-part-ii-seizing-all-bank-accounts-throughout-eu/

EDIT: An article covering this over on Zerohedge too: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-01/europes-banking-dysfunction-worsens

[OROBTC]

Today, Armstrong warns those in the EU to keep 30 days' of cash in case of plans for "draconian absolute dictatorial control over European markets includes a pan-European freezing of all bank accounts in the event of an impending banking crisis".

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/banking-crisis/our-european-tour-part-ii-seizing-all-bank-accounts-throughout-eu/

EDIT: An article covering this over on Zerohedge too: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-01/europes-banking-dysfunction-worsens

Yow!!  I'm in St Pete, Russia (on a cruise), I'll pull some more Euros out of an ATM ASAP (Finland is next up).  Good thing I have some BTC with me, as well as a wee-bit of gold.

If Europe freezes their citizens' bank accounts it would be just a matter of DAYS before the USA would pull something similar IMO...

[THX 1138]

Today, Armstrong warns those in the EU to keep 30 days' of cash in case of plans for "draconian absolute dictatorial control over European markets includes a pan-European freezing of all bank accounts in the event of an impending banking crisis".

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/banking-crisis/our-european-tour-part-ii-seizing-all-bank-accounts-throughout-eu/

EDIT: An article covering this over on Zerohedge too: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-01/europes-banking-dysfunction-worsens

Yow!!  I'm in St Pete, Russia (on a cruise), I'll pull some more Euros out of an ATM ASAP (Finland is next up).  Good thing I have some BTC with me, as well as a wee-bit of gold.

If Europe freezes their citizens' bank accounts it would be just a matter of DAYS before the USA would pull something similar IMO...

Quite a trip you're on! Yes, I think you're probably right regarding USA going down that route too. Though with the EU it would be a desperate "nuclear option"; could blow up in their faces. Though it might be a mistake to understate the extent of the sheer hubris on their part.

[r0ach]

Whenever the ghost of Anonymint gets back on his 73rd account, I would like him to comment on my statement that people got the game theory of BCH vs BTC wrong:

I like to consider my hedl BCH as an insurance on the unlikely black swan of BTC losing value as the real chain.

You are correct.  Random noobs on this forum INCORRECTLY stated that the only valid game theory path was to dump BCH (think it was derived from some nonsense Szabo said).  He made the error of assuming you're required to keep one token at all.  The real optimal path is to dump both of them in event of rough consensus attack, meaning what's going on right now.  If you refuse to dump both for whatever reason, then the optimal path to try and minimize loss would just be to hold all of them.