[Announcement] Avalon ASIC Batch #1 Ships

[Inaba]

all orders will go to Avalon

Dude, no. I am not ordering something that uses 400 fucking watts. BFL could blow out their power consumption by 100% and still be a third of that.

<Cough> <Cough>

Actually, once you find out what the feature set is, I am pretty sure the first thing that will happen is BFL customers will either:

A) Wish to bail at the very last minute...and BFL will (very likely) refuse customers their refund requests as they are already being assembled.

B) Wish for BFL to implement the same kinds of features...immediately....which won't be doable in the short term. Causing BFL customers to be upset that their money is tied up in a product that most of them won't want.

Which then begs the question: Do you want to spend $1,300 at BFL or $1500 at Avalon once you know what the feature sets are?

Why do you think they are being super secretive about what these features are exactly?

The feature-set is probably where Avalon will upset the remaining market.

(Don't ask me what I mean, I won't say anyway)

Think about it,

Why would they make you wait for someone else to review the entire feature set? (written by a third party)

What if there was something that a small miner or multi-unit purchaser would appreciate quite a bit?

It is possible that perhaps BFL will cut prices once they know what the features are. Perhaps not. All I do know is that BFL cannot reduce it's prices without pissing off their current pre-order customers. Nor can they give away more units for the same price point.

Hint: Why does Batch 2 cost more than Batch 1?
Because people would still be willing to pay more once they know what it is they are getting.

Wow.. the self denial is incredible.  Yes, enjoy your 4U, 400w hashing monster, lol. Size a fucking refrigerator for 66 GH/s.

[Syke]

https://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/node.asp?id=2333

China

China is one of the countries with the strongest restrictions on cryptography; a license is required for export, import, or domestic use of any cryptography product. There are several restrictions on export regulations, and China is not participating in the Wassenaar Arrangement.

So? Mining doesn't do any cryptography.

[PuertoLibre]

Time tells all tales

P.S. @ Inaba

I thought you said you didn't follow other users around. Yet here you are.

[PuertoLibre]

Wow.. the self denial is incredible.  Yes, enjoy your 4U, 400w hashing monster, lol. Size a fucking refrigerator for 66 GH/s.

Quoted for future reference.

Edit: Sometimes nice things come in big packages (for a good reason).

[nathanrees19]

Really?

Let me point out two major issues here:
1. Announced BFL power consumtion may turn out to be not like advertised

Let's say it blows out by four times. 240W is still much less than 400W.

2. While you wait for your BFL product even eith 100W power consumtion (I do not know actualy what is advertised) your roi may become even a years. Menwhile first and second batch of customers will enjoy their products and make some good money asuming that BFL will add some more delay

There is no doubt that first-batch Avalon customers will make some quick BTC (if they ever get the whole lot out the door), but the second batch could easily ship later than BFL.

[Inaba]

Yes, because keeping tabs on a competitor's thread is "following PuertoLibre around."  heh... god you are such an idiot I just can't believe it sometimes.

[Frequency]

all orders will go to Avalon

Dude, no. I am not ordering something that uses 400 fucking watts. BFL could blow out their power consumption by 100% and still be a third of that.

<Cough> <Cough>

Actually, once you find out what the feature set is, I am pretty sure the first thing that will happen is BFL customers will either:

A) Wish to bail at the very last minute...and BFL will (very likely) refuse customers their refund requests as they are already being assembled.

B) Wish for BFL to implement the same kinds of features...immediately....which won't be doable in the short term. Causing BFL customers to be upset that their money is tied up in a product that most of them won't want.

Which then begs the question: Do you want to spend $1,300 at BFL or at Avalon once you know what the feature sets are?

Why do you think they are being super secretive about what these features are exactly?

The feature-set is probably where Avalon will upset the remaining market.

(Don't ask me what I mean, I won't say anyway)

Okay so lets take the three ASIC venders: bAsic Avalon and Bfl

bAsic lots of talking but out of the race (scam or not) didn,t proof anything
Avalon lots of talking but suddenly silenced and didn,t proof anything sofar, could also be a scam as far as what we see this week is happening..

So if 2 out of 3 parties didn,t manage to really 1 do what they promise 2 took a lot of money 3 didn,t meet there specs, didn,t deliver ect. Ect.

Then why the hell do you think BFL will also not doing the same thing.. Isn,t it to clear ..!!!

Ok and then they dare to call me a fucking troll or whatever..

Meet ur specs meet your promisses and trolly will take back whats said. He i even buy tien WORKING devices from any of you ...

But untill then I smell a fuck!ng Scam..

[PuertoLibre]

Yes, because keeping tabs on a competitor's thread is "following PuertoLibre around."  heh... god you are such an idiot I just can't believe it sometimes.

Yet you say exactly the same. Thank you for admitting you are an idiot.

[niko]

https://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/node.asp?id=2333

China

China is one of the countries with the strongest restrictions on cryptography; a license is required for export, import, or domestic use of any cryptography product. There are several restrictions on export regulations, and China is not participating in the Wassenaar Arrangement.

So? Mining doesn't do any cryptography.

I agree, but I can see how a bureaucrat might disagree. Most of resources refer to SHA256 as a "cryptographic hash function". Avalon might sneak through, or they might be required to obtain a license - which may take a while.

[nathanrees19]

Because people would still be willing to pay more once they know what it is they are getting.

Okay, say I want to buy a device for mining, and I want it to remain profitable for at least a year. That means I am looking for a device with the following features:

• mining
• low power

Sure, Avalon could have some extra awesome feature, but unless that feature increases mining (maybe it sees the future so it knows which nonce it will be without hashing?) or reduced power (maybe it includes 16 100W solar panels to keep the unit online for free?) then the unit is not going to be superior than a boring competing unit which does the same mining for 1/4 of the power.

[ElectricMucus]

Because people would still be willing to pay more once they know what it is they are getting.

Okay, say I want to buy a device for mining, and I want it to remain profitable for at least a year. That means I am looking for a device with the following features:

• mining
• low power

Sure, Avalon could have some extra awesome feature, but unless that feature increases mining (maybe it sees the future so it knows which nonce it will be without hashing?) or reduced power (maybe it includes 16 100W solar panels to keep the unit online for free?) then the unit is not going to be superior than a boring competing unit which does the same mining for 1/4 of the power.

ever heard of undervolting?

[cedivad]

Maybe the 100$ extra shipping cost is to corrupt the customs agents.

[PuertoLibre]

Because people would still be willing to pay more once they know what it is they are getting.

Okay, say I want to buy a device for mining, and I want it to remain profitable for at least a year. That means I am looking for a device with the following features:

• mining
• low power

Sure, Avalon could have some extra awesome feature, but unless that feature increases mining (maybe it sees the future so it knows which nonce it will be without hashing?) or reduced power (maybe it includes 16 100W solar panels to keep the unit online for free?) then the unit is not going to be superior than a boring competing unit which does the same mining for 1/4 of the power.

Quoted for future reference. A sampling of a BFL supporter before the review.  

I 'll ask you later on if you are still thinking along the same lines. (Don't worry, I know it won't make sense to you until later.)

[cedivad]

Because people would still be willing to pay more once they know what it is they are getting.

Okay, say I want to buy a device for mining, and I want it to remain profitable for at least a year. That means I am looking for a device with the following features:

• mining
• low power

Sure, Avalon could have some extra awesome feature, but unless that feature increases mining (maybe it sees the future so it knows which nonce it will be without hashing?) or reduced power (maybe it includes 16 100W solar panels to keep the unit online for free?) then the unit is not going to be superior than a boring competing unit which does the same mining for 1/4 of the power.

Quoted for future reference. A sampling of a BFL supporter before the review.  

I 'll ask you later on if you are still thinking along the same lines. (Don't worry, I know it won't make sense to you until later.)

So after this insider info, how much will you order from the second batch?

And please define "until later" please, if you are allowed to.

[nathanrees19]

ever heard of undervolting?

Yep. Dynamic voltage/clock adjustment would be a useful feature, but it's not likely to push the efficiency up very much.

[nathanrees19]

Because people would still be willing to pay more once they know what it is they are getting.

Okay, say I want to buy a device for mining, and I want it to remain profitable for at least a year. That means I am looking for a device with the following features:

• mining
• low power

Sure, Avalon could have some extra awesome feature, but unless that feature increases mining (maybe it sees the future so it knows which nonce it will be without hashing?) or reduced power (maybe it includes 16 100W solar panels to keep the unit online for free?) then the unit is not going to be superior than a boring competing unit which does the same mining for 1/4 of the power.

Quoted for future reference. A sampling of a BFL supporter before the review.  

I 'll ask you later on if you are still thinking along the same lines. (Don't worry, I know it won't make sense to you until later.)

Well, that was rather predictable.

[hardcore-fs]

https://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/node.asp?id=2333

China

China is one of the countries with the strongest restrictions on cryptography; a license is required for export, import, or domestic use of any cryptography product. There are several restrictions on export regulations, and China is not participating in the Wassenaar Arrangement.

http://www.cryptolaw.org/cls2.htm#prc

1. Export/ import controls
By State Council Order No. 273, "Commercial Use Password Management Regulations", published on 15 October 1999 and in effect since 7 October 1999, import and export of encryption products requires a license by the State Encryption Management Commission. According to a "clarification letter" sent to US businesses in China in early March 2000, this involves only hardware and software for which encryption and decoding operations are core functions. As a result, products in which cryptography is only built-in (such as mobile phones and browser software) are exempted. Moreover, the letter clarified that the regulations do not entail key escrow.
However, the clarification letter only seems to apply to pre-2000 products. All products since 2000 seem to require a license.

YAWN......... a point I made several weeks ago.... along with the comments about government involvement at some level...

[PuertoLibre]

Because people would still be willing to pay more once they know what it is they are getting.

Okay, say I want to buy a device for mining, and I want it to remain profitable for at least a year. That means I am looking for a device with the following features:

• mining
• low power

Sure, Avalon could have some extra awesome feature, but unless that feature increases mining (maybe it sees the future so it knows which nonce it will be without hashing?) or reduced power (maybe it includes 16 100W solar panels to keep the unit online for free?) then the unit is not going to be superior than a boring competing unit which does the same mining for 1/4 of the power.

Quoted for future reference. A sampling of a BFL supporter before the review.  

I 'll ask you later on if you are still thinking along the same lines. (Don't worry, I know it won't make sense to you until later.)

So after this insider info, how much will you order from the second batch?

And please define "until later" please, if you are allowed to.

No, not an insider, I know just slightly more than you. It is just one detail that can make or break companies.

Think about what happened prior to today and what really messed up the ASIC companies in general.

-----------------------

Travel back in memory to September 2012.

bASIC has the 36Gh/s system.
BFL has the 40Gh/s system.
Avalon has the 60Gh/s system.

Avalon begins their project in full swing and starts accepting orders.
BFL takes them seriously, makes a promise to overclock their ASICs by 50%. Raising it to 60 Gh/s.

Problems occur with the BFL single because of the raised specs. Plastic (no surprise) is not good for removing this extra heat. Problems occur with the BFL chips being very close to overheating (without any thermal control. with thermal control it would have continuously throttled the GH/s.)

They miss their October Delivery date. They keep it virtually a secret as to what happened. November, then December, then January, and soon to be February 2013.

-----

bASIC raises their speed ratings up to 72Gh/s. Causing a redesign of the entire PCB system. They were slated for a November release at 36Gh/s (if I recall correctly). A 100% performance increase.

November turns into December, then January, and eventually February and March 2013.

Again, this causes customers to lose confidence and eventually the company collapses.

-------

Avalon opens their orders in September 2012 for 60Gh/s systems.

They take on orders and cut their shipping estimates from February 2013 to January 2013. After some optimization of the software their miner runs on, they estimate a raise of customer devices up to 66Gh/s. No apparent hardware changes occur.

They are on time. People complain about Avalon not having shipping information readily available and the low rate of speed for building the devices. Avalon cites some issues with customs at a Shipping broker.

Unreleased features to be reviewed by a third party...kept secret until the reviewer is done or customers receive their units.

-------------------
-------------------

As you can see, the ones who have to worry alot are the competition. They messed themselves up by trying to over compete. One folded due to people losing confidence. The other is rebuilding over and over again to try to remain competitive.

What happens if one of those unreleased features makes them (BFL) an noncompetitive lemon?

Inaba/Josh can boast all he wants. At the end of the day its all about the customers. If they don't have a Plan B....well, bASIC...here we go for round 2.

[crazyates]

https://www.rsa.com/rsalabs/node.asp?id=2333

China

China is one of the countries with the strongest restrictions on cryptography; a license is required for export, import, or domestic use of any cryptography product. There are several restrictions on export regulations, and China is not participating in the Wassenaar Arrangement.

http://www.cryptolaw.org/cls2.htm#prc

1. Export/ import controls
By State Council Order No. 273, "Commercial Use Password Management Regulations", published on 15 October 1999 and in effect since 7 October 1999, import and export of encryption products requires a license by the State Encryption Management Commission. According to a "clarification letter" sent to US businesses in China in early March 2000, this involves only hardware and software for which encryption and decoding operations are core functions. As a result, products in which cryptography is only built-in (such as mobile phones and browser software) are exempted. Moreover, the letter clarified that the regulations do not entail key escrow.
However, the clarification letter only seems to apply to pre-2000 products. All products since 2000 seem to require a license.

2. Domestic laws and regulations
By State Council Order No. 273, "Commercial Use Password Management Regulations", published on 15 October 1999 and in effect since 7 October 1999, domestic crypto manufacture and use is severely restricted. Officially designated manufacturers must obtain aproval from the State Encryption Management Commission for the type and model (including key length) of their crypto products. Organisations and individuals may not distribute encryption products produced abroad. People may only use encryption products approved by the Commission, and they may not use commercial encryption products developed by themselves or produced abroad. For this use, they must have approval by the Commission. Only foreign diplomatic missions and consulates are exempted from this approval. The deadline for registration of crypto users was 31 January 2000.

According to a "clarification letter" sent to US businesses in China in early March 2000, this involves, however, only specialized hardware and software for which encryption and decoding operations are core functions. As a result, products in which cryptography is only built-in are exempted. Moreover, the letter clarified that the regulations do not entail key escrow.
However, the clarification letter only seems to apply to pre-2000 products. All products since 2000 seem to require a license.

For wireless crypto products, China seems to require use of a Chinese proprietary algorithm, and AES and WEP must be disabled.

And all this wasn't brought up before because...

Can we go back to this and talk about what this means for Avalon importing their products and how it's different than a company shipping from inside the US?

[crazyates]

BFL has the 40Gh/s system.

BFL takes them seriously, makes a promise to overclock their ASICs by 30%. Raising it to 60 Gh/s.

Last time I checked, overclocking from 40GH/s -> 60GH/s was a 50% overclock, not 30%. I could be wrong tho. Those damn maths are sneaky little bastards.