[Archive] BFL trolling museum

[gopher]

@smoothie

Well, I am a customer of BFL, happily mining with their products.

I have number of pre-orders in and eagerly await those to be delivered, so I can place orders for some more mini-rigs.

I've asked some relevant questions in the past, politely, and Josh answered them all without delay, to my satisfaction.

I would not think of making myself a fool by repeating your questions though, I would not think any customer would care to do so neither.

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[creativex]

I would not think of making myself a fool by repeating your questions though, I would not think any customer would care to do so neither.

You mean like this real customer? BFL's response to this fair assessment? Crickets.

To me it just seems like there really was no way BFL was ever going to Ship in the October/November timeframe they had been giving from the Start. Delays happen and are understandable but it seems no one at BFL has any more clue about when they'll ship then we do! This is unacceptable when they have taken nearly $10 Million of peoples Pre-order money. I've made the Choice to keep my Orders as I don't have any other good option (at this time) but Who is accountable here and what is the Real story?!? Again, if this had been a "normal" pre-order I wouldn't really have much to say except "damn, this sucks" but when you take Millions of $$$ from people for 3-6 Months you are held to a Higher Standard and NEED Full transparency...if you want Secrecy then don't ask for 100% Money up front Pre-orders.

At this point, I don't think it is unreasonable for people to be asking for some sort of compensation. We have after all given BFL Several Million Dollars to "hold" for 2 Months longer than the original agreement.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/519-10-dec-2012-bfl-asic-update-7.html

[Frizz23]

You are so predictable, Josh. Your defensive postings all follow the same pattern:

a) First lines and lines of jabbering not related to the subject at all.
b) Second: insulting the opponent.
c) Then, once you are caught lying, you play down the issue.

So here we go: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.msg1428325#msg1428325

a) Jabbering: "Tell me what all those posts ... yadda yadda yadda ..."
b) Insults: "... being too stupid to understand your ass from a hole in the ground ..."
c) Play down the issue: "... find the 3 posts that have been deleted, out of 8700... "

In fact there a way more than only 3 deleted posts. And you know that!

I never said it's only 3 posts that got deleted. I said I give you 3 examples of deleted posts. You do know the meaning of the word "example", don't you?

One is especially embarrassing for you: You share some of your superficial knowledge (hashing power of PS3 miners), a guy corrects you - and you delete his posting. Because your bloated ego can't bear being wrong.

[KWH]

You are so predictable, Josh. Your defensive postings all follow the same pattern:

a) First lines and lines of jabbering not related to the subject at all.
b) Second: insulting the opponent.
c) Then, once you are caught lying, you play down the issue.

So here we go: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87934.msg1428325#msg1428325

a) Jabbering: "Tell me what all those posts ... yadda yadda yadda ..."
b) Insults: "... being too stupid to understand your ass from a hole in the ground ..."
c) Play down the issue: "... find the 3 posts that have been deleted, out of 8700... "

In fact there a way more than only 3 deleted posts. And you know that!

I never said it's only 3 posts that got deleted. I said I give you 3 examples of deleted posts. You do know the meaning of the word "example", don't you?

One is especially embarrassing for you: You share some of your superficial knowledge (hashing power of PS3 miners), a guy corrects you - and you delete his posting. Because your bloated ego can't bear being wrong.

Sure has the same tone and MO as another well "respected" member here. 

[PuertoLibre]

I think his point is that a company doesn't have to bend over at the request of non-customers. They don't owe them anything.

Someone who is a customer...repost the set of questions for Inaba then.

I'm sure there are many BFL customers that would like answers to those questions.

Seconded +10

[PuertoLibre]

@smoothie

Well, I am a customer of BFL, happily mining with their products.

I have number of pre-orders in and eagerly await those to be delivered, so I can place orders for some more mini-rigs.

I've asked some relevant questions in the past, politely, and Josh answered them all without delay, to my satisfaction.

I would not think of making myself a fool by repeating your questions though, I would not think any customer would care to do so neither.

So you spend multiples of $30,000+ dollars and you aren't interested in the timeline of the result? I am taking notes...anyone else think along these same lines?

[fcmatt]

Must suck to spend so much and have no real info. Starting to remind me of many failed kickstarter projects.

[gopher]

@ PuertoLibre

Of course I am interested in the timeline, who would not, especially when it comes to such amazing technology (compared to the GPU farm I had at the time).

But, when I placed my pre-orders I took a calculated risk - like any pre-order from any other new-start-up would impose - and the risk was that the company may not deliver timeously, pretty much same way they missed their delivery targets with the FPGAs.

I was hoping that I will get my SCc by end of October, then I extended my hope that I would get them by the end of November, and again before Christmas, and that was one difference I had from all these cry-babies - I was hoping and not pretending that I placed an order with BFL.

At the time I've paid (with hard-earned BTC, nonetheless), I was never let to believe that I was placing an order - it always has been a pre-order.

So I treat it as such - with cautious expectations and great deal of hope.

@fcmatt

You have not backed any kickstarter project, have you? Try it, the trill is refreshing!

[fcmatt]

@ PuertoLibre

Of course I am interested in the timeline, who would not, especially when it comes to such amazing technology (compared to the GPU farm I had at the time).

But, when I placed my pre-orders I took a calculated risk - like any pre-order from any other new-start-up would impose - and the risk was that the company may not deliver timeously, pretty much same way they missed their delivery targets with the FPGAs.

I was hoping that I will get my SCc by end of October, then I extended my hope that I would get them by the end of November, and again before Christmas, and that was one difference I had from all these cry-babies - I was hoping and not pretending that I placed an order with BFL.

At the time I've paid (with hard-earned BTC, nonetheless), I was never let to believe that I was placing an order - it always has been a pre-order.

So I treat it as such - with cautious expectations and great deal of hope.

@fcmatt

You have not backed any kickstarter project, have you? Try it, the trill is refreshing!

i was very close to backing the espresso machine project. i am glad I did not. last i read, about a month ago, they are still not delivering.
i do not have time to waste with people who fail. create the prototype using your own money, demo it, and then take orders. Not beg
for money to develop some dream item and give excuses for months on end. that is just sad.

[PuertoLibre]

@ PuertoLibre

Of course I am interested in the timeline, who would not, especially when it comes to such amazing technology (compared to the GPU farm I had at the time).

But, when I placed my pre-orders I took a calculated risk - like any pre-order from any other new-start-up would impose - and the risk was that the company may not deliver timeously, pretty much same way they missed their delivery targets with the FPGAs.

I was hoping that I will get my SCc by end of October, then I extended my hope that I would get them by the end of November, and again before Christmas, and that was one difference I had from all these cry-babies - I was hoping and not pretending that I placed an order with BFL.

Ok, I hear you on this.

Just for large customer reference point...As a Mini-Rig customer at what point does it become too much?

What is the psychology behind large orders? As in, what _would_ make you consider pulling out if the current trend continues? What is the main factor that you would consider the breaking point where you would personally pull your pre-order?

Is it the time or confidence that worries you the most?

-----------------------

I noticed below that you mentioned you paid with BTC rather than cash. Do you feel that is a major factor in how someone feels about their pre-order? (I paid with cash, not BTC at my own Vendor)

Does spending virtual currency (rather than fiat currency) make the wait easier? Do you believe it would make a difference if you had paid with actual cash than BTC?

---------------------
The reason I ask is because I want to understand what goes on behind "the confidence" of one customer vs "the lack of confidence" in another. I assume there has to be some kind of difference between those who hang on and stay cool vs those who complain.

At the time I've paid (with hard-earned BTC, nonetheless), I was never let to believe that I was placing an order - it always has been a pre-order.

So I treat it as such - with cautious expectations and great deal of hope.

[repentance]

i was very close to backing the espresso machine project. i am glad I did not. last i read, about a month ago, they are still not delivering.
i do not have time to waste with people who fail. create the prototype using your own money, demo it, and then take orders. Not beg
for money to develop some dream item and give excuses for months on end. that is just sad.

While it's highly probable that BFL gave an overly optimistic timeline in order to dominate the initial ASIC market, there's no evidence at all that they've used pre-order money to fund development.

It's not at all uncommon to need external funds to take a project to working prototype stage - that's a step which can be massively expensive - and there are plenty of different ways to acquire development funding.  In and of itself, needing external funding says nothing about the viability of a project or the competence of those over-seeing it.  Those who invest in such ventures are acutely aware that they may see zero return on their investment.

[PuertoLibre]

@ Gopher

The reason I ask is because I am currently of the thought that large orders are coming from the wealthy who can afford to lose vs those who make smaller orders and can't afford to lose.

On top of that I have always assumed that larger customers (having more money) can afford to wait longer because their investment pays off greatly compared to the smaller customer with a small purchase.

---------------

You've brought to light an interesting angle though. If you pay for an order with BTC (which you normally didn't do anything to earn it besides construct a rig and power it on) does that mean less if you lose it than someone whom paid with fiat cash?

The question arises is BTC less valuable if you lose it vs actual cash that you physically work for to earn it?

It has got me thinking. I'd love to poll the people who complain the most and figure out what their payment method was like vs those who didn't complain very much.

I'd love your input on this from an actual customer of a larger order.

[gopher]

@ Gopher

The reason I ask is because I am currently of the thought that large orders are coming from the wealthy who can afford to lose vs those who make smaller orders and can't afford to lose.

On top of that I have always assumed that larger customers (having more money) can afford to wait longer because their investment pays off greatly compared to the smaller customer with a small purchase.

---------------

You've brought to light an interesting angle though. If you pay for an order with BTC (which you normally didn't do anything to earn it besides construct a rig and power it on) does that mean less if you lose it than someone whom paid with fiat cash?

The question arises is BTC less valuable if you lose it vs actual cash that you physically work for to earn it?

It has got me thinking. I'd love to poll the people who complain the most and figure out what their payment method was like vs those who didn't complain very much.

I'd love your input on this from an actual customer of a larger order.

Interesting angle to explore, but I do not thing there is much merit in it.

No one, rich or poor, plans to loose when investing into something.

But, different people risk their moneys differently, with very opposite motives, and very opposite strategies.

The people who earned their riches themselves, take risk willingly, knowing that the higher the risk, higher the potential return, if it happens. If it does not, they do not get surprised, some get very emotional though (as I said, no one plans to loose, and loosing hurts!)

Poor people are naturally risk averse, and by definition risk-less venture do not pay back a lot, if any.

Since the first exchange opened, BTC=cash, at least I do not value the cash in my bank account and the BTCs in my wallet any differently - value is value irrespective of the currency.

What I do not understand is, if someone is not prepared to take the risk of loosing his/hers moneys, why do they pre-order something from vendors who either don't have the proven record of delivering on time and on specification, or have proven record of not delivering on time; and second, why would they go and cancel a pre-order - did someone forced them to pre-order?

One thing that makes Bitcoin very different from any other ventures is that one cannot miss this train if he just waits few months or years. That's what I advise all my friends, if you want to get involved, want to invest in Bitcoin one way or another, don't rush, look around for as long as you are comfortable to form informed opinion of your own, but one thing is for sure - the nature of Bitcoin will not let you miss this train - at any ingress point, the profitability curve remains the same.

What varies is the risk - one can pre-order ASIC based mining equipment today, or wait for 6 months and order it then - in both cases, the ROI will be in the similar range, but the risk in the first case will be huge, and in the second case almost none.

So why rush if you cannot palate the risk?

[jddebug]

+1

@ Gopher

The reason I ask is because I am currently of the thought that large orders are coming from the wealthy who can afford to lose vs those who make smaller orders and can't afford to lose.

On top of that I have always assumed that larger customers (having more money) can afford to wait longer because their investment pays off greatly compared to the smaller customer with a small purchase.

---------------

You've brought to light an interesting angle though. If you pay for an order with BTC (which you normally didn't do anything to earn it besides construct a rig and power it on) does that mean less if you lose it than someone whom paid with fiat cash?

The question arises is BTC less valuable if you lose it vs actual cash that you physically work for to earn it?

It has got me thinking. I'd love to poll the people who complain the most and figure out what their payment method was like vs those who didn't complain very much.

I'd love your input on this from an actual customer of a larger order.

Interesting angle to explore, but I do not thing there is much merit in it.

No one, rich or poor, plans to loose when investing into something.

But, different people risk their moneys differently, with very opposite motives, and very opposite strategies.

The people who earned their riches themselves, take risk willingly, knowing that the higher the risk, higher the potential return, if it happens. If it does not, they do not get surprised, some get very emotional though (as I said, no one plans to loose, and loosing hurts!)

Poor people are naturally risk averse, and by definition risk-less venture do not pay back a lot, if any.

Since the first exchange opened, BTC=cash, at least I do not value the cash in my bank account and the BTCs in my wallet any differently - value is value irrespective of the currency.

What I do not understand is, if someone is not prepared to take the risk of loosing his/hers moneys, why do they pre-order something from vendors who either don't have the proven record of delivering on time and on specification, or have proven record of not delivering on time; and second, why would they go and cancel a pre-order - did someone forced them to pre-order?

One thing that makes Bitcoin very different from any other ventures is that one cannot miss this train if he just waits few months or years. That's what I advise all my friends, if you want to get involved, want to invest in Bitcoin one way or another, don't rush, look around for as long as you are comfortable to form informed opinion of your own, but one thing is for sure - the nature of Bitcoin will not let you miss this train - at any ingress point, the profitability curve remains the same.

What varies is the risk - one can pre-order ASIC based mining equipment today, or wait for 6 months and order it then - in both cases, the ROI will be in the similar range, but the risk in the first case will be huge, and in the second case almost none.

So why rush if you cannot palate the risk?

[Askit2]

Because not everyone views it as an investment. Lets say I put in my money instead of buying a BFL single into BTC directly. Price was $3 per BTC. Over almost a year I would have made $10 per BTC. On $600 that is 200 BTC for wow $2000. Instead I waited and paid for a BFL single later (avoided some risk but not all) I have made about 900$ this way.

I didn't say I invested in a BFL single because to me I wasn't investing. I was buying an income stream. That isn't to say money wasn't invested in this project. I only intend to convey this isn't a direct risk for profit play. I paid for a device that will produce something. In a way I invested in a business well a side business. Now depending on the jargon you could phrase what I did next two wildly different ways.

1. I spent my income to upgrade and expand my income stream.
2. I re-invested my profits (they aren't) into my operation.

As an aside at this point my upgrade was returned capitol not profit anything above the initial amount is profit though.

To me I with perfect future knowledge could have made more then 1000% profit. Knowing that there are dips etc and pulling capitol out when exchange tops and reinvesting it into BTC when the exchange rate drops. Reality is that I wouldn't have likely made that much. I didn't intend so much to try getting my initial investment back as $'s but to increase my $'s per month income.

When I paid for a unit I wrote that money off as lost. That's right I expected to get income not have my hardware appreciate or my BTC actually go up in value. I expected at lease a 10 month window where my income stream would make me about even. After that everything would be gravy. Luck was with me and I could upgrade far faster. In less then 10 months I have paid out more then my initial expense.

I don't worry as much as some because this is the cost of doing business. I paid for hardware to perform a task. On expectation that better and more efficient hardware would be available I paid to upgrade to newer hardware. Did delays potentially cost money? Yes. Could I depending on when they ship be better off having done things differently sure. Am I out money? Not really. I have an order that will get filled. My point is that although I could have paid for additional income prior to ordering an upgrade. I didn't knowing that I likely woulnd't have enough to pay for both upgrades with my income stream. I can't gurantee the future price of BTC. I can guess it won't go back to 3$ per BTC any time soon. I am not making less money on my unit then I had been before the annoucement. Or at least not a lot less.

[crazyates]

Because not everyone views it as an investment. Lets say I put in my money instead of buying a BFL single into BTC directly. Price was $3 per BTC. Over almost a year I would have made $10 per BTC. On $600 that is 200 BTC for wow $2000. Instead I waited and paid for a BFL single later (avoided some risk but not all) I have made about 900$ this way.

Well next time I run into a time machine, I'll be sure to go back to July and warn you. Sounds good?

[Acejam]

I haven't followed this thread from start to finish - frankly I don't have the time to. What I do know is this - I ordered (4) SC Singles on 7/26/2012. It's been over 5 months now. Where are my products?

[SgtSpike]

I haven't followed this thread from start to finish - frankly I don't have the time to. What I do know is this - I ordered (4) SC Singles on 7/26/2012. It's been over 5 months now. Where are my products?

They haven't been produced yet.  Feel free to cancel and get a refund.

[boonies4u]

I haven't followed this thread from start to finish - frankly I don't have the time to. What I do know is this - I ordered (4) SC Singles on 7/26/2012. It's been over 5 months now. Where are my products?

So... rather than actually ask BFL... you post a question publicly on a thread board full of trolls. Good job.

[crazyates]

I haven't followed this thread from start to finish - frankly I don't have the time to.

To be fair, this thread isn't the best source for current information. For that, check out the official Butterfly Labs forum blog.