Bitmain's Released Antminer S9, World's First 16nm Miner Ready to Order

[traxor]

LOL BTC3.2 for something that will never mine half that.

If you had %100 free electricity you could never ever ever come close to breaking even on this.

Except that we don't live in a static world.

Difficulty will decrease, price will rise, etc.

I've never regretted buying in early in the past, and expect this year to be no different.

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[not.you]

But some of us already have BTC that we mined.  You buy these things in BTC so it makes sense to consider ROI in BTC.  If you guys are talking about buying BTC with dollars and then trying to ROI in dollars that is not the same conversation that other people are having here.

[alh]

But some of us already have BTC that we mined.  You buy these things in BTC so it makes sense to consider ROI in BTC.  If you guys are talking about buying BTC with dollars and then trying to ROI in dollars that is not the same conversation that other people are having here.

This sounds good and make a great deal of sense. The only flaw in the "BTC only" logic is that almost nobody has predictable operating costs (i.e. Electricty) that is priced in BTC. Hence for virtually everybody, the price of BTC impacts their profitability computations, even if you only care to use BTC as your metric.

[not.you]

But some of us already have BTC that we mined.  You buy these things in BTC so it makes sense to consider ROI in BTC.  If you guys are talking about buying BTC with dollars and then trying to ROI in dollars that is not the same conversation that other people are having here.

This sounds good and make a great deal of sense. The only flaw in the "BTC only" logic is that almost nobody has predictable operating costs (i.e. Electricty) that is priced in BTC. Hence for virtually everybody, the price of BTC impacts their profitability computations, even if you only care to use BTC as your metric.

If I pay 3 BTC for the miner, the electricity cost doesn't change the original calculation.  Whatever percentage of the earnings has to be sold off along the way for fiat in order to pay for electricity doesn't change the fact that I still need to earn 3 BTC from the miner to ROI in the long term.  BTC to fiat exchange rates can complicate how much BTC has to be sold off along the way, but the long term amount of BTC that has to be accumulated remains the same. 

Otherwise we are back to another conversation that has been rehashed in this thread repeatedly which is the "buy BTC and hold" or "buy the miner" conversation.

My point is just that when someone posts some version of "these will never mine the BTC they cost, why are people buying them?" and then someone else posts about how buying the miner is gambling on BTC going up, they are having two different conversations.  Which is exactly what happened in the posts preceding this.

[Cassey]

If I pay 3 BTC for the miner, the electricity cost doesn't change the original calculation.  Whatever percentage of the earnings has to be sold off along the way for fiat in order to pay for electricity doesn't change the fact that I still need to earn 3 BTC from the miner to ROI in the long term.  BTC to fiat exchange rates can complicate how much BTC has to be sold off along the way, but the long term amount of BTC that has to be accumulated remains the same.  

Otherwise we are back to another conversation that has been rehashed in this thread repeatedly which is the "buy BTC and hold" or "buy the miner" conversation.

My point is just that when someone posts some version of "these will never mine the BTC they cost, why are people buying them?" and then someone else posts about how buying the miner is gambling on BTC going up, they are having two different conversations.  Which is exactly what happened in the posts preceding this.

I've actually found myself at a different mental spot, probably delusional:  So long as my miners can produce enough BTC to buy the next round of technology (based on power consumption levels), and produces enough excess that I can cover the power used to do the first part, I'm happy.  If that excess allows me to buy a few things along the way with BTC, all the better.  So far, that has been the case for me.   Purse.io provides a convenient Amazon vector, NewEgg takes BTC directly, and so does Gary Johnson for President - good enough for me.  I do that with a power budget is about 9KW/hour, enough to roughly run (6) S7s and/or S9s plus a bit of older scrypt gear.

I judge my success when new technologies appear, so did so when the S7 came out, and again when the S9 came out.  This is a hobby for me, and my BTC balance is influenced by other things, like surprise profits on alt coins I created 2 years ago, but that is all part of the hobby.   e.g.  I've "wasted" a ton of money on techs that never paid out (remember Antminer U1s and GridSeeds?), won fantastically on others, and have some that only time will tell.  However, overall, both me and my spouse (who helps on the spending side) are happy.  In fact, my spouse encouraged my recent S9 B5 purchase, which I suspect is reasonably rare.

[Erumara]

If I pay 3 BTC for the miner, the electricity cost doesn't change the original calculation.  Whatever percentage of the earnings has to be sold off along the way for fiat in order to pay for electricity doesn't change the fact that I still need to earn 3 BTC from the miner to ROI in the long term.  BTC to fiat exchange rates can complicate how much BTC has to be sold off along the way, but the long term amount of BTC that has to be accumulated remains the same.  

Otherwise we are back to another conversation that has been rehashed in this thread repeatedly which is the "buy BTC and hold" or "buy the miner" conversation.

My point is just that when someone posts some version of "these will never mine the BTC they cost, why are people buying them?" and then someone else posts about how buying the miner is gambling on BTC going up, they are having two different conversations.  Which is exactly what happened in the posts preceding this.

I've actually found myself at a different mental spot, probably delusional:  So long as my miners can produce enough BTC to buy the next round of technology (based on power consumption levels), and produces enough excess that I can cover the power used to do the first part, I'm happy.  If that excess allows me to buy a few things along the way with BTC, all the better.  So far, that has been the case for me.   Purse.io provides a convenient Amazon vector, NewEgg takes BTC directly, and so does Gary Johnson for President - good enough for me.  I do that with a power budget is about 9KW/hour, enough to roughly run (6) S7s and/or S9s plus a bit of older scrypt gear.

I judge my success when new technologies appear, so did so when the S7 came out, and again when the S9 came out.  This is a hobby for me, and my BTC balance is influenced by other things, like surprise profits on alt coins I created 2 years ago, but that is all part of the hobby.   e.g.  I've "wasted" a ton of money on techs that never paid out (remember Antminer U1s and GridSeeds?), won fantastically on others, and have some that only time will tell.  However, overall, both me and my spouse (who helps on the spending side) are happy.  In fact, my spouse encouraged my recent S9 B5 purchase, which I suspect is reasonably rare.

Rare indeed, it's taken 4 months of running these miners before the wife even started to warm to the idea.
Of course it didn't help I had to tear open walls in the recently renovated basement to do so, but so far the tongue-lashing has been worth it.

Edit: Adding picture of "grounds for divorce" as she put it.

[Cassey]

Rare indeed, it's taken 4 months of running these miners before the wife even started to warm to the idea.
Of course it didn't help I had to tear open walls in the recently renovated basement to do so, but so far the tongue-lashing has been worth it.

We actually had the venting changed in our house, with the heat from my bitcoin room in the basement being pumped into the air return of the first floor furnace and being directed into the sun-room above the bitcoin room.  Very nice in the winter, we actually had windows open almost all winter long (and we are in the mid-west, with winters around 32F and often below).  So either free heat and paid electricity for bitcoins, or expensive electrical resistance based heat and free electricity for bitcoins... lol.  Its once of the reasons I find calculating ROI tough.

[traxor]

Awesome setup Erumara!!!

THANKS for the IDEA!!!

Yeah -- it is EASY in the winter -- summer is when it is tough.

But, unlike those number crunchers who doom and gloom each and EVERY year -- I am just THRILLED to get the latest and greatest miners added to my hobby.  I've been mining since 2011, and although I've lost a lot of coin to Gox, Cloud Mining scam, blockchain, and others (not to be mentioned), I'm STILL way ahead.

It is a VERY PROFITABLE hobby -- unlike MOST hobbies.

If I lose THIS YEAR -- I'm STILL way ahead!!!

That is the way I look at it...

 

[notlist3d]

Awesome setup Erumara!!!

THANKS for the IDEA!!!

Yeah -- it is EASY in the winter -- summer is when it is tough.

But, unlike those number crunchers who doom and gloom each and EVERY year -- I am just THRILLED to get the latest and greatest miners added to my hobby.  I've been mining since 2011, and although I've lost a lot of coin to Gox, Cloud Mining scam, blockchain, and others (not to be mentioned), I'm STILL way ahead.

It is a VERY PROFITABLE hobby -- unlike MOST hobbies.

If I lose THIS YEAR -- I'm STILL way ahead!!!

That is the way I look at it...

 

Summer mining is not that bad it just takes finding out what you need in your area.  It is very location based as there are multiple way's for cooling, and different climates have best way's for them.

I sadly am not in a place where evaporation cooling works in my weather.  So I use lot's of CFM's of fan's in my mining area it took last summer to fine tune it in but this summer was easy with it all in place.   So really just takes once on setting up for summer.  And it depends on how many watt's of miners your running on how much heat you have to deal with.

If not a lot of miners much easier.  I have two big fan's and a professional gable fan that do good for my mining area.   Again goes back to fine tuning I had to get a professional gable fan as regular house one's were just not exhausting enough heat for amount of miners I run sometimes.  Here is my journey to find a good way to cool my miners - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1020826.0

[edonkey]

But some of us already have BTC that we mined.  You buy these things in BTC so it makes sense to consider ROI in BTC.  If you guys are talking about buying BTC with dollars and then trying to ROI in dollars that is not the same conversation that other people are having here.

This sounds good and make a great deal of sense. The only flaw in the "BTC only" logic is that almost nobody has predictable operating costs (i.e. Electricty) that is priced in BTC. Hence for virtually everybody, the price of BTC impacts their profitability computations, even if you only care to use BTC as your metric.

If I pay 3 BTC for the miner, the electricity cost doesn't change the original calculation.  Whatever percentage of the earnings has to be sold off along the way for fiat in order to pay for electricity doesn't change the fact that I still need to earn 3 BTC from the miner to ROI in the long term.  BTC to fiat exchange rates can complicate how much BTC has to be sold off along the way, but the long term amount of BTC that has to be accumulated remains the same. 

Otherwise we are back to another conversation that has been rehashed in this thread repeatedly which is the "buy BTC and hold" or "buy the miner" conversation.

My point is just that when someone posts some version of "these will never mine the BTC they cost, why are people buying them?" and then someone else posts about how buying the miner is gambling on BTC going up, they are having two different conversations.  Which is exactly what happened in the posts preceding this.

This. Well said.

Needless to say, I'm not buying either B6 or B7 for precisely the reason that they are very unlikely to earn back the BTC put into them.

Sure the difficulty will go down after the halving (in under 17 hours at the time of this writing). But based simply on the history of the last halving, my guess is that we'll see no more than a 10% drop in difficulty over the next 30 days, then it will be back to where it is now. That won't be enough to pull in BTC ROI to the point where I'm comfortable.

I just wish that people would stop buying what is clearly an overpriced miner. Everyone who's doing that is just lining Bitmain's pockets with insane profit and delaying the inevitable price drop that the rest of us are waiting for.

[traxor]

My math had difficulty dropping to 77-78% of current with a slow pull up through September.

HOLD bitcoin until 800...

EASY ROI by November...

Am I wrong???

EDIT:  My electric is .058 -.096 KWH (variable spot market -- can spike higher if I'm not watching and careful)

[philipma1957]

My math had difficulty dropping to 77-78% of current with a slow pull up through September.

HOLD bitcoin until 800...

EASY ROI by November...

Am I wrong???

EDIT:  My electric is .058 -.096 KWH (variable spot market -- can spike higher if I'm not watching and careful)

I see the 1500ph becoming 1250ph.  but WTF do i really know?

[edonkey]

My math had difficulty dropping to 77-78% of current with a slow pull up through September.

HOLD bitcoin until 800...

EASY ROI by November...

Am I wrong???

EDIT:  My electric is .058 -.096 KWH (variable spot market -- can spike higher if I'm not watching and careful)

I see the 1500ph becoming 1250ph.  but WTF do i really know?

None of us really know what will happen. My number is very simplistic and based on the last halving event.

Phil, I think you've put more thought into the problem by trying to estimate the number of various models that will become unprofitable. That's definitely another way to look at it.

One thing I do know is that it's very tempting to be overly optimistic regarding difficulty speculation. After being burned early on, I try to be disciplined and pessimistic.

Although I too have been guilty of wiggling the difficulty down in the mining calculators, just to see if I can eke out ROI if the best case happens

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a difficulty speculation thread though. Your difficulty guessing thread is the right place to talk about this.

[notlist3d]

My math had difficulty dropping to 77-78% of current with a slow pull up through September.

HOLD bitcoin until 800...

EASY ROI by November...

Am I wrong???

EDIT:  My electric is .058 -.096 KWH (variable spot market -- can spike higher if I'm not watching and careful)

I see the 1500ph becoming 1250ph.  but WTF do i really know?

None of us really know what will happen. My number is very simplistic and based on the last halving event.

Phil, I think you've put more thought into the problem by trying to estimate the number of various models that will become unprofitable. That's definitely another way to look at it.

One thing I do know is that it's very tempting to be overly optimistic regarding difficulty speculation. After being burned early on, I try to be disciplined and pessimistic.

Although I too have been guilty of wiggling the difficulty down in the mining calculators, just to see if I can eke out ROI if the best case happens

Anyway, I don't want to turn this into a difficulty speculation thread though. Your difficulty guessing thread is the right place to talk about this.

And on difficulty I'm a tad optimistic that some old gear will finally be taken offline.  I think there are some that have been running a LONG time.    Now these places will still have cheap electricity but hopefully some old gear comes down when new gear goes up.

So I still think gear coming offline could be good for miners.  But on the flip-side if they all upgrade.... could see bigger hashrate gain.  But I'm hoping some go offline and do not upgrade.  Do not know how realistic this is though as they have info-structure in most of these places.... so upgrades are likely.

[sloopy]

Physics disagrees with you, sir.

Okay then you explain it genius.

Are you simple?  You clearly don't understand how switched power supplies work.  Most modern power supplies can work on a range of AC input voltage from 100 to 240V, and yet they still produce a stable 12V DC output independent of AC voltage.  My server PSU's require 200+V, which I have measured 236V consistently at the plug.  Also, read my post from earlier:

As to the comment about AC wall voltage, read my case again and you will see that A) I had 9x S7's and 12x S5's hosted using the same AC power and B) that specific 4000W PSU was powering 1 other S7's and an S5, neither of which suffered from spontaneous self-combustion.

Input voltage had nothing to do with this failure, move along genius.

Edit: Seriously, look at the boards:



These boards failed from the inside out, possibly similar in failure to the Asicminer Prisma? I don't really know why, but I do know that the other miners on the same PSU and same building did not suffer the same problem.

like a said Obviously you don't your the one showing the burnt S7 not me. Just a question poof how many PSU's you have on one breaker think about that poofy.

That picture sure makes you look like you really know what you are doing lol.


 

Why drag poor 'ol poofy into this? I have been quiet.
Also, are you drunk?

No you were when you hooked up that S7 I cant wait to see what you do with a S9 lol lol. 

you are the one responsible for the Chernobyl meltdown lol lol 

1. You are making points which show you to be extremely immature and inexperienced with mining equipment, electronics, electricity, and this forum.
2. You are arguing with Sidehack and Finsky. I recommend you read some of their contributions to the mining community. This alone = see #1
3. The post I quoted is you thinking you are replying to Finsky but it is someone else. Again, see #1

I recommend you take a step back, read, and learn a bit more about mining equipment before replying to anyone or posting in the hardware section.

Anything else = see #1 and if you do not care or understand then you are obviously too thick or a troll.

This is not a CoD / MMORPG lobby chat.
Please attempt to understand the difference.

[Tupsu]

Okay really Albert Einstein lol. Just by your statement tells me your a pathetic feeble-minded fool who thinks he knows these things lol lol. But I give credit to those guys anyway.
Is your name sloopy or poofy lol.

Based on the posts, if someone is thinking he knows these things, it's you.
Also, please go and troll elsewhere.
You bring nothing useful here with your posts.

One useful post ...

ah Bitmain finally put up the  new firmware so the S9 will work with NICEHASH. Except when you try to use p=? and the password line!!! at least you can hash now.

[d57heinz]

just a thought but my knowledge is limited compared to most here.  If you ran three miner off one psu.. what if you had voltage drop which would increase the amperage running thru the miner .. could be this scenario.  http://ask.metafilter.com/244859/Voltage-drop-amperage-increase


"If you have switch mode power supplies (e.g. practically all IT equipment these days) then when the voltage drops they will pull more current to keep up their output. If your voltage sags a bit because of too high a demand then they all pull more current and you're boned."

Best regards
d57heinz

[Moria843]

S9-B7 3.2 BTC???

I've been mining since CPU days and still have two S7s up, but believe the above is not a good investment unless you have free electricity.

But, it's OK to spend money on a hobby. I have a friend who spends $450/month playing golf.

[iglasses]

LOL BTC3.2 for something that will never mine half that.

If you had %100 free electricity you could never ever ever come close to breaking even on this.

Except that we don't live in a static world.

Difficulty will decrease, price will rise, etc.

I've never regretted buying in early in the past, and expect this year to be no different.

wat?
WTF does difficulty or price have to do with anything?  If you have BTC3.2 and spend it on one of these miners you are turning BTC3.2 into some amount LESS than BTC3.2.  CASE CLOSED.
You cannot justify it by talking about difficulty or price or any other random event that have zero bearing on the math.  Buying one of these miners takes an amount of bitcoin and turns it into LESS bitcoin than what you started with.
WAKE UP PEOPLE.

[scyth3]

LOL BTC3.2 for something that will never mine half that.

If you had %100 free electricity you could never ever ever come close to breaking even on this.

Except that we don't live in a static world.

Difficulty will decrease, price will rise, etc.

I've never regretted buying in early in the past, and expect this year to be no different.

wat?
WTF does difficulty or price have to do with anything?  If you have BTC3.2 and spend it on one of these miners you are turning BTC3.2 into some amount LESS than BTC3.2.  CASE CLOSED.
You cannot justify it by talking about difficulty or price or any other random event that have zero bearing on the math.  Buying one of these miners takes an amount of bitcoin and turns it into LESS bitcoin than what you started with.
WAKE UP PEOPLE.

+1