[ANN] [ETC] Ethereum Classic: Immutable Smart Contracts

[redsn0w]

I am a member of 2 teams already on slack but they are not ethereumclassic teams.  I just get the message "If you're trying to join a specific team that isn't listed here, you can try contacting your Team Administrator for an invitation."

What happens when you click on https://ethereumclassic.slack.com/ ?  Should be an option to sign up....

Try this:

 - http://ethereumclassic.herokuapp.com

[greenuser]

I am a member of 2 teams already on slack but they are not ethereumclassic teams.  I just get the message "If you're trying to join a specific team that isn't listed here, you can try contacting your Team Administrator for an invitation."

What happens when you click on https://ethereumclassic.slack.com/ ?  Should be an option to sign up....

It takes me to the sign in page, no option to sign up!  I can still log in to my other slack channels.  I will message them

[redsn0w]

I am a member of 2 teams already on slack but they are not ethereumclassic teams.  I just get the message "If you're trying to join a specific team that isn't listed here, you can try contacting your Team Administrator for an invitation."

What happens when you click on https://ethereumclassic.slack.com/ ?  Should be an option to sign up....

It takes me to the sign in page, no option to sign up!  I can still log in to my other slack channels.  I will message them

I am a member of 2 teams already on slack but they are not ethereumclassic teams.  I just get the message "If you're trying to join a specific team that isn't listed here, you can try contacting your Team Administrator for an invitation."

What happens when you click on https://ethereumclassic.slack.com/ ?  Should be an option to sign up....

Try this:

 - http://ethereumclassic.herokuapp.com

[Longsnowsm]

I managed to get signed in and following the discussion there now.  Thanks for the links!

[greenuser]

 - http://ethereumclassic.herokuapp.com

@redsnOw, thanks, that worked  

[MalReynolds]

Repost with the correct link.


Join us on:

http://ethereumclassic.herokuapp.com

[MalReynolds]

bitnovosti, who is the same guy that started the ETC slack channel at http://ethereumclassic.herokuapp.com ,  also runs an excellent Russian ETC website.  Well worth reading now and monitoring in the future.  

Let's face it, Lenin would have chosen ETC over the czarist ETH.

Open this in Chrome and select translate:

https://ethclassic.ru/

[suchmoon]

Let's face it, Lenin would have chosen ETC over the czarist ETH.

I think you got it backwards, ETC is supposed to be the absolute "code is law" capitalism vs the communist ETH where the party decides what's best for the people

[greenuser]

Maybe ETC will be like UK.... 
HYBRID - Capitalist ideology with socialist based welfare provision.  And we have rules for voting …. and if we vote for a fork, we agree to a fork. 

[redsn0w]

- http://ethereumclassic.herokuapp.com

@redsnOw, thanks, that worked  

You're welcome, if you want there is also a telegram group with 500 members:


https://telegram.me/ethclassic

or simply search @ethclassic on the telegram search bar.

[greenuser]

bitnovosti, who is the same guy that started the ETC slack channel at http://ethereumclassic.herokuapp.com ,  also runs an excellent Russian ETC website.  Well worth reading now and monitoring in the future.  

Let's face it, Lenin would have chosen ETC over the czarist ETH.

Open this in Chrome and select translate:

https://ethclassic.ru/

Yandex Browser auto translate,    you got to hand it to these Russian people, they are smart.....  and good at space!

[iCEBREAKER]

The upcoming ETH switch to Casper is a key decision point for ETC.  I personally ETC should not follow ETH into becoming a Proof of Stake coin.  If general agreement for this point could be reached now, it would be a powerful inducement for miners to switch from ETH to ETC now. 

I would like to open a debate over PoW vs PoS and FORKS

The difficulty miners experience will increase dramatically very soon in our current (PoW), we need to sort that.    This can only be done via a fork so we need to ALL be in agreement unless you want a “Splinter Classic” chain as well as a Classic chain.

I asked Charles if we could soft fork to fix it. --- 

Charles: "It can only be defused by a hard fork. It requires changing rules in the protocol that current nodes would reject."
 
greenuser: I have often wondered what would happen if it was just very very difficult to mine? Would it not become more scarce? More valuable?

Charles: "That would destroy any PoW algorithm based blockchain. Mining difficulty is continually adjusted to allow the network to be secure and allow blocks to be solved within a targeted time frame. Setting the difficulty arbitrarily high, would discourage miners from mining because it would make blocks harder to solve, and therefore they would generate less rewards for a greater expenditure of computational work. You would have to increase the market value of that coin exponentially to compensate, and that is impossible."

Please post your feelings....

I plan to put this to Charles, what do people think?

Muh feelings:

0.  We can't switch ETC to PoW "right meow."  We can't even credibility announce such an intention, only float the trial balloon.  Which PoW?  Who is going to code it all up and commit to maintenance?  What about PoS supporters?  Do we just tell them to fuck off to BailoutEdition?

1.  It's too soon to be sure about anything except No Bailouts.  ETC is still defining itself and bootstrapping an ecosystem.  We must table any notion of a "final vote" about Po[X] in the ETC community until after BailoutEdition has been running Casper or whatever for at least two weeks or, ideally, 6 months.

2.  The greater the divergence from ETH, the more dev resources are required to maintain ETC.  We should prepare for both contingencies, with low-maintenance minimally divergent PoS and high-maintenance maximally divergent PoW roadmaps, along with prioritization considerations for something in the middle.

3.  On PoS.  Do we copy ETH's work no matter what, or is adoption contingent on some notion of fairness/equality/decentralization?  My instinct is to eschew minimum staking amounts (either all wallets stake or none do) to avoid the centralizing rich-get-richer combinatorics Peter Todd's recent paper on pool mining describes.  We don't want any fucking Masternodes compounding their stake and control.

I don't like PoS.  I've seen the Theft -> FUD -> Panic -> Rollback movie before and it doesn't have a happy ending.  It's harder to steal a mine in China than some private key in a server (unless you are the PLA  ).

Peercoin is "cheating" using checkpoints; Decred has some advanced gambling based system that's mind-bogglingly complex.  Charlie Hos has a version that is reportedly validated in some kind of math/crypto model.  He's paying for 3 devs, but are they sufficient to support such an incompatibility-intensifying branch?

4. On PoW.  SHA-512 might be the KISS solution.  But But ASICS.  Boolberry's Cryptonite-derived Wild Keccak memory reqs grow with the blockchain so that's cool.  What are the pros/cons of just keeping Dagger minus the diff bomb?  The obvious question is how do we redefine the emission curve without Pope Vitalik to guide us?

5.  The Golden Rule.  All of this brainstorming doesn't make a difference without development.  And devs are expensive.  As in Bitcoin, governance is not a democracy but rather an extreme meritocracy.  He who makes the Code makes the Rules.  And that is fitting because they have to put out the fires when it all turns into a flaming tire-filled dumpster.  If the miners want to stay PoW, they must provide for the requisite dozens of devs and/or support the Genesis Foundation.

6.  Self-awareness.  Let's all savor the irony of ETC setting out to create a controversial hard fork immediately after rejecting ETH for that exact reason.   

[suchmoon]

6.  Self-awareness.  Let's all savor the irony of ETC setting out to create a controversial hard fork immediately after rejecting ETH for that exact reason.   

Keeping Dagger and removing the diff bomb isn't controversial. It only becomes controversial if all that scope creep is brought in.

[iCEBREAKER]

a great victory for classic. martin from gnosis was representing the forked eth, what an embarrassment he was.

As malreynolds said, "Please study this video and watch for tells." great saying!

That guy is the perfect ambassador for the Bailout Edition.

He actually believes mutability via 3rd party arbitration is a good thing (Because ZOMG Bad Guys Are Bad!).

What a fucking buffoonish control freak; he couldn't grok the ethos if you gave him a map, flashlight, and 12 Eagle Scouts.   

The Jaxx dude, who was until that point doing a great job of being neutral and ecumenical, just lost it and told him to change the false advertising of "immutable/unstoppable" on ETH's web page.   

[DeCrypterManiac]

I was mining on Nanopool since launch and since my estimates are more and more below whattomine's calculator I started to point one rig to supernova for comparison and made a interesting discovery:


Nanopool:



Nano pays me for the time I was mining about 0.133832 ETC


I've had a second rig, exactly same setup and same hashrate point at supernova while I was mining at nano:




So supernova pays me about 0.25 ETC within exactly the same time..
THIS IS 50% LESS ON NANO !!!!

I've pointed my rigs now to a few other pools and will compare too, something is clearly wrong here !!!


PS: Yes, I waited a bit to get everything mature on Nanopool as well - nothing changed !
And yes, I started at exactly the same time, so difficulty was the same as well !

[iCEBREAKER]

6.  Self-awareness.  Let's all savor the irony of ETC setting out to create a controversial hard fork immediately after rejecting ETH for that exact reason.   

Keeping Dagger and removing the diff bomb isn't controversial. It only becomes controversial if all that scope creep is brought in.

The scope creep is already here; we're soaking in it!   

It may be an intrinsic entailment, as removing the diff bomb effectively creates an eternal PoW coin, which is equivalent to a codebase+protocol divergence bomb when ETH goes PoS. 

And (especially) for fans of PoS, that is controversial.  (Let's note many PoS supporters think PoW causes climate change and wastes energy, so they are ideologically bound to that preference with very tight couplings.)

But I take your point.  We can do the minimum now, and put off the controversial until an issue is forced, thus providing clarity and defanging controversy.

[greenuser]

@ iCEBREAKER Have you considered relaxation?  Moreover; your argument would be at most critiqued and at least listened to if you toned down the language.  Would you let your Grandmother, Mother or your children read this thread?   If not, just think of all those potential crypto customers you will be losing.   

However, if you tone down the vocals and contribute to the debate, you will be made welcome.

[greenuser]

I was mining on Nanopool since launch and since my estimates are more and more below whattomine's calculator I started to point one rig to supernova for comparison and made a interesting discovery:


Nanopool:



Nano pays me for the time I was mining about 0.133832 ETC


I've had a second rig, exactly same setup and same hashrate point at supernova while I was mining at nano:




So supernova pays me about 0.25 ETC within exactly the same time..
THIS IS 50% LESS ON NANO !!!!

I've pointed my rigs now to a few other pools and will compare too, something is clearly wrong here !!!


PS: Yes, I waited a bit to get everything mature on Nanopool as well - nothing changed !
And yes, I started at exactly the same time, so difficulty was the same as well !

Very interesting.  I have some hashpower on nano.  Let us know how you get on. 
Looks like i will be switching to supranove if that is the case.  I mine groestlcoin at supranova without issue.

Not too keen on having all my eggs in one basket

Remember supranova are giving a 10% bonus ATM and diff has come down a little.

[Mrpumperitis]

Im sure pos also allows for Scalability and many more extra features that are not possible on pow.
Hawk and ZKsnarks are just two of many...
Cryptographic mixers - essentially, the ZK-SNARK verification enforces the rule that if you put one coin in you can take one coin and only one coin out, but the input-output mapping is completely hidden.
    Hawk - essentially, smart contracts with encrypted state, where the full power of the blockchain is still used to verify that state transitions are correct because anyone updating the state needs to include a ZK-SNARK proving that the change from the old encrypted state to the new encrypted state is a valid state transition (proving all of this without revealing what the decrypted old or new states, or the decrypted transaction data, is!).
https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/4v2ug3/zksnarks_zero_knowledge_proofs_now_possible_via/

Hawk: The Blockchain Model of Cryptography and
Privacy-Preserving Smart Contracts
https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/675.pdf

[iCEBREAKER]

@ iCEBREAKER Have you considered relaxation?  Moreover; your argument would be at most critiqued and at least listened to if you toned down the language.  Would you let your Grandmother, Mother or your children read this thread?   If not, just think of all those potential crypto customers you will be losing.   

However, if you tone down the vocals and contribute to the debate, you will be made welcome.

Already contributed to the debate.  But thanks for the nanny finger waggling.

I think we're all adults (or at least teens) here.  Perhaps there's a browser plug-in you may use to remove or alter the words that hurt your widdle fweeelings.

Back on topic, are you the one who thinks PoW wastes energy, causing Manbearpig to send hurricanes after orphans and kittens?

You can relax about that, because mining is concentrated near surplus (ie free) energy, and the sun controls the climate.