Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com

[ujka]

I was under the impression that VAT didn't apply if the product was being shipped out of the EU?  Was that totally wrong?  (I'm in the US)

You're right.
 (corrected post)
Although VAT must be included in EVERY price advertised in EU, it can be deduced if goods are shipped outside EU.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/international/exports/goods.htm
The link is for UK, but I think rules are the same for all EU countries.

[Anenome5]

The big worry is who the unknown players are. Yifu himself said at the recent Bitcoin '13, there could be wealthy vc's developing their own asics for their own use and if they started in Feb, you wouldn't know for a few months before coming online. So their potential impact is a huge question mark until asics are truly distributed in the wild that could negate their centralisation. In essence a 51% is feasible until enough competition exists.

Yifu himself is selling 10's of thousands, but to whom outside this forum, no one knows!!?

There is a forum thread where someone found out the address where avalon sends all the payments for 10k chips to... its quite a bunch of TH till now...

Well, fortunately the Avalon chips are not particularly efficient or hi-tech, and KNC represents the first of the 2nd gen tech. So when enough 2nd gen stuff comes online it won't be profitable for the 1st gen anymore. Plus it's gonna take a lot longer than people think for those chips to turn into working miners, not to mention just to show up.

I'd be surprised if we saw much impact from them before the first of the year.

In any case, we should all be very glad that we're at all into mining when bitcoin are still able to be mined cheaply and plentifully, before mainstream uptake of bitcoin has happened. Trying to mine four years from now would perhaps be a much riskier endeavor, and we won't be talking about ROI in terms of months. It'll be the more standard years by then, and barrier to entry won't be in the mere thousands but more like tens of thousands like starting any mainstream business.

The days are young yet, and it's a good time to mine. We are neo-49er's, COIN RUSH!

Imagine the poor guy who comes of age 20 years from now, who will look back jealously on this historical epoch and the people able to mine now. When 25 bitcoin will be a fortune. We're like the first employees at microsoft who didn't realize they were soon to all be multi-millionaires. That's how I feel. Bill Gate's secretary was eventually worth $40 million iirc

[nii236]

That's all well and good, as long as we actually hear from KnCminers. Their last update was about two weeks ago, I hope things are going well over there, I want to throw my money at them!

[SebastianJu]

I was under the impression that VAT didn't apply if the product was being shipped out of the EU?  Was that totally wrong?  (I'm in the US)

You're right.
 (corrected post)
Although VAT must be included in EVERY price advertised in EU, it can be deduced if goods are shipped outside EU.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/international/exports/goods.htm
The link is for UK, but I think rules are the same for all EU countries.

But wouldnt they need to add it when they offer it to swedish citizens? In germany such error could lead to high fees from lawyers... these kind of lawyers only would wait for such an error to earn some money.

The big worry is who the unknown players are. Yifu himself said at the recent Bitcoin '13, there could be wealthy vc's developing their own asics for their own use and if they started in Feb, you wouldn't know for a few months before coming online. So their potential impact is a huge question mark until asics are truly distributed in the wild that could negate their centralisation. In essence a 51% is feasible until enough competition exists.

Yifu himself is selling 10's of thousands, but to whom outside this forum, no one knows!!?

There is a forum thread where someone found out the address where avalon sends all the payments for 10k chips to... its quite a bunch of TH till now...

Well, fortunately the Avalon chips are not particularly efficient or hi-tech, and KNC represents the first of the 2nd gen tech. So when enough 2nd gen stuff comes online it won't be profitable for the 1st gen anymore. Plus it's gonna take a lot longer than people think for those chips to turn into working miners, not to mention just to show up.

I'd be surprised if we saw much impact from them before the first of the year.

In any case, we should all be very glad that we're at all into mining when bitcoin are still able to be mined cheaply and plentifully, before mainstream uptake of bitcoin has happened. Trying to mine four years from now would perhaps be a much riskier endeavor, and we won't be talking about ROI in terms of months. It'll be the more standard years by then, and barrier to entry won't be in the mere thousands but more like tens of thousands like starting any mainstream business.

The days are young yet, and it's a good time to mine. We are neo-49er's, COIN RUSH!

Imagine the poor guy who comes of age 20 years from now, who will look back jealously on this historical epoch and the people able to mine now. When 25 bitcoin will be a fortune. We're like the first employees at microsoft who didn't realize they were soon to all be multi-millionaires. That's how I feel. Bill Gate's secretary was eventually worth $40 million iirc

One should considerate too that kncminer arent the only one working on second generation. Bitfountain (Asicminer) is working on it and avalon wont bring out any new miner because they want to focus on next generation ASIC's now... and those 2 companies already know how to solve the problems that appear when building a miner... something that BFL till now wasnt able to overcome... so i see the possibility that kncminer could become problems... On the other hand... when they will have a working miner some day... they will sell for sure.

[jelin1984]

Is someone want I can sell my pre order to knc miners is low number

[Bitcoinorama]

That's all well and good, as long as we actually hear from KnCminers. Their last update was about two weeks ago, I hope things are going well over there, I want to throw my money at them!

Right firstly; you shouldn't be throwing your money anywhere. At the risk of sounding overbearing, there's a lot of money throwing often in stupid directions on this forum. Idiotic comments like that fuels scams. So please base your decisions on well researched evidence and then make your call without projectiling monies.

Secondly; until they request cash, they have no need to update until they are content what they want to show is ready. Half arsed attempts to apease the impatient will get them more abuse than praise. It's funny people screaming lack of updates only after a few days. They showed the prototype of Mars only four days ago and said they are working on optimisation so that poss. +~30% and video evidence. I'd rather, with announcements see them put their best foot forward. We're all aware how crucial timing is in this with ASICs.

Once monies are requested, I believe a regular weekly update, even of just to state routine progress I warranted and is where other companies have let the side down.

[a1phanumrc]

That's all well and good, as long as we actually hear from KnCminers. Their last update was about two weeks ago, I hope things are going well over there, I want to throw my money at them!

I received a message today from KnCMiner regarding my 1-500 pre-order. I haven't heard anything since first placing the order and almost forget about it. Apparently, I didn't create an account but they were kind enough to remind me before opening up official orders.

Hi,

You are being contacted because you have previously expressed an interest in our products at www.kncminer.com. We would like to take this opportunity to tell you as one of the first 500 registered addresses you will soon be able to complete you order for our products.

We have however noticed that you have not created an account at our site. In the next few days we will be opening up the order books for payment and we will be granting you exclusive access to purchase the first 500 of either Jupiter or Saturn.

All you have to do today is create an account at our site. Simply fill out the little form at https://www.kncminer.com/registration.aspx (No money will be taken today)

Once you have created an account we will upgrade it over the next few days to allow you to see more items in our catalogue. This will allow you after you have logged in to see the 1-500 products again. You will then be able to finally guarantee that you receive one of the first miners from KnCMiner.com

There are some simple rules that you will need to follow to make sure everything goes smoothly
 
1.  You must create the account with the email address you have previously used when you registered for the device.

2. You can only order up to the maximum number of devices you have place a pre-order for. Any orders over that amount and they will not be guaranteed to be shipped in the first 500.

3. Once we open for payment you will have 7 days to pay for the miners or you will lose your place in the queue.
 
Right now you have a golden ticket to be among the very first to purchase one of our miners, come and register an account today

Thanks,

KnCMiner team

[Bitcoinorama]

One should considerate too that kncminer arent the only one working on second generation. Bitfountain (Asicminer) is working on it and avalon wont bring out any new miner because they want to focus on next generation ASIC's now... and those 2 companies already know how to solve the problems that appear when building a miner... something that BFL till now wasnt able to overcome... so i see the possibility that kncminer could become problems... On the other hand... when they will have a working miner some day... they will sell for sure.

Also, just to reaffirm with Seb's comments. These are the known elements. What is potentially very scary is any unknown private equity funded ASIC miner development that won't be public knowledge until they start hashing.

Watch Yifu's Bitcoin 2013 videos. Pay attention to the part where he flashes back to the cab journey, holding 10% of the entire network (at the time) in a wafer. Scary shit if these chips aren't distributed at a variety of entry level pricing. Centralisation is very much a real danger this next year! Seriously...

[nii236]

That's all well and good, as long as we actually hear from KnCminers. Their last update was about two weeks ago, I hope things are going well over there, I want to throw my money at them!

I received a message today from KnCMiner regarding my 1-500 pre-order. I haven't heard anything since first placing the order and almost forget about it. Apparently, I didn't create an account but they were kind enough to remind me before opening up official orders.
..snip...

Wow that's very exciting. I just pre-ordered today though so I'm 4500th in the queue! =(

[Xialla]

I have got 17XX and 18XX.) (pre-ordered 25/4)

[ujka]

I was under the impression that VAT didn't apply if the product was being shipped out of the EU?  Was that totally wrong?  (I'm in the US)

You're right.
 (corrected post)
Although VAT must be included in EVERY price advertised in EU, it can be deduced if goods are shipped outside EU.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/managing/international/exports/goods.htm
The link is for UK, but I think rules are the same for all EU countries.

But wouldnt they need to add it when they offer it to swedish citizens? In germany such error could lead to high fees from lawyers... these kind of lawyers only would wait for such an error to earn some money.

Yes, advertised prices have to include taxes of that EU country (Sweden=25%), unless stated otherwise, and that price is for all EU buyers, not just swedish.

[Fishbones]

The last update around Jupiter is the price. We previously stated that it would be between 7000 and 8000 USD per device. The final component costs are all in and we can confirm that the price will be 6995 USD.

The above quote from their last news update from 11 May 2013, as an example. As with all the other price quotes, no mention of "VAT not included".
25% over the price of a Jupiter is not exactly just a little price increase that they forgot to mention.

I would like to believe that what the KNC person meant was that the price does NOT include import tax and shipping costs. VAT is included in listed price for sales within the EU.

[matt4054]

As far as I know, exports are tax-deductible when shipped outside the EU.

I live in Switzerland, which is NOT member of the EU, and whenever I buy from a EU country (Germany, France, Belgium, Netherlands, etc.), the EU VAT, like 20-something%, can be refunded at the customs of the country of origin (if the merchant didn't already de-tax the sale in the first place), and the Swiss VAT (applicable on imports), much lower (8%), is charged by the Swiss customs.

I would believe that the same would happen for exports to the US or any territory outside the EU. But I'm not an expert...

At any rate, it does matter to inquire about the VAT issue because it is a significant part of the price.

[ujka]

kncminer.com webpage is not in line with EU legislation - no Terms and conditions, no registered VAT number, no Terms of payment...
And, as SebastianJu said, EU law is very strict about this.

[zedicus]

kncminer.com webpage is not in line with EU legislation - no Terms and conditions, no registered VAT number, no Terms of payment...
And, as SebastianJu said, EU law is very strict about this.

EU legislation does not apply to something that doesn't exist. Would you like a terms and conditions for the place in line you applied for? "Pre-Pre--Pre-order"


Its like standing in line at a hotdog stand that is not serving hotdogs. It says "hotdogs here" and there are people in line but..

Actually the people in line are not even people, they are mannequins left by people to hold in their place just in case a hotdog shows up!

Surely you cant expect the health inspectors to give them a ticket?

---
Good sir: Youre product is in violation of statute #878767645999221:  imaginary items that are still only in youre mind including hotdogs can not be sold without and end user agreement ??

 

[costapete]

this swiss company will deliver before kncminer   with only 30 to build.   pre funded as well.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/88GH-s-ASIC-Avalon-Clone-Miner-not-butterfly-labs-/261222319271

[dan99]

That's all well and good, as long as we actually hear from KnCminers. Their last update was about two weeks ago, I hope things are going well over there, I want to throw my money at them!

Right firstly; you shouldn't be throwing your money anywhere. At the risk of sounding overbearing, there's a lot of money throwing often in stupid directions on this forum. Idiotic comments like that fuels scams. So please base your decisions on well researched evidence and then make your call without projectiling monies.

Secondly; until they request cash, they have no need to update until they are content what they want to show is ready. Half arsed attempts to apease the impatient will get them more abuse than praise. It's funny people screaming lack of updates only after a few days. They showed the prototype of Mars only four days ago and said they are working on optimisation so that poss. +~30% and video evidence. I'd rather, with announcements see them put their best foot forward. We're all aware how crucial timing is in this with ASICs.

Once monies are requested, I believe a regular weekly update, even of just to state routine progress I warranted and is where other companies have let the side down.

good points .. some of us has been here from page 1 to page 75 or day 1 to day 75 watching, commenting and postings and off course doing our own research, where as others come to read and post only when they saw something promising ..

[Anenome5]

They showed the prototype of Mars only four days ago and said they are working on optimisation so that poss. +~30% and video evidence.

Wait, they did show the Mars prototype? How did I miss that? What page here was that on?

[a1phanumrc]

They showed the prototype of Mars only four days ago and said they are working on optimisation so that poss. +~30% and video evidence.

Wait, they did show the Mars prototype? How did I miss that? What page here was that on?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=214285.0

[arruah]

I have got 17XX and 18XX.) (pre-ordered 25/4)

I made ​​a request to purchase. I came to the order form, how to pay for it I did not understand. In support too, no answer.