|
Meizirkki
|
 |
September 25, 2013, 05:04:27 PM |
|
what econ class did you take? that's not ROI that's simply getting your money, back, breaking even.
Breaking even means 100% ROI, no? Enlighten me. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The forum was founded in 2009 by Satoshi and Sirius. It replaced a
SourceForge forum.
|
|
|
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rizzman
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:04:46 PM |
|
Someone really bought 200 jets in one go? How reliable is this information? It was me. It was I.  What on earth is that? |
|
|
|
|
Xialla
Legendary
 Offline
Activity: 1036
Merit: 1000
/dev/null
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:05:16 PM |
|
Breaking even means 100% ROI, no?
yes. |
|
|
|
|
DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:06:59 PM |
|
what econ class did you take? that's not ROI that's simply getting your money, back, breaking even.
Breaking even means 100% ROI, no? Enlighten me. Only in Bitcoin land. For some reason some clueless people started incorrectly using it that way and it stuck. For the entire rest of the planet ... in every other financial scenario ... no. ROI is return ON investment. breaking even is 0% ROI. Losing money (like buying a 100 BTC rig which only produces 60 BTC before it goes into the trash heap) would be a negative ROI. |
|
|
|
|
|
Meizirkki
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:08:34 PM |
|
what econ class did you take? that's not ROI that's simply getting your money, back, breaking even.
Breaking even means 100% ROI, no? Enlighten me. In Bitcoin land yes for some reason people started using it that way and it stuck. For the entire rest of the planet ... no. ROI is return ON investment. breaking even is 0% ROI. Losing money (like buying a 100 BTC rig which only produces 60 BTC before it goes into the trash heap) would be a negative ROI. wikipedia disagrees with you, sir. |
|
|
|
|
Puppet
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 980
Merit: 1040
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:09:26 PM |
|
What on earth is that?
Horten Ho 229 (dont ask me why its posted there) |
|
|
|
|
Xialla
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1036
Merit: 1000
/dev/null
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:11:21 PM |
|
breaking even is 0% ROI.
.)) joking, right? |
|
|
|
|
ASIC-K
Sr. Member
Offline
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
Hell?
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:12:19 PM |
|
what econ class did you take? that's not ROI that's simply getting your money, back, breaking even.
Breaking even means 100% ROI, no? Enlighten me. In Bitcoin land yes for some reason people started using it that way and it stuck. For the entire rest of the planet ... no. ROI is return ON investment. breaking even is 0% ROI. Losing money (like buying a 100 BTC rig which only produces 60 BTC before it goes into the trash heap) would be a negative ROI. wikipedia disagrees with you, sir. lol, you are using wikipedia. Thats your first problem. |
|
|
|
|
DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:13:03 PM
Last edit: September 25, 2013, 05:24:00 PM by DeathAndTaxes |
|
what econ class did you take? that's not ROI that's simply getting your money, back, breaking even.
Breaking even means 100% ROI, no? Enlighten me. In Bitcoin land yes for some reason people started using it that way and it stuck. For the entire rest of the planet ... no. ROI is return ON investment. breaking even is 0% ROI. Losing money (like buying a 100 BTC rig which only produces 60 BTC before it goes into the trash heap) would be a negative ROI. wikipedia disagrees with you, sir. No it doesn't. I mean if you are going to take the time to "correct" me, at least correct me correctly. From YOUR cite return on investment (%) = (Net profit / Investment) × 100
or
return on investment = gain from investment/ cost of investment[1] GROSS REVENUE =/= PROFIT. If you miner costs 100 BTC and you produce 100 BTC in GROSS REVENUE, then your profit would be 100 BTC - 100 BTC = 0 BTC. ROI% = 0 BTC / 100 BTC ROI% = 0% If your miner costs 100 BTC and you produce 150 BTC in GROSS REVENUE, then your profit would be 150 BTC - 100 BTC = 50 BTC. ROI% = 50 BTC / 100 BTC ROI% = 50%. If your miner costs 100 BTC and you produce 20 BTC in GROSS REVENUE. Then your profit would be -80 BTC. ROI% = -80 BTC / 100 BTC ROI% = -80%. Note to simplify I didn't include electrical costs. Electrical cost should also be subtracted from gross revenue. It is the same concept in stocks. If you bought shares of xyz mining corp for 1 BTC and you received 0.1 BTC in dividends and then later sold the shares at a loss for 0.8 BTC, your gain would be -0.1 BTC (0.8 sale price +0.1 dividend -1.0 purchase price). A loss is a negative gain. Your investment was 1 BTC and your gain -0.1 BTC. Your ROI% = -0.1 / 1.0 = -10%. You have a negative 10% return on your capital ("you lost 10%"). |
|
|
|
|
btc_uzr
Sr. Member
Offline
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
let's have some fun
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:16:15 PM |
|
|
..and Thou shalt spread the coin in the name of cryptography for eternity
|
|
|
DeathAndTaxes
Donator
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:16:28 PM |
|
breaking even is 0% ROI.
.)) joking, right? No. It is a very basic financial concept. Breaking even is no PROFIT. REVENUE =/= PROFIT. ROI% measures PROFIT. |
|
|
|
|
xyzzy099
Legendary
 Online
Activity: 1062
Merit: 1041
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:17:40 PM |
|
what econ class did you take? that's not ROI that's simply getting your money, back, breaking even.
Breaking even means 100% ROI, no? Enlighten me. In Bitcoin land yes for some reason people started using it that way and it stuck. For the entire rest of the planet ... no. ROI is return ON investment. breaking even is 0% ROI. Losing money (like buying a 100 BTC rig which only produces 60 BTC before it goes into the trash heap) would be a negative ROI. wikipedia disagrees with you, sir. No it doesn't. If net profit is negative, ROI is negative. return on investment (%) = (Net profit / Investment) × 100 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_Investment |
Libertarians: Diligently plotting to take over the world and leave you alone.
|
|
|
Puppet
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 980
Merit: 1040
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:20:05 PM |
|
No. It is a very basic financial concept. Breaking even is no PROFIT. REVENUE =/= PROFIT. ROI% measures PROFIT.
ah shoo, why did you have to tell them? Now they will stop perordering all those "ROI" generating miners that will secure our network.  Well, that is if they understand " =/= "  |
|
|
|
|
|
creativex
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:20:57 PM |
|
breaking even is 0% ROI.
.)) joking, right? No. It is a very basic financial concept. Breaking even is no PROFIT. REVENUE =/= PROFIT. ROI% measures PROFIT. It's terrifying how few seem to grasp this simple notion. |
|
|
|
|
timmmers
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:22:22 PM |
|
Anyone looking at the mining dashboard estimates before buying ANY rigs now...that's got to be a cooler. You struggle to find anything that will reach break even on there now, except the Jupiter delivered in Sept/ Oct and the price is the november discount one not the price anyone actually likely to get one in those months paid.
Even if it's not accurate it's bound to make people think twice unlike 2 or 3 months back when it looked a lot rosier if not exactly bright.
I think it's possible that miners will become much harder to sell, and even moreso on pre-order given the near future losses they are likely to make. Some serious price cuts would be required to improve that.
Even at 5k, would you buy a Jupiter today knowing it would arrive in mid November and never break even? That's looking likely now. So who is going to be buying them?
|
|
|
|
|
Meizirkki
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:22:50 PM |
|
I stand corrected. Thank you. I guess this was a leftover from my earlier confusion, ROI meaning realisation of investment. (In which case my claim would be accurate - hopefully ) |
|
|
|
|
|
rolling
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:24:14 PM |
|
I think the problem is in understanding English. ROI is not return "OF" your investment, it is return "ON" your investment! Huge difference.
|
|
|
|
|
|
creativex
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:31:41 PM |
|
Anyone looking at the mining dashboard estimates before buying ANY rigs now...that's got to be a cooler. You struggle to find anything that will reach break even on there now, except the Jupiter delivered in Sept/ Oct and the price is the november discount one not the price anyone actually likely to get one in those months paid.
Even if it's not accurate it's bound to make people think twice unlike 2 or 3 months back when it looked a lot rosier if not exactly bright.
I think it's possible that miners will become much harder to sell, and even moreso on pre-order given the near future losses they are likely to make. Some serious price cuts would be required to improve that.
Even at 5k, would you buy a Jupiter today knowing it would arrive in mid November and never break even? That's looking likely now. So who is going to be buying them? Nope. Vendor pre-order queues are already filled with pre-orders though. Hashfast just came off their sale in which you could get 1.2Th for $6k + shipping...allegedly for November shipping(more likely December). That's $5/Gh with knc at $12.5/Gh. Prices are falling so fast I don't see why people are still lining up to order gear...but they are. |
|
|
|
btc_uzr
Sr. Member
Offline
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
let's have some fun
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:34:29 PM |
|
hm, I'm wondering whether selling the miners under this term to private persons without VAT-ID prevents them from sticking to eu customer laws ? 'The Products are sold for business use only and Purchaser hereby accepts that it has purchased the Products in order to conduct a business.' I cannot imagine that. Remember Rpi trouble with EU consumer protection laws ? Another reason is otherwise everything would be sold as 'business use only' in the EU in order to get rid of those consumer protection, no ? So one might enforce a refund anytime. see chapter 5, http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_info/10principles/en.pdfAs well as sending back the miner after 7days of mining. http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroad/returning-unwanted-goods/index_en.htm |
..and Thou shalt spread the coin in the name of cryptography for eternity
|
|
|
Rampion
Legendary
Offline
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1018
|
|
September 25, 2013, 05:37:13 PM |
|
I think the problem is in understanding English. ROI is not return "OF" your investment, it is return "ON" your investment! Huge difference.
EXACTLY. ROI is return ON your investment, and thus means the gains you get from an investment. If you invest 10BTC on a miner and you get 10BTC back, you got NO ROI, you just reached the break-even point. ROI is everything that comes AFTER that point (or, if you lost money, it's the amount of money you lost in relation to your investment - that's NEGATIVE ROI, which is also possible). That's what ROI means in ALL the word, but in this forum somebody started to use it as a synonym of break-even, and everybody followed... Which is fun and ludicrous at the same time. When you are doing a profit&loss for your company, or for a specific operation, in your excel you will have two very clear and different things: BEP (break even point) and ROI (which is usually expressed as a percentage). So, when people here writes "you won't even reach ROI", in reality they mean "you won't even reach break even". If you got a positive ROI, you got profit. If you got a negative ROI, you lost money. If you didn't get any ROI, you have recouped all your investment and thus reached break-even. EDIT: as Death&Taxes just wrote, this is a very basic financial concept... But I guess 99% of BTC miners don't know sh*t about finances, and that's why they rush to preorder miners from which they will get a negative ROI |
|
|
|
|
