Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[cspeter8]

You guys think there would be any interest in metal "paper wallets?" like take the info and encrypt it so I can't see it, then etch or engrave into metal (something they won't corrode.)

Wouldn't have to worry about paper degradation or such then.

like this in stainless steel?  http://bitcoinfiresafe.com/products/4-classic-safe-1783

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[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[arklan]

You guys think there would be any interest in metal "paper wallets?" like take the info and encrypt it so I can't see it, then etch or engrave into metal (something they won't corrode.)

Wouldn't have to worry about paper degradation or such then.

like this in stainless steel?  http://bitcoinfiresafe.com/products/4-classic-safe-1783

... Yes, yes just like that.

[magicmexican]

some BullFud -

http://www.reddit.com/r/MtGox/comments/1yk3kz/mtgox_could_be_close_to_the_technical_solution/?sort=confidence

[ErisDiscordia]

I think Jorge's point that logical systems are brittle is well-taken.  They are also robust, within their domain.  Some are provably correct.  Others have extensive stress testing which gives us high confidence in them.  Many are not provably correct.  Many have little stress testing.  Often even very well designed systems have usability flaws which increase the likelihood of operator error resulting in risk or outright harm.

All of which is completely off-topic, but then this is the de facto off-topic thread, and I resemble that remark.

In any case, the primary point I take from that discussion is that one should try to cover for other's errors, in order to be an effective cooperator.  

Well, I kinda feel bad now for being so harsh with Jorge - he really seems a nice guy, and for sure its much better to have him in here than the other thousands trolls that are flooding this forum since October.

What is kinda annoying of him IMO is that he clearly has a lack of understanding of fundamental things linked to Bitcoin, and instead of silently reading and learning what was discussed in the past and try to complement that, he just spits the same old arguments that have been discussed (and debunked) thousands of times before.

Practical example: the "ponzi scheme" thing. We already had an intellectual/economist on the forum who explained us many times and with Jorge's very same words how Bitcoin was a ponzi on the verge of collapse: his moment of glory was during the crash of 2011, and he went to great lengths to explain how Bitcoin was a zero-sum game in which early adopters were assraping late adopters. He cheered with joy during the crash from $32 to $2, but we all know how that played out: the "bag-holders" as he called them (did you think you invented that word, Jorge?) are now holding a bag worth hundreds of times more it was worth during this infamous character's rants. The name of this guy is John Nagle, and you can find his profile here and here a nice web with which he embarassed himself.

And BTW, Mr. Stelfi: please point to us an example of a ponzi scheme which has seen 3 different "boom and bust" cycles in which price deflated as much as it did with Bitcoin, to then recover in such a way as Bitcoin did. Just FYI:

2011: $32 to $2 (-94%)
mid-2013: $266 to $50 (-81%)
late 2013: $1242 to $400ish (-68%)

Maybe because BTC is not a "zero-sum game", or a "ponzi" or a "bubble", despite that's what its critics have said of it from its very inception. Maybe there's much more to it than its mere utility as money, maybe (and only maybe) the distributed blockchain is the promise of a revolution that brings an increased freedom for the people.

I'm afraid that to see that you probably have to look deeper into it.

Jorge, do yourself (and the community) a favor and listen to this guy. He's one of the most knowledgeable and well-spoken individuals on this forum and when he tells you that you need to study the topic more deeply then that is what you probably should do.

When I see your posts I am constantly lamenting the fact that someone with your obvious level of intelligence and attention to detail doesn't use his abilities to come up with new worthwhile ideas (as I'm sure you could) from which the community could benefit, but instead spends his time and energy rehashing arguments of days long past and observing sleep patterns of Chinese people...

Challenge yourself to change your mind every once in a while! I hear it's good for your sanity. I'm not saying you need to become a bulltard cheerleader so you fit in better in the circle jerk. Just open your mind a little bit more, don't worry it won't fall out. Also I know that you are strictly not a holder of bitcoin (presumably so it doesn't affect your "objectivity" in judging it) but as has been said many times before - the experience of owning some btc and using it yourself is beyond description and without this particular experience you can't ever hope to approach anything resembling an "objective opinion" on the technology.

[spooderman]

I think Jorge's point that logical systems are brittle is well-taken.  They are also robust, within their domain.  Some are provably correct.  Others have extensive stress testing which gives us high confidence in them.  Many are not provably correct.  Many have little stress testing.  Often even very well designed systems have usability flaws which increase the likelihood of operator error resulting in risk or outright harm.

All of which is completely off-topic, but then this is the de facto off-topic thread, and I resemble that remark.

In any case, the primary point I take from that discussion is that one should try to cover for other's errors, in order to be an effective cooperator.  

Well, I kinda feel bad now for being so harsh with Jorge - he really seems a nice guy, and for sure its much better to have him in here than the other thousands trolls that are flooding this forum since October.

What is kinda annoying of him IMO is that he clearly has a lack of understanding of fundamental things linked to Bitcoin, and instead of silently reading and learning what was discussed in the past and try to complement that, he just spits the same old arguments that have been discussed (and debunked) thousands of times before.

Practical example: the "ponzi scheme" thing. We already had an intellectual/economist on the forum who explained us many times and with Jorge's very same words how Bitcoin was a ponzi on the verge of collapse: his moment of glory was during the crash of 2011, and he went to great lengths to explain how Bitcoin was a zero-sum game in which early adopters were assraping late adopters. He cheered with joy during the crash from $32 to $2, but we all know how that played out: the "bag-holders" as he called them (did you think you invented that word, Jorge?) are now holding a bag worth hundreds of times more it was worth during this infamous character's rants. The name of this guy is John Nagle, and you can find his profile here and here a nice web with which he embarassed himself.

And BTW, Mr. Stelfi: please point to us an example of a ponzi scheme which has seen 3 different "boom and bust" cycles in which price deflated as much as it did with Bitcoin, to then recover in such a way as Bitcoin did. Just FYI:

2011: $32 to $2 (-94%)
mid-2013: $266 to $50 (-81%)
late 2013: $1242 to $400ish (-68%)

Maybe because BTC is not a "zero-sum game", or a "ponzi" or a "bubble", despite that's what its critics have said of it from its very inception. Maybe there's much more to it than its mere utility as money, maybe (and only maybe) the distributed blockchain is the promise of a revolution that brings an increased freedom for the people.

I'm afraid that to see that you probably have to look deeper into it.

Jorge, do yourself (and the community) a favor and listen to this guy. He's one of the most knowledgeable and well-spoken individuals on this forum and when he tells you that you need to study the topic more deeply then that is what you probably should do.

When I see your posts I am constantly lamenting the fact that someone with your obvious level of intelligence and attention to detail doesn't use his abilities to come up with new worthwhile ideas (as I'm sure you could) from which the community could benefit, but instead spends his time and energy rehashing arguments of days long past and observing sleep patterns of Chinese people...

Challenge yourself to change your mind every once in a while! I hear it's good for your sanity. I'm not saying you need to become a bulltard cheerleader so you fit in better in the circle jerk. Just open your mind a little bit more, don't worry it won't fall out. Also I know that you are strictly not a holder of bitcoin (presumably so it doesn't affect your "objectivity" in judging it) but as has been said many times before - the experience of owning some btc and using it yourself is beyond description and without this particular experience you can't ever hope to approach anything resembling an "objective opinion" on the technology.

I am a bulltard cheerleader. I can't contribute any code as I don't know how, other than that, bulltard cheerleading doesn't seem so absurd. I don't have any doubt about btc being the future, the price is a poor indicator of its potential.

[chriswilmer]

I think Jorge's point that logical systems are brittle is well-taken.  They are also robust, within their domain.  Some are provably correct.  Others have extensive stress testing which gives us high confidence in them.  Many are not provably correct.  Many have little stress testing.  Often even very well designed systems have usability flaws which increase the likelihood of operator error resulting in risk or outright harm.

All of which is completely off-topic, but then this is the de facto off-topic thread, and I resemble that remark.

In any case, the primary point I take from that discussion is that one should try to cover for other's errors, in order to be an effective cooperator.  

Well, I kinda feel bad now for being so harsh with Jorge - he really seems a nice guy, and for sure its much better to have him in here than the other thousands trolls that are flooding this forum since October.

What is kinda annoying of him IMO is that he clearly has a lack of understanding of fundamental things linked to Bitcoin, and instead of silently reading and learning what was discussed in the past and try to complement that, he just spits the same old arguments that have been discussed (and debunked) thousands of times before.

Practical example: the "ponzi scheme" thing. We already had an intellectual/economist on the forum who explained us many times and with Jorge's very same words how Bitcoin was a ponzi on the verge of collapse: his moment of glory was during the crash of 2011, and he went to great lengths to explain how Bitcoin was a zero-sum game in which early adopters were assraping late adopters. He cheered with joy during the crash from $32 to $2, but we all know how that played out: the "bag-holders" as he called them (did you think you invented that word, Jorge?) are now holding a bag worth hundreds of times more it was worth during this infamous character's rants. The name of this guy is John Nagle, and you can find his profile here and here a nice web with which he embarassed himself.

And BTW, Mr. Stelfi: please point to us an example of a ponzi scheme which has seen 3 different "boom and bust" cycles in which price deflated as much as it did with Bitcoin, to then recover in such a way as Bitcoin did. Just FYI:

2011: $32 to $2 (-94%)
mid-2013: $266 to $50 (-81%)
late 2013: $1242 to $400ish (-68%)

Maybe because BTC is not a "zero-sum game", or a "ponzi" or a "bubble", despite that's what its critics have said of it from its very inception. Maybe there's much more to it than its mere utility as money, maybe (and only maybe) the distributed blockchain is the promise of a revolution that brings an increased freedom for the people.

I'm afraid that to see that you probably have to look deeper into it.

+1000000000000000

[threecats]

 



[/quote]
 the experience of owning some btc and using it yourself is beyond description and without this particular experience you can't ever hope to approach anything resembling an "objective opinion" on the technology.
[/quote]

+1

[empowering]

[ErisDiscordia]

I am a bulltard cheerleader. I can't contribute any code as I don't know how, other than that, bulltard cheerleading doesn't seem so absurd. I don't have any doubt about btc being the future, the price is a poor indicator of its potential.

Btw I didn't want to deride bulltard cheerleaders. That's pretty much me, as well. No coding knowledge, just a fascination with the technology and its implications. I just think we have enough of these people around, anyone able and willing to contribute something more is appreciated imo

[600watt]

 the experience of owning some btc and using it yourself is beyond description and without this particular experience you can't ever hope to approach anything resembling an "objective opinion" on the technology.

+1



that is correct. once you have used the bitcoin protocol, experience the smoothness, the speed, the power to move wealth with you fingertips, its elegance and that is it is bringing financial sovereignty to yourself, it becomes more obvious to you, that the traditional way to bank people is utterly non-modern, as outdated as public stagecoaches in times of internet/email.

the internet revolutionized the way we communicate. bitcoin will monetarize the internet and revolutionize the way we move money.

[JimboToronto]

some BullFud -

http://www.reddit.com/r/MtGox/comments/1yk3kz/mtgox_could_be_close_to_the_technical_solution/?sort=confidence

FUD? I don't see fear, uncertainty or doubt in that.

FUD is by its very nature bearish propaganda.

Bullish propaganda is based on enthusiasm and confidence.

Perhaps in Mexico FUD is similar to Spam:



 

[empowering]

[ChartBuddy]

Explanation

[elasticband]

my answer to a friend who is questioning me regarding bitcoins current low price of close to $100.


btcponzi: What price is bitcoin at now, $100?

elasticband: About 425euro

btcponzi: Has Mt Gox started trading again?

elasticband What you mean empty gox? Nope, probably insolvent, a long term stain on money exchanging.

btcponzi: Has Mt Gox started trading again?

elasticband: What you mean empty gox? Nope, probably insolvent, a long term stain on money exchanging.


elasticband truth be told, empty gox have never halted trading in this whole debacle they have got themselves into, which i presume you have read about. The problem is they have halted all bitcoin withdraws due to certain wrong implementations and use of the bitcoin protocol. fiat withdraws have had problems forever, probably due to seizes and investigations with ongoing court cases. There are many other exchanges which have thrived without the problems empty gox continuously brings upon themselves, but always with bad news comes a certain level of uncertainty which effects more than just empty gox customers. sorry rant over.

btcponzi: I've kinda kept an ear open but last I heard they had halted trades & called bitcoin vulnerable to attack & unconfirmed trades


elasticband: they maybe halted trading for a few hours while trying to implement fixes and work around that they should have had in place a long time, but generally trading has been very much so live, just you can't actually withdraw anything, hence the possibilities of insolvency. There statement regarding the matter is typical of empty gox, where they try and shift blame and shroud things with mystery. There are and have been some certain technical issues with the bitcoin protocol that have been known and documented since 2011, this generally does not effect the generally user or holder or whatever. Most exchanges run custom code which runs on top of the bitcoin protocol, in some cases they run w whole custom wallet coded by themselves, empty gox appear to have been lazy with their implementation and have possibly been exploited, sad but true.

[zyk]

 the experience of owning some btc and using it yourself is beyond description and without this particular experience you can't ever hope to approach anything resembling an "objective opinion" on the technology.

+1



that is correct. once you have used the bitcoin protocol, experience the smoothness, the speed, the power to move wealth with you fingertips, its elegance and that is it is bringing financial sovereignty to yourself, it becomes more obvious to you, that the traditional way to bank people is utterly non-modern, as outdated as public stagecoaches in times of internet/email.

the internet revolutionized the way we communicate. bitcoin will monetarize the internet and revolutionize the way we move money.

Bitcoin is overhyped, overvalued, overcentralized...see Gox, Asic and the bitcoinfoundation full of corrupted fucktards who want to sell out to Goldman Sucks...

Any other crypto is better...especially Litecoin is faster and more promising....get off the dying horse...

[humanitee]

Bitcoin is overhyped, overvalued, overcentralized...see Gox, Asic and the bitcoinfoundation full of corrupted fucktards who want to sell out to Goldman Sucks...

Any other crypto is better...especially Litecoin is faster and more promising....get off the dying horse...

Bitcoin is the entryway, after you are in the frictionless environment you can do anything you please. There are so many services around Bitcoin I expect most people will hold alts and then trade them for bitcoin when they want to spend them.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you!

[knarzo]

Yada yada yada

Team up with fonzie!

[TheKoziTwo]

 the experience of owning some btc and using it yourself is beyond description and without this particular experience you can't ever hope to approach anything resembling an "objective opinion" on the technology.

+1



that is correct. once you have used the bitcoin protocol, experience the smoothness, the speed, the power to move wealth with you fingertips, its elegance and that is it is bringing financial sovereignty to yourself, it becomes more obvious to you, that the traditional way to bank people is utterly non-modern, as outdated as public stagecoaches in times of internet/email.

the internet revolutionized the way we communicate. bitcoin will monetarize the internet and revolutionize the way we move money.

Bitcoin is overhyped, overvalued, overcentralized...see Gox, Asic and the bitcoinfoundation full of corrupted fucktards who want to sell out to Goldman Sucks...

Any other crypto is better...especially Litecoin is faster and more promising....get off the dying horse...

[knarzo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd4fj9Efl4s