Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[JayJuanGee]

....

Fees are not the problem, nor a barrier to entry.

https://bitcoinfees.21.co/
..

All you have to do is look at your nearest bureaux de change to understand that fees are 100% the issue.

Nearly all bureauxs de change will advertize zero fees. Even many remittances providers claim zero fees on international transactions. Why? Because the masses are easily fooled. They see zero fees for these services, credit cards, banking, paypal, etc and they assume it's a free lunch. So they fill their boots on these services.

Having deployed a currency product aimed at consumers, I can, with 100% certainty, tell you this is the case.

General consumers have no clue that all the profit margins are made on the currency conversion; and if they try to check it, the rates are too confusing to work out, so they just look a the big sign that says zero fees and off they go.  The average remittance value is $200/month, and its sent by people, on average, with little or no education.

Fees are a deal breaker for mass adoption. Which, to stay on topic, is a deal breaker for Bitcoin demand and therefore its price; especially in one of its biggest markets: $600bn/year remittances.

In the end of the day, what matters is how much you sent and how much the other party got (or how much you got, when the other sent them).

When the other party tells you that "hey you have sent 1000$, but I only got 950$ so you need to send another 50$", at that point you learn about the hidden fees.

Or when you sell something through paypal for 100$ and you end up getting 97$, it's pretty visible too.

With bitcoin fees of $0.00x to $0.1x , at least we don't have such worries.

If paypal isn't a deal breaker with its 35 cents + % on each payment, and bank wires and western unions aren't deal breakers with all their charges, then why do we even bother with the near-zero fees of bitcoin?

The actual fees attached to bitcoin are all connected to the legacy and centralized systems (fiat conversions, exchanges, etc).

When you go to spend bitcoins you see the dollar amount of $X and then a QR code that says send Y bitcoins to this address. Do you think people actually go to the exchange to check the price then open a calculator to figure out if the bitcoin value they are sending is the latest value? As someone who spends bitcoins all the time, I assure you they do not. If there's a .00001 BTC fee added to the .28421482 price I'm paying it's not deterring me from spending.

I believe that you are correct about a kind of laziness that is likely to exist with figuring out fees, and surely people prefer whatever wallets or systems to figure out the fee and to be reasonable.  However, if the system is caught to be unreasonable with its fees then they may look into it more.

About a year ago, I had done a bit of an experiment with the fees in blockchain.info wallet, and I varied the fees between about $.08 and $.001.  At around $.04 and above there was no difference in send times.

Recently, on a couple of occasions, I had noticed that the standard fees calculated through a couple of mycelium wallets added up to about $.45, and the first occasion I did not realize it until afterwards, and the second occasion I tried to talk the guy into fixing the fee, but since he was sending me about $2,000 in value, I concluded that it really did not matter to me, whether the fee was $.45 or $.08, I just wanted to expedite the situation and make sure that the transaction was completed.

[JayJuanGee]

....

Fees are not the problem, nor a barrier to entry.

https://bitcoinfees.21.co/
..

All you have to do is look at your nearest bureaux de change to understand that fees are 100% the issue.

Nearly all bureauxs de change will advertize zero fees. Even many remittances providers claim zero fees on international transactions. Why? Because the masses are easily fooled. They see zero fees for these services, credit cards, banking, paypal, etc and they assume it's a free lunch. So they fill their boots on these services.

Having deployed a currency product aimed at consumers, I can, with 100% certainty, tell you this is the case.

General consumers have no clue that all the profit margins are made on the currency conversion; and if they try to check it, the rates are too confusing to work out, so they just look a the big sign that says zero fees and off they go.  The average remittance value is $200/month, and its sent by people, on average, with little or no education.

Fees are a deal breaker for mass adoption. Which, to stay on topic, is a deal breaker for Bitcoin demand and therefore its price; especially in one of its biggest markets: $600bn/year remittances.

You don't have any clue what're you talking about!

After spending $100k on focus groups to identify appropriate fee structures for remittances, I can assure you adverts like this highlighting zero fees are no mistake:

[https://i.imgur.com/Fy22PHP.png[/img]

[https://i.imgur.com/repPwhz.png[/img]

[https://i.imgur.com/XkEo5Ud.jpg[/img]

So, I can assure you of this: you have no clue about consumers perception of fees.

I believe that the assertion that you do not know what you are talking about comes about from your various bold assertions regarding problems with bitcoin, rather than actual facts that you are divulging and discussing concerning industry remittance practices.

You may bring up some decent facts regarding those industry remittance practices, but your connections and conclusions about bitcoin remain lame at best.


By the way, you are correct when you suggest that hidden fees are likely to make a bigger difference when the system is used more frequently by someone, and sometimes the advertisement may be aimed at getting someone in the door, but it may not keep them in the door if they come to realize that they are being charged much higher than the advertised fees.  Wether they stay in the door or not may well depend on their assessment of their available alternatives, whether that be bitcoin or some other perceived lower cost service.

[JimboToronto]

Good AM BTCland. Slept in a little today. Normally I'm up by the crack of noon.

Still no change... $612 on Bitcoinaverage.

Not a lot to talk about in this thread (except the ongoing block size debate, in which I refuse to become involved) until we see some real movement.
___________

In the meantime Adam is conspicuous by his absence. He seems to be around the other forum (the one with Chartbuddy) so I gather he's avoiding/boycotting this one.

Anyone know why, except for his obvious disagreement in the aforementioned block size issue? He came back quickly after his mini-ban a few months ago. Any reason why it's different this time?

[Meuh6879]

...

The actual fees attached to bitcoin are all connected to the legacy and centralized systems (fiat conversions, exchanges, etc).

If you do enough transactions, fees become an issue:

https://youtu.be/1-z-zTBHOO8?t=14m14s

and this is called a SPAM protection.

[jertsy]

Good AM BTCland. Slept in a little today. Normally I'm up by the crack of noon.

Still no change... $612 on Bitcoinaverage.

Not a lot to talk about in this thread (except the ongoing block size debate, in which I refuse to become involved) until we see some real movement.
___________

In the meantime Adam is conspicuous by his absence. He seems to be around the other forum (the one with Chartbuddy) so I gather he's avoiding/boycotting this one.

Anyone know why, except for his obvious disagreement in the aforementioned block size issue? He came back quickly after his mini-ban a few months ago. Any reason why it's different this time?

The price has been going sideways for two months and there's absolutely nothing happening. He's probably too bored to post here. He'll start posting here if there is a major event like an exchange hack, or Bitcoin doubling in price.

[coins101]

...

The actual fees attached to bitcoin are all connected to the legacy and centralized systems (fiat conversions, exchanges, etc).

If you do enough transactions, fees become an issue:

https://youtu.be/1-z-zTBHOO8?t=14m14s

and this is called a SPAM protection.

No issue with using small fees to prevent spam attacks.

But $10, $10, $50?

That's international bank wire fees.

So, high fees = why bother going through the hassle of changing up fiat to Bitcoin, then being charged as much as a bank wire; before the other end have to convert Bitcoin to fiat.

Does spam protection mean: Lets put up a barrier to users, that way we can keep small blocks? That's just bollocks.

The fee the market would settle on should be minimal.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1391350.0

[JimboToronto]

He's probably too bored to post here. He'll start posting here if there is a major event like an exchange hack, or Bitcoin doubling in price.

A flat market never stopped him in the past. In fact, his off-the-wall posts were often the only thing worth reading here during the doldrums.

I also wish he'd change the poll. 

[JayJuanGee]

Good AM BTCland. Slept in a little today. Normally I'm up by the crack of noon.

Still no change... $612 on Bitcoinaverage.

Not a lot to talk about in this thread (except the ongoing block size debate, in which I refuse to become involved) until we see some real movement.
___________

In the meantime Adam is conspicuous by his absence. He seems to be around the other forum (the one with Chartbuddy) so I gather he's avoiding/boycotting this one.

Anyone know why, except for his obvious disagreement in the aforementioned block size issue? He came back quickly after his mini-ban a few months ago. Any reason why it's different this time?

I have had a bit of a discussion with him, and in essence, his account was hacked several weeks ago, and he has not yet gotten it back. 

I was trying to convince him to go through the motions of getting his account back....

He should understand that a lot of folks like seeing his posts in this thread, even when they are sometimes quite off the wall or even controversial...      (maybe I should not be calling the kettle black?)

[JayJuanGee]

...

The actual fees attached to bitcoin are all connected to the legacy and centralized systems (fiat conversions, exchanges, etc).

If you do enough transactions, fees become an issue:

https://youtu.be/1-z-zTBHOO8?t=14m14s

and this is called a SPAM protection.

No issue with using small fees to prevent spam attacks.

But $10, $10, $50?

That's international bank wire fees.

So, high fees = why bother going through the hassle of changing up fiat to Bitcoin, then being charged as much as a bank wire; before the other end have to convert Bitcoin to fiat.

Does spam protection mean: Lets put up a barrier to users, that way we can keep small blocks? That's just bollocks.

The fee the market would settle on should be minimal.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1391350.0

You are smarter than that, no?

You are coming off as a stupid-ass troll with your various strawman exaggerations.

You should realize that Bitcoin transaction fees are no way near any bank wire fee price territories, and there is no real threat that bitcoin fees are reaching those kinds of levels at any time in the near future.

Yeah, sure there is some ambiguity regarding fees, and there is some uncertainties regarding how much they are going to be in the future, but the reality of the matter remains that a person can send $$$ thousands for fees of less than a dollar and have those transactions as "high priority"  You can also send transactions with hardly any fees at all, and still have those transactions go through within less than 24 hours. 

There is no competing system that allows for secure decentralized immutable value transaction/storage.  Name one?  Accordingly, we are getting a considerable value out of bitcoin at the moment and in the foreseeable future, because also maybe in the end, it is worth more than the going fee rate of bank wires etc to be able to have a system (namely bitcoin) with such secure decentralized value transaction/storage?

[Elwar]

Bitcoin can easily do the same as this ad.

Send bitcoins for Free!*







* Small transaction fee may apply

[JimboToronto]

I have had a bit of a discussion with him, and in essence, his account was hacked several weeks ago, and he has not yet gotten it back. 

I was trying to convince him to go through the motions of getting his account back....

Thanks for the info.

He should understand that a lot of folks like seeing his posts in this thread, even especially when they are sometimes quite off the wall.

ftfy 

[AlexGR]

...

The actual fees attached to bitcoin are all connected to the legacy and centralized systems (fiat conversions, exchanges, etc).

If you do enough transactions, fees become an issue:

https://youtu.be/1-z-zTBHOO8?t=14m14s

23$ and 50$ fees per tx? What is he talking about?

Come on, let's get serious.

Last block was

https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000028070c4eff21147cc6efbd656498cc0ecd12c892f32bac

Number Of Transactions   2665
Output Total   9,069.87804225 BTC
Estimated Transaction Volume   1,363.92519973 BTC
Transaction Fees   0.62605074 BTC

381$ were paid for 2665 txs, for an estimated transaction value of 832k USD.

[mymenace]

Not much movement on walls as everyone knows, approx. buy/sell walls on bitstamp - buy side stacked to 300, sell side stacked to 850

fundamentals clearly point to market collapse and everyone in position for the fall

bitcoin following gold price now for over 18 months,

recent article explains whats happening and what to buy

https://www.rt.com/business/361575-central-banks-vegas-casino/

buy side a little thinner, sell side alot thinner, green shaded band has met yellow line

check em https://bitcoinity.org/markets

previously

bitstamp



what happens when the green shaded peaks meet back down to the yellow line, seems to be occurring again

[Torque]

[JayJuanGee]

There's nothing really new here, because we frequently get stuck at a certain price point for what seems like an extended period of time, but then the resolution is not clearly one direction or another.  Accordingly, even though there does seem to be a decent amount of upwards price pressures, I do not expect this matter to resolve for sure to the upside.

Our range for a couple of months now seems to be between $560 and $630, so currently, we are not exactly in the middle of the range, and we are floating kind of in the upper part of the most recent price range.

[Paashaas]

The Chinese are not so interested in Bitcoin these days, they are so busy moving there Yuan's into real-estate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CPCtlxOgUY

[savetherainforest]

The Chinese are not so interested in Bitcoin these days, they are so busy moving there Yuan's into real-estate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CPCtlxOgUY

Those guards at the door... They are doing a bad HODLING job...  

[Hunyadi]

Is it time to leave this range, hopefully 

[savetherainforest]

Well... the feeling is like this... 






Well played lambs! 

[DaRude]

So there are only BTC1.8k new BTC mined daily. Volume wise we got about:
BTC4k @ Bitfinex USD/BTC
BTC4k @ Btc-e USD/BTC
BTC3k @ Stamp USD/BTC
BTC3k @ Coinbase USD/BTC
BTC3k @ Kraken EUR/BTC
BTC1.8k daily Gemini auction
BTC1k @ LocalBTC USD/BTC

or about BTC20k/day volume from somewhat believable sources

+BTC21MM CNY/BTC

and that's with a stable price in last 3months. Where is the volume coming from?  can't be same people selling to themselves just to pay exchange fees