Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[vlight]

"City banks plan to hoard bitcoins to help them pay cyber ransoms"
Experts say blue chip companies have decided it’s cheaper to deal with extortionists than risk damaging attacks


https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/22/city-banks-plan-to-hoard-bitcoins-to-help-them-pay-cyber-ransoms

Intrinsic value!

Or this is just an excuse to buy more Bitcoins while price is still low. 

[kurious]

Page 16000...?

I guess congrats are in order - if this post manages to stay here 

[Dafar]

Where is Adam??

[JimboToronto]

Good morning Bitcoinland.

Still holding in the $650s... $655 to be exact (Bitcoinaverage).

Page 16000...?

I guess congrats are in order - if this post manages to stay here  

I don't think it's a big thing any more.

Remember page 10000? People were jockeying for days, posting and deleting to try to get on the landmark page.

How long has page 16000 been up? Over 16 hours and still going? Ho hum.

[JimboToronto]

Where is Adam??

JJG says he talked to him a while back and Adam said he was hacked and locked out. Hasn't bothered to reclaim his account.

I wish he'd do something about it. I miss his absurd humor and drunken shenanigans.

Also, the poll desperately needs changing.

[bitebits]

[...] If you operate a backed currency you're far more efficient using a secure SQL server as the banks will soon find out to their cost once the "we're blockchain friendly" bandwagon gimmickery has worn off.

The whole point of a blockchain is that it's designed to support peer-to-peer, unbacked tokens. [...]

Andreas summarizes it quite well in his recent talk in San Francisco: "The first instinct is to fix them".

[toknormal]

I see a possibility but I'm afraid I can't guarantee anything  Wink

Factors that would make the outcome more favourable include:

 • Major Segwit/Lightning news followed by some big mainstream monetary adopter
 • Wintlygross ETF lift-off
 • Worldwide economic collapse and implosion of the debt bubble
 • Further massive Chinese devaluation of offshore Yuan followed by a FED response of renewed QE to offset a stock-market slump on growth fears
 • The penny finally dropping with major gold bugs like SD Metals and Mike Baloney that Gold has a problem with travelling through wires and has therefore lost its tenet monetary property

Take your pick !

[Karartma1]

[...] If you operate a backed currency you're far more efficient using a secure SQL server as the banks will soon find out to their cost once the "we're blockchain friendly" bandwagon gimmickery has worn off.

The whole point of a blockchain is that it's designed to support peer-to-peer, unbacked tokens. [...]

Andreas summarizes it quite well in his recent talk in San Francisco: "The first instinct is to fix them".

Excellent! I was looking for it but I was always forgetting about it. Yes, that's our Andreas.


About R3CEV...
It seems that after a lot of efforts they are going "open-source"
R3CEV=Supernova
https://r3cev.com/press/2016/10/20/exclusive-blockchain-platform-developed-by-banks-to-be-open-source

Is someone able to decrypt it?

[hv_]

"City banks plan to hoard bitcoins to help them pay cyber ransoms"
Experts say blue chip companies have decided it’s cheaper to deal with extortionists than risk damaging attacks


https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/22/city-banks-plan-to-hoard-bitcoins-to-help-them-pay-cyber-ransoms

Intrinsic value!

+1. hahahaha. Thats a good one!

[marcus1986]

Toknormal, do you see a possibility in passing the ATH or even $1K mark before the new year's eve ?

I see a possibility but I'm afraid I can't guarantee anything  

Factors that would make the outcome more favourable include:

 • Major Segwit/Lightning news followed by some big mainstream monetary adopter
 • Wintlygross ETF lift-off
 • Worldwide economic collapse and implosion of the debt bubble
 • Further massive Chinese devaluation of offshore Yuan followed by a FED response of renewed QE to offset a stock-market slump on growth fears
 • The penny finally dropping with major gold bugs like SD Metals and Mike Baloney that Gold has a problem with travelling through wires and has therefore lost its tenet monetary property

Take your pick !

An amazing future expecting us! Hold your BTC and buying more!

[toknormal]

The penny finally dropping with major gold bugs like SD Metals and Mike Baloney that Gold has a problem with travelling through wires and has therefore lost its tenet monetary property

Just to clarify what "tenet" of Gold's properties I was referring to there...



(Sorry Mike. Loved your videos. The theory's perfect, you just identified the wrong asset. EVIDENCE: Physical Gold is over-levered >300:1 by its electronic counterpart and will remain so due to problems with "portability". Imagine if it was still a bearer instrument like Bitcoin. You'd be looking at > $quarter of a million per ounce by now).

[becoin]

(Sorry Mike. Loved your videos. The theory's perfect, you just identified the wrong asset.

Sorry guys but you don't get it. Bitcoin will not be used the way you imagine. Bitcoin will not be used directly as money between merchants and consumers. Different tokens based on bitcoin and backed by bitcoin will be used in competing payment systems where moving bitcoin on the blockchain will be the settlement layer. Gold will always be the ultimate money. The only but very important advantage of bitcoin compared to gold is that bitcoin is cheaper to audit and provide proof of reserves.

[toknormal]

Bitcoin will not be used directly as money between merchants and consumers. Different tokens based on bitcoin and backed by bitcoin will be used in competing payment systems where moving bitcoin on the blockchain will be the settlement layer.

I actually agree with this. I see 2 types of "money". One with price stability and goods denomination as its priority which (it necessarily follows) must be inflationary. One for long term store of value which (it necessarily follows) must be deflationary.

Bitcoin therefore falls in the latter category due to its limited supply and, as you say, may be used as a capital base to back other monetary exchange media.

The only but very important advantage of bitcoin compared to gold is that bitcoin is cheaper to audit and provide proof of reserves.

What about "bearer token" status ? Isn't that kind of the elephant in the room here ? Why do you think gold has lost the ability to anchor its value to its restricted supply ? This is something many people seem to take for granted - because they say that gold has "worked for thousands of years" so it must work now. The only problem with that is that we had physical markets for thousands of years and we don't anymore, so there's no longer the same basis for gold's monetary value - at least as far as it's derived from its monetary properties.

Gold is not the ultimate money. It has failed miserably, for example, to signal the massive amounts of fiat monetary expansion that's gone on in recent years which is one of its primary roles as a monetary asset. It has also suffered massively from the decoupling of ownership transfer and possession transfer in its significant markets. I think people say that "Gold is the ultimate money" simply because thats just something that everybody says. But when you actually analyse it, it isn't.

I'd say that it will still be good for sovereigns - because they do actually take possession when it matters, like China is doing. But apart from backing national currencies, its role is now limited as is it's upside compared to an asset like Bitcoin IMO.

[Dafar]

Where is Adam??

JJG says he talked to him a while back and Adam said he was hacked and locked out. Hasn't bothered to reclaim his account.

I wish he'd do something about it. I miss his absurd humor and drunken shenanigans.

Also, the poll desperately needs changing.

He needs to fix his account and come back. Adam... if you're reading this, COME BACK

[becoin]

Gold is not the ultimate money. It has failed miserably, for example, to signal the massive amounts of fiat monetary expansion that's gone on in recent years which is one of its primary roles as a monetary asset.

You're wrong. Keep both gold and bitcoin in your portfolio!

[toknormal]

You're wrong. Keep both gold and bitcoin in your portfolio!

Which type of gold ?

The paper type ? It's available in unlimited supply.

The physical type ? It's un-tradeable in any significant quantity.

These are now two distinct assets which is something most gold bugs have failed to realise. Yet one can't work without the other which means they act as a mutual attenuator on each other's value.

The most favourable trading conditions gold has ever seen since the great depression have just occurred during the last 8 years, yet it lost value. Maybe people who still promote it as a 'safe haven' should start asking themselves why  

[Spaceman_Spiff]

(Sorry Mike. Loved your videos. The theory's perfect, you just identified the wrong asset.

Sorry guys but you don't get it. Bitcoin will not be used the way you imagine. Bitcoin will not be used directly as money between merchants and consumers. Different tokens based on bitcoin and backed by bitcoin will be used in competing payment systems where moving bitcoin on the blockchain will be the settlement layer. Gold will always be the ultimate money. The only but very important advantage of bitcoin compared to gold is that bitcoin is cheaper to audit and provide proof of reserves.

Lightning will use just use bitcoins, so will sidechains. If bitcoin will be the settlement layer, then the currency in use is bitcoin, not some other token.
The only advantage that I see to gold is its immutability.  Gold will always be gold.  Whereas bitcoin represents a form of agreement between people, the code of which is more changeable.  This means bitcoin can evolve, both in a positive or a negative way.  In a way bitcoin is a grand social/game theoretic experiment.  Will a great form of money be born, and will the essential elements of that money stay stable (is the system such that its incentives cause any deviation to 'autocorrect'), or will it in the crumble in the end?

[becoin]

Which type of gold ?

The paper type ? It's available in unlimited supply.

The physical type ? It's un-tradeable in any significant quantity.

Only investment grade physical gold. It is tradeable everywhere!

[Spaceman_Spiff]

Bitcoin will not be used directly as money between merchants and consumers. Different tokens based on bitcoin and backed by bitcoin will be used in competing payment systems where moving bitcoin on the blockchain will be the settlement layer.

I actually agree with this. I see 2 types of "money". One with price stability and goods denomination as its priority which (it necessarily follows) must be inflationary. One for long term store of value which (it necessarily follows) must be deflationary.

I disagree. Why would I as an individual hold anything else than the deflationary kind of money if it is equally easy to store and spend it as the inflationary type.  Paper and digital dollars were easier to transact with than gold coins, bitcoin will hopefully be as easy and cheap (if not more) to transact with as digital fiat.

Which type of gold ?

The paper type ? It's available in unlimited supply.

The physical type ? It's un-tradeable in any significant quantity.

Only investment grade physical gold. It is tradeable everywhere!

The margins gold dealers ask are generally quite high.

[toknormal]

I disagree. Why would I as an individual hold anything else than the deflationary kind of money if it is equally easy to store and spend it as the inflationary type.

Because modern societies don't like prices floating all over the place due to a fixed supply monetary base. It makes it impossible to plan and you'd have loads of manufacturing businesses, for example, simply going bust. Even if you did have a fixed supply they'd just invest in a huge amount of hedging derivatives to minimise their exposure to price volatility and that would inflate the effective money supply instead.

As economies expand, demands for liquidity have to be met. They can either be met by expanding and contracting the money supply (and keeping prices relatively stable) or by price inflation - which will just carry a similar cost in terms of adverse commercial conditions, bankruptcies and localised losses. If you're a car manufacturer, you're more interested in the "stable price" type of money. If you're a long term saver then you're more interested in the "stable supply" type of money. There have always been these two types and always will be.

Only investment grade physical gold. It is tradeable everywhere!

Well you can't sell the gold bar under your bed to a customer on the other side of the planet and deliver it at the same time, so it isn't tradable everywhere. You can transfer ownership to them instantly but not possession.

The whole basis of gold's value traditionally is that it was a bearer token where possession and ownership were synonymous. If you like, in that sense it was the "physical bitcoin" of its day. But it is no longer able to perform that role because we've moved to electronic platforms and left the physical behind. That's the reason it failed to gain anything over the last 8 years of money printing.