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Author Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]  (Read 857233 times)
solex
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August 07, 2013, 09:24:37 AM
 #481

The withdrawal queues are definitely at MtGox because people can wait 6 or 8 weeks for their transfer, request a cancel, and the funds are credited to their trading account immediately. So the wires are not being actioned. "Confirmed" means "we will do it one day, if ever".

The bad banks work by flagging / blacklisting accounts so in order to counteract their measures Gox is trying to play hide and seek: open a number of accounts with other banks.

I agree with this that Gox's transfers are being throttled by their banks. Probably because of US pressure after the Dwolla/MSB fiasco. There must be a daily dollar cap, which means only their biggest, most elite, whale customers get looked after. Everyone else spins in the wind.

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August 07, 2013, 10:28:52 AM
 #482

Ok here's my speculation of the day:

There is at least one major international bank (Citi) which is part of many SWIFT chains and is refusing transfers to/from Gox.
Maybe Bank of America is also causing troubles along the chain. Why? Because they can. ("yeah Gox, come after us in court if you can afford it")
Those banks are playing dirty tricks like refusing some of the transfers and causing late chargebacks. That would explains why Japan transfers are allegedly working fine.
The SEPA problem is of different nature: all SEPA banks atm honour the transfers but the MtGox business is "not so desirable" for the Polish bank they use, whatever reason there might be. So SEPA is slow because the bank put a cap on the maximum amounts that can go out via SEPA.

MtGox chooses not to clearly communicate the banking problems they are having because doing so would cause a sudden run on them. A slow death is better than a sudden death. Maybe at this point in time they still hope to bring down their volume to a manageable size without totally disappearing into oblivion.

The bad banks work by flagging / blacklisting accounts so in order to counteract their measures Gox is trying to play hide and seek: open a number of accounts with other banks. Splitting the money across multiple pots allows them to be more resistant to individual account freezes. But it also implies a management overhead and extra costs for moving the money across accounts / keeping them replenished.

In the meanwhile nobody knowns the size of the Dwolla seizure, nor whether any other seizures have happened, nor the amount of damage caused by reversed deposits.

As of today, were there to be a run on Gox, they would end up insolvent and bankrupt. Which still has a high likeliness to happen.
I think they are hanging around hoping to find a way out of the tunnel.


makes sense

+1 Gox's silence on the DWOLLA issue they never really addressed as they said they would back when it first came out (3 months ago?). That speaks volumes. Then the sudden "TWO WEEK" delay which from what I gather is more like 7-8 weeks currently.

Both of these two issues combined + silence really isn't a good thing. Reminds me of when a ponzi (not that they were running one) goes bust there is a TWO WEEK delay and then silence or excuses. In this case, silence.

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August 07, 2013, 11:05:47 AM
 #483

i think the only way around this, right now, is to have someone set up a corporation in Japan, sell BTC on Gox, transfer to corporate bank account in JP ideally denominated in USD, then transfer to bitstamp or btce. buy btc there, transfer to mtgox, and repeat cycle...  

this would cause the exchange rates to equalize.

someone would need to have sufficiently large funding of this to make it worth the hassle of the extra paperwork and fees...

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August 07, 2013, 12:32:37 PM
 #484

i think the only way around this, right now, is to have someone set up a corporation in Japan, sell BTC on Gox, transfer to corporate bank account in JP ideally denominated in USD, then transfer to bitstamp or btce. buy btc there, transfer to mtgox, and repeat cycle...  

this would cause the exchange rates to equalize.

someone would need to have sufficiently large funding of this to make it worth the hassle of the extra paperwork and fees...

Gox might not like outsiders jumping in for a cut to something that might be a very lucrative and dominating way for them to make profit currently. Gox could also very much like the difference in exchange rates in their current situation. On the other hand Gox could very much like outsiders jumping in to give Gox more capital to work with. What I am saying that you might experience unexpected(?) delays on getting USD out from Gox to your new JP account. Also since you don't know exactly what are the problems Gox is having with the banks you might also experience an unexpected(?) freeze on your account in the JP bank if the bank suspects you are working as a front for Gox.

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August 07, 2013, 02:20:40 PM
 #485

Tell me about it... been waiting a month now, don't want to use them again and the support just replies with canned responses that don't really update you on the status!

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August 07, 2013, 04:15:31 PM
 #486

Got today a SEPA-Withdraw (1000 EUR)

Withdraw requested on: 2013/06/27

Cleared: 2013/08/06

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August 07, 2013, 04:53:52 PM
 #487

Looks like the SEPA backlog is getting shorter quickly, i'm still waiting SWIFT from 6/17.

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August 07, 2013, 06:13:12 PM
 #488

Ok here's my speculation of the day: There is at least one major international bank (Citi) which is part of many SWIFT chains and is refusing transfers to/from Gox. Maybe Bank of America is also causing troubles along the chain. Why? Because they can. ("yeah Gox, come after us in court if you can afford it")
Very unlikely. If a US bank did that, it would be visible at the US customer end. Nobody is saying that Mt. Gox claimed they sent a USD wire transfer and the funds were not received by the recipient. Nobody is saying that they sent a wire transfer to Mt. Gox and it was rejected by their sending bank.

Quit trying to find excuses for Mt. Gox.
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August 07, 2013, 08:29:01 PM
 #489

Was that for an international wire transfer through the SWIFT system? Details would be useful.  SWIFT rules don't allow banks to revoke transactions for SwiftPay transactions up to USD 20,000 (50,000 EUR between banks in the EU). Settlement has to occur within six days. "Priority" transactions are even less revocable. Banks have to sign a service level agreement with SWIFT to use the system. Once the bank has sent payment instructions via SWIFT, the bank is obligated to cover them with bank funds. It's not at the option of the sending bank.  

SWIFT is compliant with relatively recent (few years) international AML rules which require all covering payments to include details of the payment that they cover.  Indeed, SWIFT introduced the MT 202 COV message a few years ago specifically to comply with AML requirements.

I think the AML rules trump the SWIFT rules.  No US correspondent bank will process a covering payment for a transaction that (they believe) violates US law, and SWIFT would be mad to try and draft a contract that requires them to violate US law.

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August 07, 2013, 08:35:54 PM
 #490

Nobody is saying that Mt. Gox claimed they sent a USD wire transfer and the funds were not received by the recipient.

Almost exactly that is claimed here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=231960.msg2540042#msg2540042 (more specifically - as I said previously - the payment is received, but then reversed when the covering payment is blocked)

Indeed, MT 202 COV SWIFT messages exist precisely so that US correspondent banks can block 'illegal' USD transactions.

There is a link in that same thread to the famous example of US correspondent banks blocking a payment for cuban cigars that was made between two European companies.

roy
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August 07, 2013, 09:02:31 PM
 #491

So SEPA is slow because the bank put a cap on the maximum amounts that can go out via SEPA.
Would that be legal?
After all SEPA has been created with the purpose of having 1-day transfers, so I kind of doubt a bank can "just delay them".
My bank has a limit on how much I'm allowed to transfer each day and each month.  I think it is quite common, but most people and businesses stay far below this limit.  I can only raise mine to a certain level, and I don't know how I can go above that level.  Probably by paying high fees.

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August 07, 2013, 09:11:21 PM
 #492

Nobody is saying that Mt. Gox claimed they sent a USD wire transfer and the funds were not received by the recipient.
There is a link in that same thread to the famous example of US correspondent banks blocking a payment for cuban cigars that was made between two European companies.
I tried a new bank one day.  I cancelled my account after one day after trying three transfers.  One of my transfers, to Intersango, got blocked because this bank used USSAnian Citibank as intermediate for international transfers, and Citibank blocked transfers to Intersango.  I haven't had this problem with any other bank I have used.  The bank was Skandiabanken, btw.  Stay away!  Citibank is actively blocking transfers to some exchanges, and is a hub for international transfers.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
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August 08, 2013, 09:28:56 AM
 #493

i think the only way around this, right now, is to have someone set up a corporation in Japan, sell BTC on Gox, transfer to corporate bank account in JP ideally denominated in USD, then transfer to bitstamp or btce. buy btc there, transfer to mtgox, and repeat cycle...  

this would cause the exchange rates to equalize.

someone would need to have sufficiently large funding of this to make it worth the hassle of the extra paperwork and fees...

Gox might not like outsiders jumping in for a cut to something that might be a very lucrative and dominating way for them to make profit currently. Gox could also very much like the difference in exchange rates in their current situation. On the other hand Gox could very much like outsiders jumping in to give Gox more capital to work with. What I am saying that you might experience unexpected(?) delays on getting USD out from Gox to your new JP account. Also since you don't know exactly what are the problems Gox is having with the banks you might also experience an unexpected(?) freeze on your account in the JP bank if the bank suspects you are working as a front for Gox.

uh what the hell are you even talking about???

there is chat log floating around with magicaltux saying jp transfers take 2 or 3 days...  come back to earth please...

setting up a sub for a us corp parent is nothing unusual

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August 08, 2013, 11:36:35 AM
 #494

uh what the hell are you even talking about???

there is chat log floating around with magicaltux saying jp transfers take 2 or 3 days.

I am confident what I was saying was pretty trivially easy to understand for a big bunch of people.

The jp transfers might make it in 2 or 3 days until perhaps some day they don't. Who knows for sure anything what is actually going on?

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August 08, 2013, 11:42:39 AM
 #495

uh what the hell are you even talking about???

there is chat log floating around with magicaltux saying jp transfers take 2 or 3 days.

I am confident what I was saying was pretty trivially easy to understand for a big bunch of people.

The jp transfers might make it in 2 or 3 days until perhaps some day they don't. Who knows for sure anything what is going to happen tomorrow?

yea sure we can get hit by a comet or the lake of fire will appear and we all fall in.... get real...  perhaps... maybe... coulda shoulda woulda.... this is not how business operates, you take a horse that runs and you use it so long as it walks...

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August 08, 2013, 03:30:49 PM
 #496

The bank was Skandiabanken, btw.  Stay away!
Just so you know, Skandiabanken did not block you, they don't even do currencies. DNB did, they handle everything but EUR for Skandiabanken (if you look at your receiving address for international payments there then you will see that they go to DNB not SKB).
I sent EUR (SEPA).  Skandiabanken told me they use Citibank for all their foreign transfers, and Citibank blocked it.  I complained to "Finansklagenemnda", and Skandiabanken refunded all fees I had when I express transferred the amount from the bank I normally use.  I noticed that Skandiabanken has terrible currency conversion rates as well, and I actually saved money by paying the fee to transfer from my normal bank.  Hidden fees like this is another reason to stay away from Skandiabanken.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
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August 08, 2013, 03:32:51 PM
 #497

there is chat log floating around with magicaltux saying jp transfers take 2 or 3 days...  come back to earth please...
Hours, not days.  For deposits.  Withdrawals take up to one day.

Sjå https://bitmynt.no for veksling av bitcoin mot norske kroner.  Trygt, billig, raskt og enkelt sidan 2010.
I buy with EUR and other currencies at a fair market price when you want to sell.  See http://bitmynt.no/eurprice.pl
Warning: "Bitcoin" XT, Classic, Unlimited and the likes are scams. Don't use them, and don't listen to their shills.
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August 09, 2013, 04:25:46 AM
 #498

Today I closed my account @ MtGox.
I was one of the oldest customers. It is not possible for me to withdraw any funds to my Dutch Bank without make an NEW template. In the past I was using an old template without problems.

In summary:
For reason you can study my last tickets

In the past I always withdrew my funds successfully using an existing BANK template. (Look @ my withdrawals in the past!)

Withdrawals using this old and existing template caused the error: Cancel of: Withdraw to account RABOBANK NEDERLAND Invalid currency, your withdraw must be made from EUR

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE NEW TEMPLATE I MADE (a couple hours ago) AFTER THIS ERROR
You blame this error because of this NEW TEMPLATE is not verified.

But the error occurred BEFORE I made the new Bank template.
You make it impossible to do business for me in a simple way

You are losing now one of the most loyal and oldest customers

Regards,




Hello,

We need your cooperation in this matter.

To have your bank account verified you should first fill in the identity form associated to your Mt.Gox account(write in your name, DOB, address etc).

In order you can do that, we have to downgrade your account. Once you filled the form, your account will be upgraded to "verified" status again.

When your account is downgraded you will not be able to complete trades or do any transactions, so we suggest you to finish all activities on your account, tell us that you are ready, we will downgrade your account, you will fill in the form and let us know asap that you are done so that your account can be returned to verified status quickly.

As a first step, let us know when you are ready to fill in the form.

We are sorry about all inconvenience caused.

I have no time to write this down in a structured way. I have to work
Still I want this to share here.

(Using Bitstamp without problems)
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August 09, 2013, 07:42:30 AM
 #499

If Mt. Gox owes you money, here's something you can do easily. The SEC says Bitcoins are an investment contract, and a judge has agreed. That means the SEC has jurisdiction over Bitcoin broker/dealers.

File a complaint with the SEC against Mt. Gox, for their defaulting on customer funds withdrawals. (Click here to file a complaint.) Do your homework. Get the street address of Mt. Gox in Japan right. Get the company name right. Make the point that they're months late on their cash payments to many customers. That's a huge red flag to the SEC.

The SEC does go after unregistered foreign broker/dealers dealing with US customers.  Such dealers have to register with the SEC if they deal with US customers directly and hold customer funds. Mt. Gox has a legal U.S presence; they have a registered agent in Delaware so they can file with FinCen. Mention that address in the complaint.

If you file a complaint, a copy goes to Mt. Gox, sent by the Securities and Exchange Commission. That will get Mt. Gox's attention. They have to answer the SEC. You'll probably get paid very fast.

Just because Mt. Gox is in Japan doesn't mean the SEC can't fine them. Also, the US SEC and the Japan Financial Services Agency have a formal cooperation agreement. If the SEC tells the FSA that Mt. Gox seems to be in financial trouble, the FSA will be interested. The FSA has the authority to audit Mt. Gox any time they want to.

You don't have to put up with Mt. Gox's excuses. You can drop a big hammer on them.
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August 09, 2013, 08:00:26 AM
 #500

If Mt. Gox owes you money, here's something you can do easily. The SEC says Bitcoins are an investment contract, and a judge has agreed. That means the SEC has jurisdiction over Bitcoin broker/dealers.

File a complaint with the SEC against Mt. Gox, for their defaulting on customer funds withdrawals. (Click here to file a complaint.) Do your homework. Get the street address of Mt. Gox in Japan right. Get the company name right. Make the point that they're months late on their cash payments to many customers. That's a huge red flag to the SEC.

The SEC does go after unregistered foreign broker/dealers dealing with US customers.  Such dealers have to register with the SEC if they deal with US customers directly and hold customer funds. Mt. Gox has a legal U.S presence; they have a registered agent in Delaware so they can file with FinCen. Mention that address in the complaint.

If you file a complaint, a copy goes to Mt. Gox, sent by the Securities and Exchange Commission. That will get Mt. Gox's attention. They have to answer the SEC. You'll probably get paid very fast.

Just because Mt. Gox is in Japan doesn't mean the SEC can't fine them. Also, the US SEC and the Japan Financial Services Agency have a formal cooperation agreement. If the SEC tells the FSA that Mt. Gox seems to be in financial trouble, the FSA will be interested. The FSA has the authority to audit Mt. Gox any time they want to.

You don't have to put up with Mt. Gox's excuses. You can drop a big hammer on them.

Thanks a ton for that.
I will also file a complaint with the SEC, and then close my account at MtGox , too.
I have been with them since September 2010.

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