MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering]

[sturle]

“It is just a random fluctuation, and IMHO completely not interesting “

It is not random just a smaller sample sizes, grown-ups should know what random means.

I know very well what random means, thank you.  By choosing a smaller sample you amplify randomness.

Below 15% now.

You are still comparing apples and bicycles.  Why do you include European trading on Bitstamp, but not on MtGox?  Why do you include Japanese trading on Bitstamp, but not on MtGox.  Because if you did, you wouldn't get the number you wanted, right?

The largest exchange in the world is Room77 in Berlin.  No other exchange trade that many BTC against burgers every day.  No, wait!  I have larger volume than all other exchanges in the world trading NOK/BTC, so all the rest are tiny compared to me.  Even MtGox.  See, by choosing an arbitrary metric I can skew the numbers any way I want.

[leemar]

“It is just a random fluctuation, and IMHO completely not interesting “

It is not random just a smaller sample sizes, grown-ups should know what random means.

I know very well what random means, thank you.  By choosing a smaller sample you amplify randomness.

Below 15% now.

You are still comparing apples and bicycles.  Why do you include European trading on Bitstamp, but not on MtGox?  Why do you include Japanese trading on Bitstamp, but not on MtGox.  Because if you did, you wouldn't get the number you wanted, right?

The largest exchange in the world is Room77 in Berlin.  No other exchange trade that many BTC against burgers every day.  No, wait!  I have larger volume than all other exchanges in the world trading NOK/BTC, so all the rest are tiny compared to me.  Even MtGox.  See, by choosing an arbitrary metric I can skew the numbers any way I want.

I just thought it was an interesting observation about $US traded volume on Gox clearly you don’t, and I don't like being insulted for no reason.

[Alpaca Bob]

All currencies combined it's 23% for 24hr.

That really is pretty darn low.

[leemar]

All currencies combined it's 23% for 24hr.

That really is pretty darn low.

But is it statistically significant 

[sturle]

I just thought it was an interesting observation about $US traded volume on Gox clearly you don’t, and I don't like being insulted for no reason.

It would be interresting observation if it was accompanied with an interresting analysis, and not a statement which is wrong:

Gox is currently the third exchange by volume at 16%

Yes, the USD keeps falling.  People seem to flee away from the USD where it is possible to do so.  On MtGox as well.  If you sell BTC because you expect the price to fall in a few days, you don't want to sit on a different currency which is even more likely to fall.

[Savior]

There is something I don't get, people who buy bitcoins now, would not do so on mtgox for obvious reason, higher price. So on mtgox it is only people selling btc for a slow withdrawal. (except daytraders, people with fiat on mtgox buying bitcoins to withdraw etc). So shouldn't this mean that mtgox and bitstamp would get closer and closer since no new fiat should enter mtgox? Eventually there should be little fiat left on mtgox even if the withdrawals are slow.  I don't get why the spread keeps being so high for so long.

Anyone know?

[Luno]

The nagging question is that if volume is so low on Gox, price is easily fixed at whatever they see fit.

The walls look the same as before the flash crash to 110,-. That's some coincidence.

[manfred]

Anyone knows the fees associated with withdrawing money for gox to a citi or BoA account? I see 2000 yen, so about U$S20 but is there any other fee? The FAQ states "Additional fees may be charged by the receiving bank or an intermediate bank." Clear as mud uh?
Anyone received an international wire transfer from Gox lately? Any % based fees?

International you can forget about. A "expedited" or "emergency" withdrawal takes between 2 weeks and 4 weeks and cost 5%

[joesmoe2012]

Looks like Gox is back on track for domestic yen withdrawals.   My latest ones completed in 2 days.

Glad to hear at least something's on track.

[Alpaca Bob]

There is something I don't get, people who buy bitcoins now, would not do so on mtgox for obvious reason, higher price. So on mtgox it is only people selling btc for a slow withdrawal. (except daytraders, people with fiat on mtgox buying bitcoins to withdraw etc). So shouldn't this mean that mtgox and bitstamp would get closer and closer since no new fiat should enter mtgox? Eventually there should be little fiat left on mtgox even if the withdrawals are slow.  I don't get why the spread keeps being so high for so long.

Anyone know?

A lot of people who want out of Gox buy bitcoin and move that to other exchanges to cash out. This artificially drives the price up on Gox.

(And there's also people who are willing to take the risk and do it the other way round for arbitrage. Apparently the market decided that arbitrage should cost about 10%.)

But is it statistically significant

I would say so, yes. MtGox has now been at 28% for three days btw. (And that's not even including all exchanges.)

http://bitcoinity.org/markets/list?currency=ALL&span=3d

[mrtbitcoin]

Alpaca Bob noted:

"A lot of people who want out of Gox buy bitcoin and move that to other exchanges to cash out. This artificially drives the price up on Gox."

I think this is probably true. I wonder if in turn that was driven by issues with MtGOX recent bank and/or Dwolla account issues. Perhaps after a few things resolve the exchanges will come to closer agreement.

This is just a bit of speculation based on my very limited experience. Still excited to see this economic experiment unfold, it could certainly be bigger still in the future!

Best wishes for everyones success!

[justusranvier]

This is getting ridiculous.

Why don't any of these exchange volume comparison sites make a simple, easy to read graph that shows total BTC exchanged per exchange?

Is it not as simple as summing the various currency pairs for those exchanges which support multiple currencies?

[justusranvier]

http://bitcoinity.org/markets/list?currency=USD&span=24h shows you the total USD volume at all exchanges (well, all the ones Bitcoinity counts, anyway).

What are you missing?

Pie charts and area graphs.

[BlueTemplar]

BitStamp :
Withdrawn (SEPA) $376.37 on Sept. 29, 2013, 10:23 a.m., received 276,82€ at my bank on 02/10/2013. (4 work days)

MtGox :
Withdrawn (SEPA) 307.60000 € on 2013/09/29 10:23:21, received 304,52€ at my bank on 08/10/2013 (through Mt. Gox Poland Inc.). (8 work days)

Previously :

BitStamp :
Withdrawn (SEPA) $523.13 on July 25, 2013, 8:59 p.m., received 391,48€ at my bank on 29/07/2013. (2 work days)

MtGox :
Withdrawn (SEPA) 410.02€ on 2013/07/25 20:59:09, received 405,92€ at my bank on 31/07/2013 (through Mt. Gox Poland Inc.). (4 work days)

[mp420]

BitStamp :
Withdrawn (SEPA) $376.37 on Sept. 29, 2013, 10:23 a.m., received 276,82€ at my bank on 02/10/2013. (4 work days)

MtGox :
Withdrawn (SEPA) 307.60000 € on 2013/09/29 10:23:21, received 304,52€ at my bank on 08/10/2013 (through Mt. Gox Poland Inc.). (8 work days)

Whaat? This would mean Gox is almost up to date regarding below-threshold SEPA withdrawals. (Or do they pick the ones that fill their quota optimally rather than process the oldest first?)

[sturle]

I would say so, yes. MtGox has now been at 28% for three days btw. (And that's not even including all exchanges.)

http://bitcoinity.org/markets/list?currency=ALL&span=3d

Interresting – if you chose any other time period, MtGox comes out on top.  And it is closer to 29% than 28%.  It doesn't include all currencies on MtGox either, but the volume in the missing currencies is so low I doubt it matters.

[Alpaca Bob]

I would say so, yes. MtGox has now been at 28% for three days btw. (And that's not even including all exchanges.)

http://bitcoinity.org/markets/list?currency=ALL&span=3d

Interresting – if you chose any other time period, MtGox comes out on top.  And it is closer to 29% than 28%.  It doesn't include all currencies on MtGox either, but the volume in the missing currencies is so low I doubt it matters.

I apologize for finding this specific statistic interesting, Sturle 

[sturle]

2. You are comparing apples and bicycles.  On some exchanges all the volume is counted as USD.  MtGox has a working multi-currency exchange.  This is their main feature.  If you deposit EUR and buy or sell and withdraw EUR, the trade will be reported as EUR.  Some other exchanges (noteably Bitstamp) will report this as USD.

2. I did not know Bitstamp aggregated all currencies and quoted them as dollar exchange volumes,  I though they just traded dollars again apologies.

Sturle, I respect your opinion on a lot of things even though I disagree with it but not on this one. My humble opinion is that this statement is just utterly stupid.

Bitstamp has the USD/BTC currency pair. That's it. You can only trade USD against BTC there.

I know.  This is their biggest shortcoming.  They should really do something about it.  Now there is an extra conversion fee of 0.4% to deposit or withdraw EUR, and in addition to this there is the uncertainty of the USD value. :-(

This is why all their volume is obviously counted as USD.[/b] This also means that Bitstamp comes out on top if we compare Bitstamp's USD volume with MtGox's USD volume right now (16,808 BTC traded in USD at Bitstamp today, 9,314 at MtGox).

Yes, but I am sure you understand this is a meaningless comparision.  You compare one exchanges total volume to another exchange's volume in one single currency.  This is extra pointless now that people are getting out of USD for obvious reasons.

What Sturle is trying to argue is this:

If you deposit EUR to Bitstamp then that money is automatically converted to USD. It is therefore, correctly, counted as USD when you trade the USD now in your Bitstamp account for Bitcoins. Sturle seems to think that Bitstamp should report USD which has previously been EUR as EUR because that somehow makes sense to him. I think that would make zero sense.

No, I never wrote that.  I do not think Bitstamp should report in any other way.  Just that people should keep this in mind when comparing volumes.  Bitstamp's USD volume is artificuially inflated by the way the exchange works, while MtGox report actual volume in all currencies separately.

I have a bank account in Sweden. It's got SEK in it. My deposits to Bitstamp goes like this: I enter the amount of EUR I want to send using SEPA. The SEK in my account is then converted to EUR and sent to Bitstamp. Bitstamp then converts it to USD and deposits it in my account at Bitstamp. So what is in my Bitstamp account when my funds arrive? SEK? EUR? No, it's USD that ends up in my account. I can then send that USD out with an international wire or request a SEPA transfer and have that USD converted to EUR and then SEK. (if anyone is wondering, sending SEK ends up costing me 0.1 on the USD/SEK rate, if USD/SEK is 6.47 then I'd end up with an efficient rate at 6.57 and that's what I'd consider the cost/rate of my USD in my spreadsheet).

Yep.  Bitstamp's failure to implement proper multi-currency trading is quite expensive for their customers.  (The SEK/EUR conversion rate you get in your bank is bad, btw.  I'm sure you can find a cheaper one.)  And you are forced to keep your assets in USD or BTC, and have nowhere to run if you expect BTC to fall and USD to drop heavily on Monday morning.  Your only rescue is to buy BTC and transfer your BTC to MtGox to sell for another currency.

The way I see it: If you send something that ends up as USD in your Bitstamp account then USD is what you have in your Bitstamp account and it is not at all relevant if this money was in the form of JPY, SEK, EUR, NOK, gold, rocks or leaves before it ended up as USD. USD is what you have at Bitstamp and USD is what you trade at Bitstamp and USD volume is what it will and will be counted as.

Of course.  But I hope you agree that comparing USD volume on Bitstamp with the USD volume of an exchange where you can trade BTC against multiple currencies is completely meaningless.  You are comparing total volume with an arbitrary share of the total volume.  Comparing Bitstamp USD volume with MtGox USD volume is equivalent with comparing Bitstamp USD volume with MtGox JPY volume or MtGox SEK volume.

[mp420]

No, I never wrote that.  I do not think Bitstamp should report in any other way.  Just that people should keep this in mind when comparing volumes.  Bitstamp's USD volume is artificuially inflated by the way the exchange works, while MtGox report actual volume in all currencies separately.

To be fair, MtGox volume is somewhat artificially inflated by customers converting their USD to EUR or JPY via BTC in order to be able to withdraw the fiat. Many people are stuck at Gox with GoxUSD because it seemed like a good idea at the time (for example I believed USD to be a more stable currency than EUR, which is why I sold my BTC for USD instead of EUR).

[manfred]

http://bitcoinity.org/markets/list?currency=USD&span=24h shows you the total USD volume at all exchanges (well, all the ones Bitcoinity counts, anyway).

What are you missing?

Pie charts and area graphs.