Off-Topic

[ak49er]

This thread sure is good for one thing if nothing else.  The display of righteous indignation really brightens my day.

I keep waiting for Marvin the Martian to turn up and ask "Where's the kaboom?  There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom."

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[Silvas]

Silvas, I know your really pissed right now (read your fu post in yifu's thread), I get that I really do, but these questions must be answered by Amir or Justin from terrahash, based upon the fact that yifu is now pushing everybody to a refund and has blamed the community for his fucked up business practices.

That answer that they gave was what 2 months ago? New conditions have arisen and they must be held accountable for their actions or lack thereof and commitments.

I am sorry for your loss and everybody else's but wtf do you think I have been trying to say all along?

Everybody was/is putting me on ignore or calling me a kid or an asshole or a whining loser or whatever because I was asking questions that I wasn't getting answers to, nor was anybody else for that matter.

Do you not see that terrahash is pulling the same shit as yifu? They don't even have a fully working k16 yet!

You guys should be up in fucking arms right now... A partial refund? Are you kidding me?

Oh don't get me wrong.  I was just figuring you didn't realize that they actually gave this answer themselves.
As far as you saying it all along, I've been saying for awhile that this was going to go bad, and defending people wanting refunds against certain people here jacking off TH and saying they're committing fraud or being immoral by going after refunds.

Honestly, I don't see any way (unless TH has only their own money sunk into this and not pre-order money, which they've already admitted they used preorder money) for TH to give full refunds to everyone.
What I see happening is them offering partial refunds and saying they're so sorry but it's not their fault and it's beyond their control, and I see the usual suspects defending them on that, and continuing to refuse to acknowledge that using customers' preorder money to fund your business before you can deliver the product is both a bad idea and in a lot of jurisdictions illegal.
I've been called a 'pretend entrepreneur' for pointing that out; I've been called an 'armchair engineer' for pointing out that when it comes to whether a product will work or not, you don't assume, you test.

Honestly I blame it on the way society is moving these days.  More and more, I look at the world around me and I see a complete lack of willingness to take personal responsibility for one's actions.  Along with that, I see people defending others who could have avoided issues if they had just done shit right, but wanted to take shortcuts or got greedy and it all went bad.
People forcing the consequences or results of their choices onto other people, because 'what am I supposed to do?  I'm in this situation, I have no choice! It's not my fault!' yeah, well... who put you in that situation?  Oh, that's right, you did.
As long as we continue the trend of enabling others' bad behavior by defending it, whether it be with bitcoin, with preorders, or anything else in life... we will continue to see people behaving badly and that bad behavior escalating.

As far as this goes, however... nothing is certain at this point.  Yifu is making the returns form, but I haven't seen anything specifically stating that he's cancelling and refunding orders.
Maybe he's just offering refunds to those who want them.  Maybe TH will keep their orders and hope to get the chips.
Maybe those chips will arrive, maybe they won't.  If they do, maybe they'll arrive quickly, or maybe they'll take a year or longer.  At this point, I don't know, and I'm not entirely sure it even matters.

[btceic]

Silvas, I think we are mostly on the same page about all this, I for one take personal responsibility quite seriously and Amir's and Justin's complete and utter lack of any respect for anything just takes the cake.

More info from zefirs group buy.

Update: Endgame

With ASICMINER today announcing blades for as low as 3.5BTC, it appeared that Avalon chips that do not mine today are not going to break even any more. While those blades went already out of stock after some hours, the new price for mining rig is officially set. Essentially this means that if Avalon does not ship the remaining chips fully within the next two weeks, they become worth less than their shipping costs.

Driven by this event, today I was flooded with refund requests that built up a queue of ~2000 chips. I do not expect any takers for this and it is realistic to assume that there will be no further refunds.


I am sad to admit that I do not believe in a fast and complete delivery of the remaining batches. This stopped to be a game the moment this group-buy alone funneled $500k to Avalon. Although we have only a small set of 'no BS rules', we still have a written commitment to deliver in time as part of the ToS. With so many community members taking a loss directly or indirectly through Avalon failing to meet their schedule, we (together with other customers) need to consider taking serious actions to end this tragedy.

At this stage our options are as follows:

• A. sit and wait
  That was my tactics so far, assuming that civilized and respectful behavior will ensure to get our chips as fast as possible. This in fact might have been the reason why so far our group-buy got more chips than others, at the same time with a delivery of one batch per month our last will arrive mid 2014 - ready for re-direction to the Bitcoin museum
• B. demand full refund
  The majority would be fine with getting their invested coins back and let this chapter pass into oblivion. According to Avolon's ToS, there will be no refunds. But if they really care about Bitcoin and its community and realize how much harm they caused to so many of us, they might consider playing fair and send us the coins back. This implies that you do not want your chips any more.
• C. negotiate for compensation
  While refunding all orders might exceed Avalon's capabilities, they might prefer offering a compensation in form of free chips or free upgrades to next-gen ones. This implies you would like continue dealing with Avalon.
• D. legal action
  Leave the polite arena and sue them into ground; make an example of them and put an end to the pre-order madness in Bitcoinland. This implies you are willing to throw more good money after the bad - for a very limited expectation. Your money would feed some poor lawyers and Avalon if needed will declare bankruptcy (they said they do not control the collected funds any more).

I personally will approach Avalon with options B and C for now and consider combining forces with other group-buy organizers for D if we do not hear back within a reasonable time-frame. If you have a different opinion you'd like to share, please do so either here or via PM.

[fasmax]

I find it funny how Yifu is playing the victim in that thread. Quite amusing.

Are we positive it was Yifu?
The communication seemed out of character for Yifu.
Could some one else be using the account?
It just seemed a little off to me.
But who knows.
 

[atomicchaos]

Alright guys, pack it up, nothing to see here.

Don't let the door hit you.....

[atomicchaos]

I find it funny how Yifu is playing the victim in that thread. Quite amusing.

Are we positive it was Yifu?
The communication seemed out of character for Yifu.
Could some one else be using the account?
It just seemed a little off to me.
But who knows.
 

I think I was the first to suggest his account was hacked, but I think he's just losing his mind under the pressure.

[Silvas]

Alright guys, pack it up, nothing to see here.

Don't let the door hit you.....

Oh there's PLENTY to see here.  For instance:
How the aftermath of this is going to play out
Depending on what direction this goes, just how much more of a clusterfuck it can possibly turn into.
Keeping track of things until people have their money back.
Satisfying morbid curiosity - just like watching a train wreck... you don't wanna look but you can't turn away

[fasmax]

Where is Terrahash? They are not responding to emails, tickets, voice call (mail box still not setup).
They are obviously monitoring the forum though.

Let it be known that Terrahash has my chips today. So the two weeks clock starts now.
I need to know what size and spec of fan to buy but I can't find the info as terrahash is not responding to anything.

Looks like someone called TH's bluff.
Now we will see...

[btceic]

Where is Terrahash? They are not responding to emails, tickets, voice call (mail box still not setup).
They are obviously monitoring the forum though.

Let it be known that Terrahash has my chips today. So the two weeks clock starts now.
I need to know what size and spec of fan to buy but I can't find the info as terrahash is not responding to anything.

Looks like someone called TH's bluff.
Now we will see...

Timer removed. End time: 2013-09-13+24:00:00EDT

[btceic]

Where is Terrahash? They are not responding to emails, tickets, voice call (mail box still not setup).
They are obviously monitoring the forum though.

Let it be known that Terrahash has my chips today. So the two weeks clock starts now.
I need to know what size and spec of fan to buy but I can't find the info as terrahash is not responding to anything.

Please post proof that they have your chips so that we can have this documented appropriately.

[hchc]

Where is Terrahash? They are not responding to emails, tickets, voice call (mail box still not setup).
They are obviously monitoring the forum though.

Let it be known that Terrahash has my chips today. So the two weeks clock starts now.
I need to know what size and spec of fan to buy but I can't find the info as terrahash is not responding to anything.

Looks like someone called TH's bluff.
Now we will see...

Timer removed. End time: 2013-09-13+24:00:00EDT

hey Thanks for that I don't know if I should consider myself lucky or not. At one hand it feels like I'm the last one thru this "yifu-gate" and that hopefully difficulty would not rise as much with this mass refund, on the other there is no going back for me now and I might not make ROI with all other big guys shipping....To top it off, Terrahash might not have initiative or ability to manufacture my order anymore and I will stuck with shiny little chips with no refund.

[MinermanNC]

I'm not surprised at any of this from the avalon/yifu side of things. I felt weeks ago they would not be coming. It was obvious then something was drastically going wrong. Yifu is sending mixed signals somewhat. He says on 1 hand they are still shipping 10k a week? or something like that, then in the same breath says it would  be easier to issue refunds.
So does anyone know which it is yet?...no we dont, or at least im not sure. In any event, assuming TH will never see their chips, so whats next now for TH and its customers, that is the real question here. One would like to think TH is capable of issuing full refunds to anyone if ask to do so, and rightfully so and they should. They have not said that they wouldn't or couldn't, if the worst should ever happen, which it now seems to be. We do know that TH has said it is in contact with other board/chip manufactures, even though we haven't heard any further progress on that from from TH yet? So Its clear many will be hammering them for a refund, and Terrahash should refund in full immediately to who ever ask. Now on the other hand some may hang tight and try not to bankrupt TH or get into lenghty law suits etc....But I am hoping TH has deep enough pockets to cover refunds and any loses it may incurr, certainly most of us open a business with a lot of up front cost, but we are also, prepared to loose it. So I'm not sweating it yet, with TH not refunding under these circumstances. So I will wait to see if perhaps they have a back up game plan. And to their credit I will say someone there knows how to engineer a board. We have seen it. So Terrahash may still have some fight left, and produce or offer up something sweet soon,,,if not the klondikes. Plus, They themselves like us, should be getting a refund, if in fact yifu refunds. Thus giving TH a lot of equity just in that amount,,,so lets see if TH will offer refunds or offer up, for some to hang tight and possibly follow them on to a new board,,,at one hell of a good deal!!! and who knows it sounds like there still may be some chips still floating around out there and possibly still enroute ....TH has a lot of connections,,,maybe they will get lucky and score enough to finish out the pre orders?...who knows

[ak49er]

All in All TH already said they would at the VERY LEAST do a partial refund if it came to not receiving the chips. Time will tell, either way expect something back eventually.

I expect this relies on them getting a refund from Yifu though.  If they've spent money on cases that's likely non-refundable, as will the boards.  Components might be returnable but likely will have a restocking fee, and probably don't ammount to much in the cost.  No money will have been spent on manufacturing yet, so that's a plus.  I wouldn't be expecting much back from TH unfortunately.

[atomicchaos]

Alright guys, pack it up, nothing to see here.

Don't let the door hit you.....

I've lost more in Vegas

Boy, your psychological profile is pretty amusing, you forgot your story was that you are so big with the banks, they will refund your bank wire. You didn't lose a thing. Oh yea, wasn't I ignored? WTF is wrong with you? Seriously.

[atomicchaos]

I really got to you didn't I?

I wouldn't dream of using the bank to get a refund from Terrahash as they have done nothing wrong, you seem to forget too easily.

Ya you were ignored, not sure how that slipped, get back in your hole dog.

Yep, you got to me, many badges were earned. What's it like to be a pathological liar that can't handle people that don't see things through your skewed reality?

[MinermanNC]

TH has a lot of connections,,,maybe they will get lucky and score enough to finish out the pre orders?...who knows

First off, Break up your paragraphs (Wall-o-Text)

Secondly,

We have to figure out if Yifu IS doing refunds and not just overwhelmed trying to cope with his disaster.

Once there is a clear path there then TH can take that.

There's already talks of a Class Action suit against Avalon (I'm sure because these Group Buys have used a lot of money in useless boards/parts/cases and want to get that back as well)

You can read it in Steamboats thread.

All in All TH already said they would at the VERY LEAST do a partial refund if it came to not receiving the chips. Time will tell, either way expect something back eventually.

Hey glad you like my typing skills.... I still say there is no such thing as a partial refund (and I'm not sure thats what they meant when they wrote that post),,,it was more like "some refunds" meaning maybe not all, but those who ask,,If someone wants a refund, then thats that, they get it. I don't really care where they need to find the money, its their obligation.

[Silvas]

TH has a lot of connections,,,maybe they will get lucky and score enough to finish out the pre orders?...who knows

First off, Break up your paragraphs (Wall-o-Text)

Secondly,

We have to figure out if Yifu IS doing refunds and not just overwhelmed trying to cope with his disaster.

Once there is a clear path there then TH can take that.

There's already talks of a Class Action suit against Avalon (I'm sure because these Group Buys have used a lot of money in useless boards/parts/cases and want to get that back as well)

You can read it in Steamboats thread.

All in All TH already said they would at the VERY LEAST do a partial refund if it came to not receiving the chips. Time will tell, either way expect something back eventually.

Hey glad you like my typing skills.... I still say there is no such thing as a partial refund (and I'm not sure thats what they meant when they wrote that post),,,it was more like "some refunds" meaning maybe not all, but those who ask,,If someone wants a refund, then thats that, they get it. I don't really care where they need to find the money, its their obligation.

Not according to some around here... the customers knew the risks and chose to take them, remember?
/sarcasm

[Ytterbium]

I find it funny how Yifu is playing the victim in that thread. Quite amusing.

Are we positive it was Yifu?
The communication seemed out of character for Yifu.
Could some one else be using the account?
It just seemed a little off to me.
But who knows.
 

I think I was the first to suggest his account was hacked, but I think he's just losing his mind under the pressure.

Whoever it was just started sending out batch three refunds. So obviously the account was hacked, it couldn't possibly be Yifu  

[newguy05]

I really got to you didn't I?

I wouldn't dream of using the bank to get a refund from Terrahash as they have done nothing wrong, you seem to forget too easily.

Ya you were ignored, not sure how that slipped, get back in your hole dog.

i am convinced you work for terrahash, no schmuck is this dense after getting f***ed by the same.

if i preorder a playstation 4 and one of sony's chip supplier runs away resulting in no delivery, should i forgive sony and not demand a full refund?  avalon is scum, but that's between terrahash and them, customer did not order directly from avalon, terrahash did.

what exactly has terrahash shown so far as investment? an empty room, 1 half working board, a few plastic boxes on the floor, did i miss anything else?

common sense failed you.

[laughingbear]

you guys know there are prob a few hundred of us checking this thread all the time for INFORMATION?  please take your argument somewhere else.