Off-Topic

[atomicchaos]

Again they licensed a board from someone that stopped producing the firmware and production of the board.  When TH started they assumed majority of the work was already going to be done for them since they were licensing the board.  But BKK stopped working on the project which then made TH have to do all of the work.

BKK basically said he's done working on the board which sucks.

Ah, I see, so that's the latest excuse, eh?

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[krayzie32]

Again they licensed a board from someone that stopped producing the firmware and production of the board.  When TH started they assumed majority of the work was already going to be done for them since they were licensing the board.  But BKK stopped working on the project which then made TH have to do all of the work.

BKK basically said he's done working on the board which sucks.

Ah, I see, so that's the latest excuse, eh?

If that's what makes you feel better about yourself then sure.  You can ignore reality and facts and substitute your own all you want.

[kkooks]

Again they licensed a board from someone that stopped producing the firmware and production of the board.  When TH started they assumed majority of the work was already going to be done for them since they were licensing the board.  But BKK stopped working on the project which then made TH have to do all of the work.

BKK basically said he's done working on the board which sucks.

Ah, I see, so that's the latest excuse, eh?

If that's what makes you feel better about yourself then sure.  You can ignore reality and facts and substitute your own all you want.

before I dismiss you as delusional (which you seem to be)
Lets wait for the timer to run out.

[krayzie32]

before I dismiss you as delusional (which you seem to be)
Lets wait for the timer to run out.

Delusional?  For what?  Stating what happened in all of this mess.  Here is how this all went down:

1. BKK starts making the board and makes major headway early on
2. TH sees this and see's an opportunity to make some money so they license the board from BKK and help him with some coding
(During all of this time everyone still assumed Avalon was on time)
3. Avalon is weeks late and BKK slows work to very minimal effort
4. TH doesn't seem worry too much since Avalon doesn't even have chips and no chips are even on the horizon
5. TH must have forgotten some people got Zefir chips so they were caught off-guard
6. TH trying to push their way through as quick as they can.

Now I do fault TH for step 5 up there, they should have been fully ready when chips other than their own were being shipped but I think they figured since chips were so far out from coming they slowed down and were either hoping BKK comes back and helps or they were trying to do it on their side and not getting through it as fast as they anticipated.

Since it doesn't seem like TH is going to be getting our chips for a few more weeks  they should have more than enough time to iron out the code.   So some of this is TH's fault and waiting too long hoping the person that they paid to do their job actually did their job but if I contract out you don't assume they won't produce.

[bitcoin carpenter]

here is what I don't get.
why hasn't TH told us what they are doing in regards to returns on Gen1 chips
it is ah fine Saying we may get a refund from bitsyncom
butwhen there is a deadline we want to hear about your decisions.
this is our money that You are mismanaging
Instead of promising CH will be better in the future make it better now
or prepare to talk to a lot of lawyers

If there is no word by tonight I am changing my status to a no bullshit want 100% refund now

from a now unhappy Customer

[atomicchaos]

<blah> <Blah>

Keep holding on to that dream. It's over. Let's flashback to the good times....

As I have repeatedly said, we were and are 100% ready to go into assembly as soon as the chips arrived. We have been fully ready for more than 2 weeks now. All the parts not ordered were the parts that can be delivered in a day or two from multiple sources. How hard is to understand this basic concept?

We have already tested the version 1, and we know exactly what was causing the error rates and that has been fixed in this version. If the boards you get do not work at the promised hashrate, you can blame us then. Right now you have no right to tell us how to run our business. We acknowledge that we have been lousy on customer support (we are fixing it), but on the technical and operational side, we have been very professional and have done everything the best we could do.

The Spartans were parsimonious of patter. When they refused Athenian terms, on one occasion, the herald declared : "If we come to your city, we will raze it to the ground."
The Spartan answer was the one word: "If."
"If" is a two letter word with a huge meaning. If a bunch of gas particles did not get together to form the Sun, we wouldn't be here today.

Can we stop using "IF"?

.... IF only TH could have lived up to their promises. I may be calling it early, but I borrowed Bargraphic's investment eightball and asked it if TH would fail to meet the challenge of getting a SINGLE order sent out in the promised 2 week timeframe:

[Silvas]

before I dismiss you as delusional (which you seem to be)
Lets wait for the timer to run out.

Delusional?  For what?  Stating what happened in all of this mess.  Here is how this all went down:

1. BKK starts making the board and makes major headway early on
2. TH sees this and see's an opportunity to make some money so they license the board from BKK and help him with some coding
(During all of this time everyone still assumed Avalon was on time)
3. Avalon is weeks late and BKK slows work to very minimal effort
4. TH doesn't seem worry too much since Avalon doesn't even have chips and no chips are even on the horizon
5. TH must have forgotten some people got Zefir chips so they were caught off-guard
6. TH trying to push their way through as quick as they can.

Now I do fault TH for step 5 up there, they should have been fully ready when chips other than their own were being shipped but I think they figured since chips were so far out from coming they slowed down and were either hoping BKK comes back and helps or they were trying to do it on their side and not getting through it as fast as they anticipated.

Since it doesn't seem like TH is going to be getting our chips for a few more weeks   they should have more than enough time to iron out the code.   So some of this is TH's fault and waiting too long hoping the person that they paid to do their job actually did their job but if I contract out you don't assume they won't produce.

Assumption is the mother of all fuckups.

TH 'started a business' without the necessary capital to fund it; took a huge order from cloudhashing and apparently did not get a contract in place specifying that they were allowed to use those pre-order funds to buy the chips and cloudhashing absolutely could not cancel unless Bitsyncom failed to deliver, and if that happened they would be required to wait until TH got their money back from Bitsyncom; when cloudhashing cancelled, TH opened up pre-orders to get cash flow to be able to refund cloudhashing.
That was guessed in this thread, and confirmed in this thread by TH.
When they announced pre-orders, they claimed it was because of demand from the community to take pre-orders; it was not until AFTER they took orders and people's money that they admitted they needed that money to refund a previous customer.  In short, they knowingly willfully and purposely mislead EACH AND EVERY single customer who pre-ordered from them.

They assumed chips would be on time
They assumed nothing would go wrong with the open source board and firmware development
They banked on these assumptions and bought components and chips, spending probably a goddamn good portion of what funds they had left, plus spent money on an office and utilities and who knows what other business costs - ALL of that before they could even reasonably guarantee that they would be able to fulfill the commitments they had undertaken and paid for by the money they were spending.  They took a LOT of risk with everyone ELSE'S money.  You risk investors' money, you DO NOT risk customers' money.  You can argue that as long as they refund us, they didn't risk our money; except that in order to refund us, they have to use some other customer's money.  What happens if they have to refund those later customers as well?

They committed in this thread to telling people where they stood in line for orders, and allowing them to make the choice of cancelling or keeping their orders.  They failed to follow through with that commitment.
They have severely lacked in even the most basic communication

Now they've come along and admitted they're legally liable for refunds, but insist that customers who want them have to wait 3 months.  Conveniently, they're opening up 'reservations' for their hosting and considering next gen chip products.  You can get your reservation for as little as 750 dollars (25% of 3000, the amount needed to buy the smallest block of hashing power they're selling).
Gee, you think maybe they're using the next batch of customers' money to refund those of us in line now waiting for refunds?  

First order went bad - get more orders to refund it and hope nothing goes wrong with plan b.  Plan b goes bad - get more orders and hope nothing goes wrong with plan c.  What the hell happens if something falls through with plan c?
Do you see the problem here?

They've certainly made more fuckups than just one or 2 little things.  Anyone who can't or won't admit that is plain out being dishonest, either to everyone else or to themselves.
Ask ANY successful businessperson, corporation, business professor, consultant, advisor, or even student and they'll tell you TH has made several of the most major fuckups possible when it comes to running a business.  I still don't attribute it to malice, but abject fucking stupidity and arrogance.
end. of. story.

Now the odds are that sooner or later one of their plans won't fail and will work out.  It's just a matter of whether they can keep kicking the can down the road, getting orders to refund and placate earlier customers, and holding people at bay long enough for that to happen.
Sadly, I seriously doubt they're learning any lessons from any of this; rather, if they do manage to keep it going long enough to work out, instead of realizing how lucky they got and learning not to do this shit again I have a feeling they're going to take it as vindication that they were right.

[knightlife999]

Hi guys. On Wednesday 9/11, Zefir and Sebastianju posted that they received emails from Bitsyncom that their remaining chip batches would be shipped in 12 hours: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269950.msg3134995#msg3134995

Zefir's last batches were ordered in late April, and he obtained refunds for 2 of them. Sebastianju has a similar situation. That means that Terrahash should be receiving their chips VERY soon (should be next in line along with Steamboat).

I spoke with Amir on Thursday and he said that they were contacting Steamboat to work out the final issues with the IC2 firmware problem. Steamboat appears to have worked out some of the kinks on his end. Amir has stated on BKK's thread, other than issues with the IC2 daisy chain, their boards are hashing properly. BKK (creator of the k16) has been MIA for weeks and looks to have abandoned the DIY project that he started. That has left all of the DIY companies to scramble to work out firmware issues that BKK was being paid to take care of. I advised Amir that Bitsyncom shouldn't be trusted and he said that they are looking into all reasonable avenues to move forward. As I've said before, I visually confirmed that TH had 40k chips on order with Bitsyncom. 20k ordered in May, and 20k ordered in June. Amir said that they are working long hours to resolve the present situation, and when it is finished, they will move on to the hosted miner offer. It was a brief and positive conversation. He said that they have not yet received an email from Bitsyncom regarding the chips shipping, but expects to get one any day now. That should happen soon, since all late April orders appear to have been shipped as of yesterday.

I can't tell anyone what to do in regard to their Avalon based purchases. I, for one, do not plan on ever giving Yifu Guo or Bitsyncom any of my money. Some of the board members who speak chinese have stated that other members of Bitsyncom told chinese buyers that they were not going to ship the bulk of their chip orders until September to allow for earlier Avalon buyers to get ROI. I think it is more likely that Bitsyncom held off shipping orders so that they could mine as much Bitcoin as possible to pay for their Gen2 chip and line their pockets (or they took the early batches of chips, built miners, mined enough coin to create the next chip and be able to refund angry customers). Some people thought those statements were rumors, but it looks to be true. Bitsyncom was dishonest with the DIY community. Even if they truly delayed shipment for early buyers, ROI is no justification to lie to bulk chip buyers about delivery times. Unfortunately, the DIY community as a whole has been harmed by Yifu and his friends.

Terrahash, Steamboat, and the other DIY companies have been left in a bad situation and each has been doing everything they can to mitigate the problems. Personally, I'm greatly displeased with how everything has turned out. I don't envy them, but I hope everything works out soon and we all get what we paid for.

I am waiting for my boards from TH and I hope they arrive soon.

[hchc]

knightlife, since you are kinda the spokeperson for TH (seems like only you have communication channel with them), can you help me ask are they going to ship my order on time? I think I'm the only active order they are working on and even that they decided not to communicate with me and I'm already being very nice Thanks.

[knightlife999]

knightlife, since you are kinda the spokeperson for TH (seems like only you have communication channel with them), can you help me ask are they going to ship my order on time? I think I'm the only active order they are working on and even that they decided not to communicate with me and I'm already being very nice Thanks.

Hi hchc. I'm not their spokeperson (I know you weren't serious, but I want to make this clear). I just have a face to face relationship due to stopping by there on a couple of occasions. I'll ask about your order the next time I speak with Amir. Yesterday was the first time I have spoken with him since my visit to the office when I obtained proof of the chip orders. I think we may see movement on all of our orders in the coming week (2 at the latest).

[zurg]

Yay,  I can't wait for my negative ROI on this.
Why haven't they canceled at leat half the order?

Will add more after I get kids to bed...

[MinermanNC]

<blah> <Blah>

Keep holding on to that dream. It's over. Let's flashback to the good times....

As I have repeatedly said, we were and are 100% ready to go into assembly as soon as the chips arrived. We have been fully ready for more than 2 weeks now. All the parts not ordered were the parts that can be delivered in a day or two from multiple sources. How hard is to understand this basic concept?

We have already tested the version 1, and we know exactly what was causing the error rates and that has been fixed in this version. If the boards you get do not work at the promised hashrate, you can blame us then. Right now you have no right to tell us how to run our business. We acknowledge that we have been lousy on customer support (we are fixing it), but on the technical and operational side, we have been very professional and have done everything the best we could do.

The Spartans were parsimonious of patter. When they refused Athenian terms, on one occasion, the herald declared : "If we come to your city, we will raze it to the ground."
The Spartan answer was the one word: "If."
"If" is a two letter word with a huge meaning. If a bunch of gas particles did not get together to form the Sun, we wouldn't be here today.

Can we stop using "IF"?

.... IF only TH could have lived up to their promises. I may be calling it early, but I borrowed Bargraphic's investment eightball and asked it if TH would fail to meet the challenge of getting a SINGLE order sent out in the promised 2 week timeframe:

HAH I love it ....oh yes, those were indeed the good ol days!  Great post Atomic 

[gbx]

Hi guys. On Wednesday 9/11, Zefir and Sebastianju posted that they received emails from Bitsyncom that their remaining chip batches would be shipped in 12 hours: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269950.msg3134995#msg3134995

Zefir's last batches were ordered in late April, and he obtained refunds for 2 of them. Sebastianju has a similar situation. That means that Terrahash should be receiving their chips VERY soon (should be next in line along with Steamboat).

I spoke with Amir on Thursday and he said that they were contacting Steamboat to work out the final issues with the IC2 firmware problem. Steamboat appears to have worked out some of the kinks on his end. Amir has stated on BKK's thread, other than issues with the IC2 daisy chain, their boards are hashing properly. BKK (creator of the k16) has been MIA for weeks and looks to have abandoned the DIY project that he started. That has left all of the DIY companies to scramble to work out firmware issues that BKK was being paid to take care of. I advised Amir that Bitsyncom shouldn't be trusted and he said that they are looking into all reasonable avenues to move forward. As I've said before, I visually confirmed that TH had 40k chips on order with Bitsyncom. 20k ordered in May, and 20k ordered in June. Amir said that they are working long hours to resolve the present situation, and when it is finished, they will move on to the hosted miner offer. It was a brief and positive conversation. He said that they have not yet received an email from Bitsyncom regarding the chips shipping, but expects to get one any day now. That should happen soon, since all late April orders appear to have been shipped as of yesterday.

I can't tell anyone what to do in regard to their Avalon based purchases. I, for one, do not plan on ever giving Yifu Guo or Bitsyncom any of my money. Some of the board members who speak chinese have stated that other members of Bitsyncom told chinese buyers that they were not going to ship the bulk of their chip orders until September to allow for earlier Avalon buyers to get ROI. I think it is more likely that Bitsyncom held off shipping orders so that they could mine as much Bitcoin as possible to pay for their Gen2 chip and line their pockets (or they took the early batches of chips, built miners, mined enough coin to create the next chip and be able to refund angry customers). Some people thought those statements were rumors, but it looks to be true. Bitsyncom was dishonest with the DIY community. Even if they truly delayed shipment for early buyers, ROI is no justification to lie to bulk chip buyers about delivery times. Unfortunately, the DIY community as a whole has been harmed by Yifu and his friends.

Terrahash, Steamboat, and the other DIY companies have been left in a bad situation and each has been doing everything they can to mitigate the problems. Personally, I'm greatly displeased with how everything has turned out. I don't envy them, but I hope everything works out soon and we all get what we paid for.

I am waiting for my boards from TH and I hope they arrive soon.

Thanks for the update KnightLife999 - it's refreshing to see your post after wading through all the garbage in this thread.

Yeah, it's clear something underhanded has gone on with Yifu... from the dusty miners they shipped to this delay on the chips.  I think they took the delay pain tolerance from the BFL preorders into their staged delay on this.  At any rate...  I pray that no one ever preorders from Yifu again.  Ofcourse they're bigger than that now... right?  with either VC or premined coins.

Anyway, thanks for the update.  I've already written off my purchase.  It's not going to net much in the way of coins... but I still want my f'n product.

[atomicchaos]

I think we may see movement on all of our orders in the coming week (2 at the latest).

Really? Aren't your cop senses tingling? I suppose you aren't the slightest concerned that they can't produce a single order in their two week time period, but believe they'll be able to turn around the entire chip shipment in that timeframe. Come on.

[mrthundercleese]

I think we may see movement on all of our orders in the coming week (2 at the latest).

Really? Aren't your cop senses tingling? I suppose you aren't the slightest concerned that they can't produce a single order in their two week time period, but believe they'll be able to turn around the entire chip shipment in that timeframe. Come on.

You are misinterpreting what he wrote. Movement doesn't equate to entire chip shipment turnaround.

[bitcoin carpenter]

Yay,  I can't wait for my negative ROI on this.
Why haven't they canceled at leat half the order?

Will add more after I get kids to bed...

+1

[knightlife999]

I think we may see movement on all of our orders in the coming week (2 at the latest).

Really? Aren't your cop senses tingling? I suppose you aren't the slightest concerned that they can't produce a single order in their two week time period, but believe they'll be able to turn around the entire chip shipment in that timeframe. Come on.

You are misinterpreting what he wrote. Movement doesn't equate to entire chip shipment turnaround.

I think it's clear that I am concerned.

I'm clearly not happy with what we are going through. I think we will see movement in the next 2 weeks (just my own feelings on this). I don't know if every order will be filled, but I think we will see movement. I think that Th is doing everything they can to finalize the k16 firmware on their own. It's clear that BKK left the k16 DIY community high and dry. It is what it is.

I'm very disappointed that the project has come to this point. I think Bitsyncom and BFL allowed greed to cloud their judgement and everyone else gets to pay the price. I have friends in the FBI and SEC looking into Yifu Guo and Bitsyncom. Bitsyncom has an address in the US, so that works nicely. He appears to be in damage control mode, but it may not help him.

On another note, I am looking forward to receiving my KNC miners.
 
I hope my K16s come along soon. I will set them up in my server case, get it running, and sell it.

[MinermanNC]

In regards to BKK, I dont believe he ever promised a k 64 board, he was developing a k16 only. Other developers like TH and so on, brought into the mix the k64 by chaining using i2c. With that said BKK did deliver on the k16 design. And he did refund anyone who he had finacial commitments to when the chips fell through. Anyone that still uses his board design for k16 in the future will still owe him licensing whether it be gen 1 or gen 2 chips that go in the k16. BKK hasn't deserted his post as some have suggested in here. He has given the required design for the working  k16. So leave him out of the mix where k64 and TH are concerned.

EDIT: If TH can't get the k64 to chain,,,they can always stick with the working k16 and ship that asap (4 per k64 ordered) Im sure no one would complain.

[bitcoin carpenter]

bla bla bla

with so much on the line i cant believe there was no update today

and you think they are doing everything they can to mitigate damage?

all i wanted to know was how far they got with the k16's, whether they have cancelled an order, and what decisions they have made regarding refunds

......

crappy business sense IMHO
ive been running a contracting business for ten years and i would have been stocking shelves if i had behaved this way

[zurg]

Ok, here is what I was going to say.

TH should have looked at the people who cancelled order and pulled their $ out, that $ is already gone.
Then they should have mailed EACH of existing buyers and asked if (1 time only!) whether they want to still get the Yifooked product or (since we already know they aren't giving anything back) do they want to convert the $ to the new hosting thing.
The reason "I think" they should have done this is they are paying full price for the chips, their margin was what like 20-30% ? on the whole thing. Well, who the heck is going to buy a 18Gh board for $900 now? So as you can see they'd have to drop the price to attract buyers at that point the profit would be negligible to where why even take the risk and based on customer survey actually be able to cancel however many batches that wouldn't be needed. Heck they could loose even more $ then they paid for the chips if nobody will want to buy canceled preorders etc...

but then again TH comes here and says sorry we know we suck at CS, we'll get better...  then the same thing a month later..  and no changes.