[DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated

[markm]

You missed the (*) I added regarding my usage of the word "you".

Maybe Devcoin Venture Capital would be a more-great initial venture/project?

I will take a look at Devcorp and General Financial Corp to see if maybe either of those could actually serve in that role.

-MarkM-

[sidhujag]

You missed the (*) I added regarding my usage of the word "you".

Maybe Devcoin Venture Capital would be a more-great initial venture/project?

I will take a look at Devcorp and General Financial Corp to see if maybe either of those could actually serve in that role.

-MarkM-

Why not use what we already have? You want people to fund coins initially, for how long? Did devtome do the same thing? Fund people for writing great material to drive up ad revenue until the target is reached?

No, so why would this be any different?

[novacadian]

Re: Auction and other businesses

If you want to get some coins together than hold a raffle. Put up a shadow site that sells tickets. Try to keep it within the community as best can to keep New York State off your back. You can get a site for $100/month in the caribbean islands that will put you under their gambling license umbrella. As long as you do not know the purchase is coming from the USA because of a credit card you are not subject to their law. Got that from a high priced lawyer for another gambling project. DVC wallets would have no such trace.

No outlay of coins if you make it a 50:50 raffle. 50% for the winner and 50% for the house.

No risk, no outlay. Simple. Why over complicate things and distract from the mandate of this project?

If that works how about office pools on football games?

That code should be kicking round my backups somewhere if a bounty is put out for it.

Parents buy into such raffles all the time to support their children's interests. Schools do it. Churches do it. Asking money from their communities to fund said communities. Why not expect the same from this community?

There are people claiming ownership of millions of DVC. Why should we be looking outside of the community to raise funds?

- Nova

[sidhujag]

I think the business model is indeed in question.

What will it take to convince people to use our actions instead of famous ones, ones that have lots more items up for sale at all times, ones that do not require muscking about with cryptocoins even maybe. Already people with bitcoins can supposedly use a widget in their browser that lets them buy anything at any normal (or major?) website, with the website only seeing the fiat it wants and the bitcoin user actually paying the magic card people (who make the browser plugin) in bitcoins. Cannot such services work on auction sites as well as retailing sites? If so, why not just use such a service and go to the real quibids or whatever and use your cryptocoins there?

Etc.

-MarkM-

Exactly,

  What is stopping Quibids from using your coins at somepoint and having the user base and auctions already running compltely undermining your site. Even if they don't use coinbase and get the cash then go to quibids instead. it is a lot of work, and research that has to be done to make a site that can compete with quibids or the other one that does similar auctions and the advertising and what not to get seen and the acceptance of crypto. I don't think this is feasible for one person to take on (Even a small group of people unless they are in it heart and soul and care not about the chance of failure and no profit just to build it because they can like the open source community does. That is why I joined, way back. Because I could do it, why not.)  

Hey if quibids accepts devcoins sweet, then that negates the need for such a site, I would call that a win.

[sidhujag]

Re: Auction and other businesses

If you want to get some coins together than hold a raffle. Put up a shadow site that sells tickets. Try to keep it within the community as best can to keep New York State off your back. You can get a site for $100/month in the caribbean islands that will put you under their gambling license umbrella. As long as you do not know the purchase is coming from the USA because of a credit card you are not subject to their law. Got that from a high priced lawyer for another gambling project. DVC wallets would have no such trace.

No outlay of coins if you make it a 50:50 raffle. 50% for the winner and 50% for the house.

No risk, no outlay. Simple. Why over complicate things and distract from the mandate of this project?

If that works how about office pools on football games?

That code should be kicking round my backups somewhere if a bounty is put out for it.

Parents buy into such raffles all the time to support their children's interests. Schools do it. Churches do it. Asking money from their communities to fund said communities. Why not expect the same from this community?

There are people claiming ownership of millions of DVC. Why should we be looking outside of the community to raise funds?

- Nova

If you can get some coins together using that approach I would think thats just another business, and a profitable one at that. Just another way to spend your devcoins. I think all these things are great things we are discussing.

[Bittzy78]

Seems awfully strange that when a round ends and payments begin that there are large dumps every time. Maybe not you but in general. There were not really many bounties before so we ruled out developers as noone even bothered developing when you can write yourself a share per hour and in a week have yourself more shares than a months worth of developement and testing.

I don't want to get in an argument about it right now as I am not thinking exactly straight. But, from what i have seen of the bounties here with the "months worth of work and testing" for things isn't quite there. The main thing I have seen for development is lets get an idea and throw code at it without thinking about it. I am not saying that the writing is of par either, there are a LOT of article I wouldn't have given 1/5th a share to that got 10, but the coding isn't on par either with the bounties that have been given out that i have seen. I am sure there are a few that have been worth it, just like some of the writing. Just as an example the way the auction bounty has been discussed (and now dropped it seems) was handled. Not interested in working on it at all, and do not think it would be worth the proposed bounty were it to come to light in the current form.

But bounties are one-offs unless you think the mistakes are being repeated, then bring it up to the bounty admin and we should review how much a bounty should be worth. But at the same time we shoudl review how much each word is worth with bounties in mind as well?

I think the auction bounty of 50 shares is fine, its probably more alot more if we have to create it from scratch, I think 50 is good for starting from a template adding coin payments, setting up initial share offerings etc, all the ad banners and marketing. Its not just 1 person unless noone wants to do it. The benefits also outweigh the bounty as you have to think long term that if the business ends up being profitable that it will help anyone who holds the coins. Likewise with any business that we can come up with that would be funded via shares in some form or another.

It should take very little time to install an off the shelf auction system.

After that, maybe put four people on one share a round as admins for it, ten hours per month each, and let them gradually modify it fancy it up etc toward doing anything we want/need it to do that, off the shelf, it doesn't already do.

If that seems to be making progress but not fast enough, consider adding some more one share a round admins to it, to increase the number of hours a month being put into it.

-MarkM-

EDIT: It might even be that installing an off the shelf auction system is done simply by clicking one button in the cpanel or whatever panel the hosting company provides to the website admin. So maybe someone who already admins one of our domains and uses cpanel or other similar type of panel can click on each auction site the panel offers then we can all look and see if any of them have anything useful and if not which is closest to being able to be modified/forked to produce what we want?

I didnt know that, cool... I was actually looking at one that seems to be professional and better than the others I looked at... its $899 on ebay original price of $1200: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/171047705105?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

There are others like: http://itechscripts.com/quibids_clone.html which is $240 + $160 for source and $70 for SEO package. I think the first one has some better featurs, but the second one would do the job as well.

THe first one (if we plan to allow fiat) would have ability to set tax codes up or just simply enable it and the current tax rates would be applied to where you live... and the second one allows you to simply say hey, your in USA? Sucks to be you, you cant register.

An important thing to remember is that I suggested a penny auction, not just a normal auction. These style of quibids style auction sites generate insane profit and are easily organized since the company is the only one who is doing the selling. What we want to leverage is the share system so that we can buy things and put them up for sale and generate profit on the go. Report these profits monthly, and spend the profit either to buy up the exchange rate or on another resource like maybe funding bounties or something.

By leveraging the share system we actually seperate ourselves from a traditional business so you can answer the question, "Why dont I just start this business my self without the help of Devcoin?", well devcoin is funding it so unless you have a continous funding stream good luck, with Devcoin we have it and so we use it to try to bring in a profit.

Im not sure what the right number is, but we need for it to grow as demand increases. Either the price rises of devcoin to allow for this or the number of shares are increased and sold at market to buy the things needed to sell. Anyways I'll try to start a writeup.

This is all very interesting

Are you talking about incorporating Devtome so that income can be reported? It would be difficult to do it otherwise.

[markm]

I think the way that crypto coins currently work getting them is like playing World of Warcraft or whatever, it is all just theoretical points that might or might not actually end up being sold for something real.

So your earnings as a Devtome author aren't really earnings at all, they are just like Dragon Kill Points in an RPG, the Devtome uses them to measure the relative contributions of the team.

Your earnings however as a seller of devcoins for fiat on an exchange are earnings, as are your barter earnings if you barter devcoins for something real of real value such as a cup of coffee or a meal or rent or whatever.

I am not licensed to practice law on this planet though so check with your own local licensed practitioners.

-MarkM-

[sidhujag]

Seems awfully strange that when a round ends and payments begin that there are large dumps every time. Maybe not you but in general. There were not really many bounties before so we ruled out developers as noone even bothered developing when you can write yourself a share per hour and in a week have yourself more shares than a months worth of developement and testing.

I don't want to get in an argument about it right now as I am not thinking exactly straight. But, from what i have seen of the bounties here with the "months worth of work and testing" for things isn't quite there. The main thing I have seen for development is lets get an idea and throw code at it without thinking about it. I am not saying that the writing is of par either, there are a LOT of article I wouldn't have given 1/5th a share to that got 10, but the coding isn't on par either with the bounties that have been given out that i have seen. I am sure there are a few that have been worth it, just like some of the writing. Just as an example the way the auction bounty has been discussed (and now dropped it seems) was handled. Not interested in working on it at all, and do not think it would be worth the proposed bounty were it to come to light in the current form.

But bounties are one-offs unless you think the mistakes are being repeated, then bring it up to the bounty admin and we should review how much a bounty should be worth. But at the same time we shoudl review how much each word is worth with bounties in mind as well?

I think the auction bounty of 50 shares is fine, its probably more alot more if we have to create it from scratch, I think 50 is good for starting from a template adding coin payments, setting up initial share offerings etc, all the ad banners and marketing. Its not just 1 person unless noone wants to do it. The benefits also outweigh the bounty as you have to think long term that if the business ends up being profitable that it will help anyone who holds the coins. Likewise with any business that we can come up with that would be funded via shares in some form or another.

It should take very little time to install an off the shelf auction system.

After that, maybe put four people on one share a round as admins for it, ten hours per month each, and let them gradually modify it fancy it up etc toward doing anything we want/need it to do that, off the shelf, it doesn't already do.

If that seems to be making progress but not fast enough, consider adding some more one share a round admins to it, to increase the number of hours a month being put into it.

-MarkM-

EDIT: It might even be that installing an off the shelf auction system is done simply by clicking one button in the cpanel or whatever panel the hosting company provides to the website admin. So maybe someone who already admins one of our domains and uses cpanel or other similar type of panel can click on each auction site the panel offers then we can all look and see if any of them have anything useful and if not which is closest to being able to be modified/forked to produce what we want?

I didnt know that, cool... I was actually looking at one that seems to be professional and better than the others I looked at... its $899 on ebay original price of $1200: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/171047705105?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

There are others like: http://itechscripts.com/quibids_clone.html which is $240 + $160 for source and $70 for SEO package. I think the first one has some better featurs, but the second one would do the job as well.

THe first one (if we plan to allow fiat) would have ability to set tax codes up or just simply enable it and the current tax rates would be applied to where you live... and the second one allows you to simply say hey, your in USA? Sucks to be you, you cant register.

An important thing to remember is that I suggested a penny auction, not just a normal auction. These style of quibids style auction sites generate insane profit and are easily organized since the company is the only one who is doing the selling. What we want to leverage is the share system so that we can buy things and put them up for sale and generate profit on the go. Report these profits monthly, and spend the profit either to buy up the exchange rate or on another resource like maybe funding bounties or something.

By leveraging the share system we actually seperate ourselves from a traditional business so you can answer the question, "Why dont I just start this business my self without the help of Devcoin?", well devcoin is funding it so unless you have a continous funding stream good luck, with Devcoin we have it and so we use it to try to bring in a profit.

Im not sure what the right number is, but we need for it to grow as demand increases. Either the price rises of devcoin to allow for this or the number of shares are increased and sold at market to buy the things needed to sell. Anyways I'll try to start a writeup.

This is all very interesting

Are you talking about incorporating Devtome so that income can be reported? It would be difficult to do it otherwise.

The auction templates have reporting features for what was sold and for how much... we also would know how many coins we used to purchase the item for ( an admin whos buys it tracks that ) So you would be able to derive profits from there..

If we stay away from fiat then I dont think we would need to incorporate anything.. However if we do then yea we would have to get all the legal things right and prove how much we make for tax.

[Bittzy78]

I think the way that crypto coins currently work getting them is like playing World of Warcraft or whatever, it is all just theoretical points that might or might not actually end up being sold for something real.

So your earnings as a Devtome author aren't really earnings at all, they are just like Dragon Kill Points in an RPG, the Devtome uses them to measure the relative contributions of the team.

Your earnings however as a seller of devcoins for fiat on an exchange are earnings, as are your barter earnings if you barter devcoins for something real of real value such as a cup of coffee or a meal or rent or whatever.

I am not licensed to practice law on this planet though so check with your own local licensed practitioners.

-MarkM-

Yeah, that is my take on the whole matter. How would one even figure out a price on your holdings of Devcoins if the price is different on each exchange? Not to mention they could just disappear into thin air almost overnight.

I am only going to report my earnings that I convert to Bitcoin and cashout to my bank through Coinbase.

[markm]

Are any facts available re those commercial auction-scripts regarding actual websites using them, the Alexa ratings, visitors, earnings per visitor average, percentage of conversion of visitors to paying customers, retention rate and/or lifetime profits per customer, cost of aquisition per customer, actual sites we can go watch and see how well they are thriving, or anything at all along those lines?

Or are they just some unknown person selling a script with no sign anywhere that the scripts even work let alone are earning profits for those who have deployed them?

-MarkM-

[sidhujag]

I think the way that crypto coins currently work getting them is like playing World of Warcraft or whatever, it is all just theoretical points that might or might not actually end up being sold for something real.

So your earnings as a Devtome author aren't really earnings at all, they are just like Dragon Kill Points in an RPG, the Devtome uses them to measure the relative contributions of the team.

Your earnings however as a seller of devcoins for fiat on an exchange are earnings, as are your barter earnings if you barter devcoins for something real of real value such as a cup of coffee or a meal or rent or whatever.

I am not licensed to practice law on this planet though so check with your own local licensed practitioners.

-MarkM-

Yeah, that is my take on the whole matter. How would one even figure out a price on your holdings of Devcoins if the price is different on each exchange? Not to mention they could just disappear into thin air almost overnight.

I am only going to report my earnings that I convert to Bitcoin and cashout to my bank through Coinbase.

Remember fiat is the only thing taxed not crypto. If you sell back to crypto your taxed. Unless they make bitcoin legal tender and you can pay tax with it then depends where you live i think in Uk some placed wanted to do this.

[sidhujag]

Are any facts available re those commercial auction-scripts regarding actual websites using them, the Alexa ratings, visitors, earnings per visitor average, percentage of conversion of visitors to paying customers, retention rate and/or lifetime profits per customer, cost of aquisition per customer, actual sites we can go watch and see how well they are thriving, or anything at all along those lines?

Or are they just some unknown person selling a script with no sign anywhere that the scripts even work let alone are earning profits for those who have deployed them?

-MarkM-

Dont know I will ask for that and report back. There are demos you can see them in action but yea a demo is just a demo.

[Bittzy78]

I think the way that crypto coins currently work getting them is like playing World of Warcraft or whatever, it is all just theoretical points that might or might not actually end up being sold for something real.

So your earnings as a Devtome author aren't really earnings at all, they are just like Dragon Kill Points in an RPG, the Devtome uses them to measure the relative contributions of the team.

Your earnings however as a seller of devcoins for fiat on an exchange are earnings, as are your barter earnings if you barter devcoins for something real of real value such as a cup of coffee or a meal or rent or whatever.

I am not licensed to practice law on this planet though so check with your own local licensed practitioners.

-MarkM-

Yeah, that is my take on the whole matter. How would one even figure out a price on your holdings of Devcoins if the price is different on each exchange? Not to mention they could just disappear into thin air almost overnight.

I am only going to report my earnings that I convert to Bitcoin and cashout to my bank through Coinbase.

Remember fiat is the only thing taxed not crypto. If you sell back to crypto your taxed. Unless they make bitcoin legal tender and you can pay tax with it then depends where you live i think in Uk some placed wanted to do this.

I guess in that way it would be pretty similar to owning stock in an individual company. It doesn't matter if the shares go up 10000% during a 4 month period. You only have to pay tax on them when you cash them out for actual cash in your trading account or bank.

If they require crypto in crypto form to be reported as earnings then they have to allow you to report your crypto trading losses... I simply don't see that happening.

[novacadian]

If we stay away from fiat then I dont think we would need to incorporate anything.. However if we do then yea we would have to get all the legal things right and prove how much we make for tax.

In my country at least, if something is traded for something else then a tax is expected. Yeah, they don't even want barter without a piece of the action. You may as well go all the way getting into granny gambling in my opinion. i.e. raffles, pools, etc.

- Nova

[markm]

At one point some politician did try to say virtual things are like barter and found-treasure, so that if a magic sword sells on e-bay for $5 and your world of warcraft character finds such a sword that is $5 of income to be taxed.

It didn't fly though.

What about when you barter an apple share for an IBM share on an exchange site via the intermediary of the dollars or whatever that are used to measure both stocks, that is, sell an apple share and buy an IBM one?

Or you barter a magic sword for a magic shield? Again possibly with the mediation of a MUD-currency so you sell the sword in the shop for MUD gold and buy a shield with that MUD gold?

-MarkM-

[sidhujag]

Are any facts available re those commercial auction-scripts regarding actual websites using them, the Alexa ratings, visitors, earnings per visitor average, percentage of conversion of visitors to paying customers, retention rate and/or lifetime profits per customer, cost of aquisition per customer, actual sites we can go watch and see how well they are thriving, or anything at all along those lines?

Or are they just some unknown person selling a script with no sign anywhere that the scripts even work let alone are earning profits for those who have deployed them?

-MarkM-

So I called this guy http://www.ebay.ca/itm/171047705105?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649 ... seems to be the tech guy who worked on it at 1 (989) 303-1012  .. anyways he claims that this is the actual software used on quibids.com and dealdash.com and it is not a clone.  I msged him about the metrics and he will get back to me but thats what I got from what I talked to him. He said there is about a 40% conversion rate between a visitor and a customer.

[markm]

I wonder if Quibids would confirm who they got their software from?

Seems unlikely somehow thus seems easy claim to make...

-MarkM-

[sidhujag]

If we stay away from fiat then I dont think we would need to incorporate anything.. However if we do then yea we would have to get all the legal things right and prove how much we make for tax.

In my country at least, if something is traded for something else then a tax is expected. Yeah, they don't even want barter without a piece of the action. You may as well go all the way getting into granny gambling in my opinion. i.e. raffles, pools, etc.

- Nova

So all these bitcoin sites or anything sold for bitcoins are also susceptible to tax? We wouldnt be a registered business so how is tax applicable? Just because we allow barter? hmmm....

[sidhujag]

I wonder if Quibids would confirm who they got their software from?

Seems unlikely somehow thus seems easy claim to make...

-MarkM-

Yea I know... first he said he doesnt give his customers websites out... I asked why he said company policy... and then goes ahead and tells me just look at quibids for an actual representation, its their software.

Sent an email to quibids asking about it anyhow.

[novacadian]

What about when you barter an apple share for an IBM share on an exchange site via the intermediary of the dollars or whatever that are used to measure both stocks, that is, sell an apple share and buy an IBM one?

It is all a matter when they get round to you. When consulting the lawyer about a football pool site she said that it would likely fly for a while yet once they got porn somewhat under control they would turn on gambling. This was back in the 90's and she was spot on.

If a raffle/pool is kept among the community it is not likely to get much attention. If payments back and forth are done through crypto wallets it will just be too hard to nail down. My guess is that it would not be worth the person power to try to litigate. In your area, MarkM, you can get one hour of free consulting from a lawyer as a free service. It is in the yellow pages, or was.

- Nova