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Author Topic: [DVC]DevCoin - Official Thread - Moderated  (Read 953974 times)
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sidhujag
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January 24, 2014, 06:44:43 PM
 #4541

It is too bad that MPOE is not free open source, as options do sound like just what we need.

I ran around enquiring about the possibility of generic options code a long log time ago, I wanted something where you basically tell it here are the two items of a pair, I want to enable options on that pair.

No luck though.

I also tried working through a bunch of concepts using "long coins" and "short coins" but the big probem with een the best of those ideas was that people are nowadays spiled by options that give you massive leverage so the idea of having to lock up collateral equal to the maximum amount you could lose was a major turn-off for people.

But realistically, look at Lex Cryptographia even, you do need surety bonds aka collateral of some kind if you are not going to depend on the ability to send in the marines or the sheriff or whatever.

MPOE's method of doing options is a kind of zero sum system in which MPOE itself cannot possibly lose, and all potential loses are secured/covered by third party investors who in effect loan capital to the system or to the option writers or something.

It seems a shame to have to re-write the wheel from scratch over and over and over again which is why I tend to prefer to just get it over with by doing free open source in the first place. There should be code for all those kinds of things off the shelf as free open source so that any currency can easily equip itself with such important tools of finance.

-MarkM-


Hedging the writer's risk is exactly what I'm working on atm. Here's a part of my writing application I sent to Fuzzybear yesterday.

-----

One of my crypto related articles I’m working on atm is on hedging the devtome writers risk. Since I’ve started thinking about the prospect of getting paid in devcoins I started brainstorming about the possibility of hedging some of the risk due to the large fluctuations in the writers compensation month to month. As you’re aware, pay can wary from 10 to 200 usd per share. One of my ideas is to partially hedge this exposure by shorting bitcoins. Here’s the thinking behind it. Because to my knowledge, there is no way to short devcoin outright, by using btc as a proxy and shorting it instead you stand to gain if cryptocurrencies decline in value.

From the data I’ve seen so far (could only find data since June 2013) devcoin’s price in usd tends to follow bitcoin/litecoin’s rise or fall. In the 8 months I have data for, DVC traded within a 30% band against bitcoin/litecoin. In other words, as bitcoin/litecoin price in USD skyrocketed in 2013, devcoin followed suit and only lagged/outperformed by 30%. So basically by shorting btc ( or even ltc) you could in theory cover some of the risk associated with the fluctuating writers pay. If devcoin gains in value, you would get paid more for your writing. If it falls, it will likely be in tandem with the fall of bitcoin and you will recover some of the losses with your bitcoin short hedge. I’m still trying to find more data on dvc and see how it performed versus bitcoin before June 2013.

-------

Still trying to find more data on DVC/BTC going prior to June of last year. If It is something that I can import in MT4 it would be even better. If this turns out to be a somewhat viable plan to partially hedge the risk I plan to write an article on this for devtome. I think bitcoin options would be an even better option but I'm not sure that the broker's edge on these makes it worthwhile as a hedging mechanism. With a short btc option you win if bitcoin prices fall but you won't get ''violated'' if btc prices rise by tenfold like in November.

Another bonus of a short bitcoin position or option is that the devcoin price won't be affected at all.

It's an interesting discussion. Smiley

So a synthetic hedge via correlation.. What happens if the band is broken and difference is greater than 30%?

I believe the technical term for that is ''you're screwed''.  Grin

You ever read, "old dog with new tricks" over at forexfactory.com? Interesting read on this topic... correlation is a tricky thing, it can work for 100 years and then one day wipe you out. Kind of like martingale because for each band standard deviation away you will have to pour in exponentially more money to return back to the mean in your profit loss column... so 1 black swan event can wipe you out, unless you "know" to get out at the right time... take your profit and go home.

Its even more dangerous for arbritary "synthetic" baskets you would create (the cost of doing business rises)  because once the underlying fundamentals change resulting in a shift in the correlation it would change drastically and usually quickly enough to do the one thing that your system could not handle  in terms of margin requirements.... if you don't use margin its fine but you would be in the red until who knows when.
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January 24, 2014, 06:57:04 PM
 #4542

You ever read, "old dog with new tricks" over at forexfactory.com? Interesting read on this topic... correlation is a tricky thing, it can work for 100 years and then one day wipe you out. Kind of like martingale because for each band standard deviation away you will have to pour in exponentially more money to return back to the mean in your profit loss column... so 1 black swan event can wipe you out, unless you "know" to get out at the right time... take your profit and go home.

Its even more dangerous for arbritary "synthetic" baskets you would create (the cost of doing business rises)  because once the underlying fundamentals change resulting in a shift in the correlation it would change drastically and usually quickly enough to do the one thing that your system could not handle  in terms of margin requirements.... if you don't use margin its fine but you would be in the red until who knows when.

Yeah I've seen the thread on FF but not really read a lot of it. That's certainly true if for example you're running a fund with the aim of profiting entirely from correlation. And yes  I do believe that all correlations break down at some point. Here we're only talking about hedging the risk until the next devcoin payday, so the most you would lose with a hedge done correctly should be 1 or 1/2 of a paycheck even if unpredictable few SD events occur.
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January 24, 2014, 07:00:15 PM
 #4543

You ever read, "old dog with new tricks" over at forexfactory.com? Interesting read on this topic... correlation is a tricky thing, it can work for 100 years and then one day wipe you out. Kind of like martingale because for each band standard deviation away you will have to pour in exponentially more money to return back to the mean in your profit loss column... so 1 black swan event can wipe you out, unless you "know" to get out at the right time... take your profit and go home.

Its even more dangerous for arbritary "synthetic" baskets you would create (the cost of doing business rises)  because once the underlying fundamentals change resulting in a shift in the correlation it would change drastically and usually quickly enough to do the one thing that your system could not handle  in terms of margin requirements.... if you don't use margin its fine but you would be in the red until who knows when.

Yeah I've seen the thread on FF but not really read a lot of it. That's certainly true if for example you're running a fund with the aim of profiting entirely from correlation. And yes  I do believe that all correlations break down at some point. Here we're only talking about hedging the risk until the next devcoin payday, so they most you would lose with a hedge done correctly should be 1 or 1/2 of a paycheck.

True if we only allow hedge of one round of shares.. I guess its a good compromise although for devtome something would have to be figured out about the rolling share system across to the next round.
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January 24, 2014, 08:34:27 PM
 #4544

Hedging the writer's risk is exactly what I'm working on atm. Here's a part of my writing application I sent to Fuzzybear yesterday.

-----

One of my crypto related articles I’m working on atm is on hedging the devtome writers risk. Since I’ve started thinking about the prospect of getting paid in devcoins I started brainstorming about the possibility of hedging some of the risk due to the large fluctuations in the writers compensation month to month. As you’re aware, pay can wary from 10 to 200 usd per share. One of my ideas is to partially hedge this exposure by shorting bitcoins. Here’s the thinking behind it. Because to my knowledge, there is no way to short devcoin outright, by using btc as a proxy and shorting it instead you stand to gain if cryptocurrencies decline in value.

From the data I’ve seen so far (could only find data since June 2013) devcoin’s price in usd tends to follow bitcoin/litecoin’s rise or fall. In the 8 months I have data for, DVC traded within a 30% band against bitcoin/litecoin. In other words, as bitcoin/litecoin price in USD skyrocketed in 2013, devcoin followed suit and only lagged/outperformed by 30%. So basically by shorting btc ( or even ltc) you could in theory cover some of the risk associated with the fluctuating writers pay. If devcoin gains in value, you would get paid more for your writing. If it falls, it will likely be in tandem with the fall of bitcoin and you will recover some of the losses with your bitcoin short hedge. I’m still trying to find more data on dvc and see how it performed versus bitcoin before June 2013.

-------

Still trying to find more data on DVC/BTC going prior to June of last year. If It is something that I can import in MT4 it would be even better. If this turns out to be a somewhat viable plan to partially hedge the risk I plan to write an article on this for devtome. I think bitcoin options would be an even better option but I'm not sure that the broker's edge on these makes it worthwhile as a hedging mechanism. With a short btc option you win if bitcoin prices fall but you won't get ''violated'' if btc prices rise by tenfold like in November.

Another bonus of a short bitcoin position or option is that the devcoin price won't be affected at all.

It's an interesting discussion. Smiley
I don't know what the actual correlation is, but assuming the 30% band implies it's high then that's trading correlation risk really, rather than hedging - a basis trade. Basis trades are great until they're not. You wrote: 'If devcoin gains in value, you would get paid more for your writing. If it falls, it will likely be in tandem with the fall of bitcoin and you will recover some of the losses with your bitcoin short hedge.' That also means if devcoin rises in tandem you will lose some of your gains with the bitcoin hedge.

The issue is that as a writer, writing for devcoins, the only risk you're really concerned about is dvc price falls, not rises. If it falls > 30% tolerance you've given yourself then you can be left worse off than just being long devcoin. So really you'd need to structure it so that the trade has skew which would need options.
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January 24, 2014, 08:35:21 PM
 #4545

Novacadian made two way email on his test forum at:
http://trollkeep.com/forum/

I sent an email from my forum account to unthinkingbit@gmail.com and replied to it from gmail, and it went my forum inbox. For this Novacadian gets half of the 48 shares plus 6 million devcoin bounty forum email bounty. That bounty is closed. When Novacadian gets it working on coinzen, then he and Tenthirtyone will share the remainder, each will get 12 shares plus 1.5 million devcoins.

The ultimate email plan is to have a challenge response system, where a sender not on the recipient's whitelist has to pay about 30 cents in cryptocurrency to send to a coinzen account. This would stop spam completely and is a difficult project. I suggest a payment of 96 shares to Novacadian and Tenthirtyone to implement challenge response. Then another 96 shares to implement payment challenge response. This would be 3/4 for Novacadian and 1/4 for Tenthirtyone. If the basic challenge response is not implemented in two months, this would become an open bounty.

Any objections, or should something be changed?

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January 24, 2014, 08:42:16 PM
 #4546

Sent from the forum to gmail and gmail back to the forum. Deja vu.
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January 24, 2014, 08:44:25 PM
 #4547

A dvc/fiat exchange, bank or investment fund might be a good idea. But they need to be subject to simple market forces and risk of loss like everything else. I'm not getting how a fund could be managed without reference to the market pricing you said was being avoided, except in just being a new market?

Im not sure what Ive come up with Weisoq, I wrote it up last night : http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=devcoin_fund

Ive never done anything like this and I admit absolute ignorance but the idea wouldnt go away lol

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January 24, 2014, 08:46:25 PM
 #4548

Novacadian made two way email on his test forum at:
http://trollkeep.com/forum/

I sent an email from my forum account to unthinkingbit@gmail.com and replied to it from gmail, and it went my forum inbox. For this Novacadian gets half of the 48 shares plus 6 million devcoin bounty forum email bounty. That bounty is closed. When Novacadian gets it working on coinzen, then he and Tenthirtyone will share the remainder, each will get 12 shares plus 1.5 million devcoins.

The ultimate email plan is to have a challenge response system, where a sender not on the recipient's whitelist has to pay about 30 cents in cryptocurrency to send to a coinzen account. This would stop spam completely and is a difficult project. I suggest a payment of 96 shares to Novacadian and Tenthirtyone to implement challenge response. Then another 96 shares to implement payment challenge response. This would be 3/4 for Novacadian and 1/4 for Tenthirtyone. If the basic challenge response is not implemented in two months, this would become an open bounty.

Any objections, or should something be changed?


96 shares is on par with an open source devcoin atm machine... is this equivalent work?
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January 24, 2014, 08:56:36 PM
 #4549

Since the email is already being intercepted firing off a response to it does not sound hard, the same procmail or whatever tool that does the intercepting is designed already to do recipes that send responses as well as recipes that file the emails into different places or recipients or mailboxes or send them to scripts etc etc so respondng is trivial.

Figuring out whether someone paid something would be the hard part.

There would need to be some way of checking whether the address they were told to pay to did get paid to.

This could be an income for the forum by the sound of it?

Since it wouldn't probably be giving out addresses belonging to the email recipient as payment addresses but, rather, addresses belonging to the forum email interception system itself?

Would they be paying via a third party payment processor so that they have choices of what kinds of (crypto)currencies to pay with?

Presumably using a third party of that kind would be easier than dealing directly with one or more coin daemons?

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January 24, 2014, 09:43:27 PM
 #4550

..
96 shares is on par with an open source devcoin atm machine... is this equivalent work?

It is much less work than an open source devcoin atm. However, 96 shares is nowhere near enough for the atm, it would probably be at least a thousand shares. All the bounty for the atm got was complaints that it was not big enough. The reason the boounty was offered is because it was asked for, it is not enough to get the atm because devcoin can't afford that yet.

Since the email is already being intercepted firing off a response to it does not sound hard, the same procmail or whatever tool that does the intercepting is designed already to do recipes that send responses as well as recipes that file the emails into different places or recipients or mailboxes or send them to scripts etc etc so respondng is trivial.

The email bounty was there for about 6 months before it worked when I tested it. The challenge response is harder than just email. I don't want to wait another 6 months, I want it now.

Quote
Figuring out whether someone paid something would be the hard part.

There would need to be some way of checking whether the address they were told to pay to did get paid to.

It would go to a forum wallet, so the forum would have to check that wallet or a block explorer.

Quote
This could be an income for the forum by the sound of it?

Yes, but it would be small, that's just a nice bonus from stopping spam.

Quote
Since it wouldn't probably be giving out addresses belonging to the email recipient as payment addresses but, rather, addresses belonging to the forum email interception system itself?

Would they be paying via a third party payment processor so that they have choices of what kinds of (crypto)currencies to pay with?

The addresses would belong to the forum email system. It's up to the developer how to the handle payments.

Quote
Presumably using a third party of that kind would be easier than dealing directly with one or more coin daemons?

Alternately, they could check existing block explorers. That would mean a lag of typically ten minutes, but that's not a big deal because the average lag from answering an email is at least several hours.

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January 24, 2014, 10:26:59 PM
 #4551

I created the first iteration of the auction business plan:

http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=auction_business

please review.

Thanks
Jag
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January 24, 2014, 10:30:31 PM
 #4552

I created the first iteration of the auction business plan:

http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=auction_business

please review.

Thanks
Jag

Oh gosh don't accept paypal! YOu need non-reversible money otherwise you just become a place where people can turn stolen paypal accounts into easily resold good such as iPads iPhones or whatever you plan to auction.

Also get rid of this idea buying objects with shares then auctioning the objects.

Sell bids, and do not buy any objects that you do not have enough cash on hand (from sales of bids) to buy.

It is bad enough that likely we will end up having to spend shares on staff for this thing. If it cannot sell enough bids to buy things to auction forget it as untenable.

Also this makes sure it stays tenable, since if people keep it secret enough that they end up buying each item for one bid per item at least the damn item won't have cost us more than $0.60 (one bid) to buy. If people want nice things to bid on let them buy enough bids to enable us to get nice things to put up for auction.

There is enough incentive already for the site operators to deliberately have promotion fail so they are the only bidders, without letting what they bid on be worth more than the amount of bids they their cronies their families etc bought.

-MarkM-

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January 24, 2014, 10:53:33 PM
 #4553

I created the first iteration of the auction business plan:

http://www.devtome.com/doku.php?id=auction_business

please review.

Thanks
Jag

Oh gosh don't accept paypal! YOu need non-reversible money otherwise you just become a place where people can turn stolen paypal accounts into easily resold good such as iPads iPhones or whatever you plan to auction.

Also get rid of this idea buying objects with shares then auctioning the objects.

Sell bids, and do not buy any objects that you do not have enough cash on hand (from sales of bids) to buy.

It is bad enough that likely we will end up having to spend shares on staff for this thing. If it cannot sell enough bids to buy things to auction forget it as untenable.

Also this makes sure it stays tenable, since if people keep it secret enough that they end up buying each item for one bid per item at least the damn item won't have cost us more than $0.60 (one bid) to buy. If people want nice things to bid on let them buy enough bids to enable us to get nice things to put up for auction.

There is enough incentive already for the site operators to deliberately have promotion fail so they are the only bidders, without letting what they bid on be worth more than the amount of bids they their cronies their families etc bought.

-MarkM-


Ahh I see, yea I just said IF we accept paypal(fiat)... but I suggested we do not offer paypal just coinpayments.

I guess we can start off by selling bids before auctions, just that I don't see how this would work. People want to "see" first then act... rather than acting first then "seeing". We will only have people sign up that fully get ahead of time what we are trying to do, rather than inticing people through things that they may want or need. We can avoid any upfront costs by selling the bids just to see using your method, since people were already interested in it! and go from there... lets see what others have to say.
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January 24, 2014, 10:57:32 PM
Last edit: January 24, 2014, 11:16:37 PM by markm
 #4554

I already explained that.

Tell people up front how many bids we need to sell before the auction can start.

That way if they want the auction to start soon they need to cause bids to be sold faster.

If they don't mind waiting a few weeks for the uaction to start, they can keep the site secret so that it takes forever to sell enough bids to enable us to start the auction.

Want that iPad soon? Tell everyone you know about the site.

Not in a hurry to bid on an iPad? Keep the site secret so we never sell enough bids to buy an iPad thus never start an auction auctioning an iPad.

Simple.

You can still entice using things they need. Ashop has a wishlist, you can look at the wishlists to see what people wish we would auction, and announce that if we sell enough bids we will auction one.

You claim the method of auction is lucrative.

If so once we have auctioned one iPad we should have profits from that enough to buy two or dozens more.

If not, again, the thing is not even paying for itself so should be abandoned as sorry the founders were not afterall the awesome marketers they imagined themselves to be, their mailing lists were not large enough or responsive enough to bring in enough traffic to sustain such a site, maybe they should build their mailing lists a few more years until they do have enough hundreds of thousands or millions of people on their mailing lists to be able to drive enough traffic to sustain such a site.

Why are you so determined to have your mom's iPad bought for you by us? What is this drive you have to get us to buy you one?

It seems suspicious, as if you already figured out the "tell only your friends family and cronies about it so you can scam us out of shitloads of gadgets" scam.

If the damn thing is so damn lucrative it damn well should be able to pay its own way.

If not then sorry you were totally ignorant of how lucrative those things are, it is not afterall the latest and greatest how to get rich on the internet website type afterall.

Such sites are probably extremely expensive to market because no one has any incentive, normally, to tell anyone about them as more users means more competitors in auctions which means higher priced goods. So maybe you should start figuring out how your television ads are going to attract more users than qibid's television ads...

Or, tell people item X will not be auctioned until Y number of bids have been sold, so that if they want the auction to ever start at all they'd better tell all their friends and family to come and buy bids.

Maybe even tell them some clever stragegies, such as picking an item they do NOT want to bid on, and advertising the upcoming auction of THAT item on forums etc where people who are into THAT kind of stuff hang out, so that floods of people will come to buy bids for the "white elephant" causing enough bids to be sold for the iPad you want to finally come up for auction. (As well as the "white elephant", of course, but you don't care about that, you just want elephant lovers to come buy bids so your iPad auction will start...)

NOTE: REMEMBER too that the VAST MAJORITY of users of such sites basically get ripped off. So expect to need constant NEW floods of users as you probably will find you lose users at a massive massive rate. Also most people who ever used any such site also mostly got ripped off so expect that maybe a vast majority of them already know better than to use such a site. So you will probably need to spend far far more on television ads than you ever spend on things to auction.

-MarkM-

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January 24, 2014, 11:09:43 PM
 #4555

Hey Unthinkabit

Are bounties these still active?  Do you have any additional specs for what the end result should look like?

18 shares for a price ticker in a forum

24 shares for automatic vote counting of public 0-99 range votes

12 shares for a link generated from a post title


..
Maybe with the new DVC value (and it's still rising) we could have a new bounty for upgraded clients across all platforms - with some nice new features integrated such an integrated exchange, price ticker, messaging, voting on new open source projects to sponsor even, easypost to Devtome? etc

I don't want to add anything to the client, because every feature is a potential monetary exploit.

However, a forum doesn't hold money, so features could be added there safely. The integrated exchange would itself be exploited if the forum was hacked into, so it shouldn't be integrated. A price ticker is safe, and would be great for each alt coin. Messaging is already there. Voting on new open source projects to sponsor, or anything else, would be good. For easypost to devtome, sharing login might be a security risk, but it would be safe for a link to be generated to a devtome page from the post title.

I suggest the following:
18 shares for a price ticker in a forum
24 shares for automatic vote counting of public 0-99 range votes
12 shares for a link generated from a post title

These bounties would be doubled if the other forum bounties are doubled. Any objections, or should anything be changed?

Quote
Hey with the rising price may as well think big Smiley

I agree, we just have to think of good ways of spending the windfall Smiley
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January 25, 2014, 01:15:23 AM
Last edit: January 25, 2014, 01:30:02 AM by sidhujag
 #4556

I already explained that.

Tell people up front how many bids we need to sell before the auction can start.

That way if they want the auction to start soon they need to cause bids to be sold faster.

If they don't mind waiting a few weeks for the uaction to start, they can keep the site secret so that it takes forever to sell enough bids to enable us to start the auction.

Want that iPad soon? Tell everyone you know about the site.

Not in a hurry to bid on an iPad? Keep the site secret so we never sell enough bids to buy an iPad thus never start an auction auctioning an iPad.

Simple.

You can still entice using things they need. Ashop has a wishlist, you can look at the wishlists to see what people wish we would auction, and announce that if we sell enough bids we will auction one.

You claim the method of auction is lucrative.

If so once we have auctioned one iPad we should have profits from that enough to buy two or dozens more.

If not, again, the thing is not even paying for itself so should be abandoned as sorry the founders were not afterall the awesome marketers they imagined themselves to be, their mailing lists were not large enough or responsive enough to bring in enough traffic to sustain such a site, maybe they should build their mailing lists a few more years until they do have enough hundreds of thousands or millions of people on their mailing lists to be able to drive enough traffic to sustain such a site.

Why are you so determined to have your mom's iPad bought for you by us? What is this drive you have to get us to buy you one?

It seems suspicious, as if you already figured out the "tell only your friends family and cronies about it so you can scam us out of shitloads of gadgets" scam.

If the damn thing is so damn lucrative it damn well should be able to pay its own way.

If not then sorry you were totally ignorant of how lucrative those things are, it is not afterall the latest and greatest how to get rich on the internet website type afterall.

Such sites are probably extremely expensive to market because no one has any incentive, normally, to tell anyone about them as more users means more competitors in auctions which means higher priced goods. So maybe you should start figuring out how your television ads are going to attract more users than qibid's television ads...

Or, tell people item X will not be auctioned until Y number of bids have been sold, so that if they want the auction to ever start at all they'd better tell all their friends and family to come and buy bids.

Maybe even tell them some clever stragegies, such as picking an item they do NOT want to bid on, and advertising the upcoming auction of THAT item on forums etc where people who are into THAT kind of stuff hang out, so that floods of people will come to buy bids for the "white elephant" causing enough bids to be sold for the iPad you want to finally come up for auction. (As well as the "white elephant", of course, but you don't care about that, you just want elephant lovers to come buy bids so your iPad auction will start...)

NOTE: REMEMBER too that the VAST MAJORITY of users of such sites basically get ripped off. So expect to need constant NEW floods of users as you probably will find you lose users at a massive massive rate. Also most people who ever used any such site also mostly got ripped off so expect that maybe a vast majority of them already know better than to use such a site. So you will probably need to spend far far more on television ads than you ever spend on things to auction.

-MarkM-


No I do not have an alternative motive don't worry. lol the way I think about it is that people would not join to buy bids unless the product offered infront of their eyes. So there is the drwaback of people keeping it a secret yes.. and to combat that I think your idea of preselling bids is good so we don't fall into that trap, and it might work out better as when demand picks up we will have more bids selling and more funds to buy things etc etc... Im not sure how it would work trying to presell people on bids based on telling them what they may get after they have the bids... just not sure about that, but it is a safer strategy, and really up to everyone else. Personally I prefer to have inventory upfront, its a safer approach to be able to sell what you have. We can always make sure we have inventory sold for atleast breakeven by setting a reserve auction at first, that maybe will re leave some of your suspicion? I will leave others to read it and decide what the best way to go about it is. I think what you said is a possibility and it is an option. I think some healthy competition to devtome would be good however and it is badly needed.

Remember that profits go to devcoin and not me so by you saying maybe the founders should have built up a list of more people to market it to, doesn't make much sense to me because whoever does it is for the good of everyne here, so why dont YOU do that and help get that list bigger and if YOU don't know how then get someone that does or help in any way you could to help market? After all the idea is looking or trying to look after YOUR best interest in rising coin value.

The early penny auction sites did have people feeling ripped off, and quibids still does but competition helped that... what others did was allow people to buy it now and give back the bids they used for the auction. If you read my proposal you would have seen the part I talked about the worst case buying the item at marked value we deem appropriate probably plus a small markup for our service (since they had a chance to buy it cheaper, but decided to take back their bids). That way if they feel they are overspending, they can simply use buy it now and buy it... this is a way for people NOT to feel ripped off. I think we should probably support this. This means that we would have to be able to buy the product on demand based on a buy it now, and tell the user that hey if you use buy it now, you may be waiting a little while until we procure another item of the same description.. since mostly it would be people who ended up overbidding and didn't want to throw their bids away.

However im not sure how preselling bids would work with this, and may not work with it... so at first we may want to do a presale, and later on switch over to be funded by devcoin after it gets going with enough people who already know about it. That is when we turn on the buy it now feature and really get the ball rolling.

Im probabyl going to buy this template that gives us full source, and it has all of these features that I proposed... I will play with it and make it look good I want to change a few things, text font etc add devcoin logo etc and then get people to try it out.... I want to talk to the developer first though... waiting for a response.
Bittzy78
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January 25, 2014, 02:23:59 AM
 #4557

I already explained that.

Tell people up front how many bids we need to sell before the auction can start.

That way if they want the auction to start soon they need to cause bids to be sold faster.

If they don't mind waiting a few weeks for the uaction to start, they can keep the site secret so that it takes forever to sell enough bids to enable us to start the auction.

Want that iPad soon? Tell everyone you know about the site.

Not in a hurry to bid on an iPad? Keep the site secret so we never sell enough bids to buy an iPad thus never start an auction auctioning an iPad.

Simple.

You can still entice using things they need. Ashop has a wishlist, you can look at the wishlists to see what people wish we would auction, and announce that if we sell enough bids we will auction one.

You claim the method of auction is lucrative.

If so once we have auctioned one iPad we should have profits from that enough to buy two or dozens more.

If not, again, the thing is not even paying for itself so should be abandoned as sorry the founders were not afterall the awesome marketers they imagined themselves to be, their mailing lists were not large enough or responsive enough to bring in enough traffic to sustain such a site, maybe they should build their mailing lists a few more years until they do have enough hundreds of thousands or millions of people on their mailing lists to be able to drive enough traffic to sustain such a site.

Why are you so determined to have your mom's iPad bought for you by us? What is this drive you have to get us to buy you one?

It seems suspicious, as if you already figured out the "tell only your friends family and cronies about it so you can scam us out of shitloads of gadgets" scam.

If the damn thing is so damn lucrative it damn well should be able to pay its own way.

If not then sorry you were totally ignorant of how lucrative those things are, it is not afterall the latest and greatest how to get rich on the internet website type afterall.

Such sites are probably extremely expensive to market because no one has any incentive, normally, to tell anyone about them as more users means more competitors in auctions which means higher priced goods. So maybe you should start figuring out how your television ads are going to attract more users than qibid's television ads...

Or, tell people item X will not be auctioned until Y number of bids have been sold, so that if they want the auction to ever start at all they'd better tell all their friends and family to come and buy bids.

Maybe even tell them some clever stragegies, such as picking an item they do NOT want to bid on, and advertising the upcoming auction of THAT item on forums etc where people who are into THAT kind of stuff hang out, so that floods of people will come to buy bids for the "white elephant" causing enough bids to be sold for the iPad you want to finally come up for auction. (As well as the "white elephant", of course, but you don't care about that, you just want elephant lovers to come buy bids so your iPad auction will start...)

NOTE: REMEMBER too that the VAST MAJORITY of users of such sites basically get ripped off. So expect to need constant NEW floods of users as you probably will find you lose users at a massive massive rate. Also most people who ever used any such site also mostly got ripped off so expect that maybe a vast majority of them already know better than to use such a site. So you will probably need to spend far far more on television ads than you ever spend on things to auction.

-MarkM-


No I do not have an alternative motive don't worry. lol the way I think about it is that people would not join to buy bids unless the product offered infront of their eyes. So there is the drwaback of people keeping it a secret yes.. and to combat that I think your idea of preselling bids is good so we don't fall into that trap, and it might work out better as when demand picks up we will have more bids selling and more funds to buy things etc etc... Im not sure how it would work trying to presell people on bids based on telling them what they may get after they have the bids... just not sure about that, but it is a safer strategy, and really up to everyone else. Personally I prefer to have inventory upfront, its a safer approach to be able to sell what you have. We can always make sure we have inventory sold for atleast breakeven by setting a reserve auction at first, that maybe will re leave some of your suspicion? I will leave others to read it and decide what the best way to go about it is. I think what you said is a possibility and it is an option. I think some healthy competition to devtome would be good however and it is badly needed.

Remember that profits go to devcoin and not me so by you saying maybe the founders should have built up a list of more people to market it to, doesn't make much sense to me because whoever does it is for the good of everyne here, so why dont YOU do that and help get that list bigger and if YOU don't know how then get someone that does or help in any way you could to help market? After all the idea is looking or trying to look after YOUR best interest in rising coin value.

The early penny auction sites did have people feeling ripped off, and quibids still does but competition helped that... what others did was allow people to buy it now and give back the bids they used for the auction. If you read my proposal you would have seen the part I talked about the worst case buying the item at marked value we deem appropriate probably plus a small markup for our service (since they had a chance to buy it cheaper, but decided to take back their bids). That way if they feel they are overspending, they can simply use buy it now and buy it... this is a way for people NOT to feel ripped off. I think we should probably support this. This means that we would have to be able to buy the product on demand based on a buy it now, and tell the user that hey if you use buy it now, you may be waiting a little while until we procure another item of the same description.. since mostly it would be people who ended up overbidding and didn't want to throw their bids away.

However im not sure how preselling bids would work with this, and may not work with it... so at first we may want to do a presale, and later on switch over to be funded by devcoin after it gets going with enough people who already know about it. That is when we turn on the buy it now feature and really get the ball rolling.

Im probabyl going to buy this template that gives us full source, and it has all of these features that I proposed... I will play with it and make it look good I want to change a few things, text font etc add devcoin logo etc and then get people to try it out.... I want to talk to the developer first though... waiting for a response.

If you go the preselling bids route (waiting for enough bid purchases before going live) that means that there is a chance that a product to bid on might never materialize. I would have no interest in buying bids unless I knew there were live products to bid on, others would probably think the same way.

It is probably not possible to start something like this without having to eat a loss on several of the first products. Eventually, If the products are good, crypto bids will follow. The main problem is getting past the barrier where people are sure the site is on the up and up. Once that barrier has been passed, the bids will come fast and furious.

Being able to use a "buy it now" feature and purchase products with Devcoins (instead of bidding) is something I would guarantee that I would take advantage of.

Possibly allowing the transfer of bids between members and the purchase of partial bids would be cool as well... Smiley

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sidhujag
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January 25, 2014, 02:36:30 AM
 #4558

I already explained that.

Tell people up front how many bids we need to sell before the auction can start.

That way if they want the auction to start soon they need to cause bids to be sold faster.

If they don't mind waiting a few weeks for the uaction to start, they can keep the site secret so that it takes forever to sell enough bids to enable us to start the auction.

Want that iPad soon? Tell everyone you know about the site.

Not in a hurry to bid on an iPad? Keep the site secret so we never sell enough bids to buy an iPad thus never start an auction auctioning an iPad.

Simple.

You can still entice using things they need. Ashop has a wishlist, you can look at the wishlists to see what people wish we would auction, and announce that if we sell enough bids we will auction one.

You claim the method of auction is lucrative.

If so once we have auctioned one iPad we should have profits from that enough to buy two or dozens more.

If not, again, the thing is not even paying for itself so should be abandoned as sorry the founders were not afterall the awesome marketers they imagined themselves to be, their mailing lists were not large enough or responsive enough to bring in enough traffic to sustain such a site, maybe they should build their mailing lists a few more years until they do have enough hundreds of thousands or millions of people on their mailing lists to be able to drive enough traffic to sustain such a site.

Why are you so determined to have your mom's iPad bought for you by us? What is this drive you have to get us to buy you one?

It seems suspicious, as if you already figured out the "tell only your friends family and cronies about it so you can scam us out of shitloads of gadgets" scam.

If the damn thing is so damn lucrative it damn well should be able to pay its own way.

If not then sorry you were totally ignorant of how lucrative those things are, it is not afterall the latest and greatest how to get rich on the internet website type afterall.

Such sites are probably extremely expensive to market because no one has any incentive, normally, to tell anyone about them as more users means more competitors in auctions which means higher priced goods. So maybe you should start figuring out how your television ads are going to attract more users than qibid's television ads...

Or, tell people item X will not be auctioned until Y number of bids have been sold, so that if they want the auction to ever start at all they'd better tell all their friends and family to come and buy bids.

Maybe even tell them some clever stragegies, such as picking an item they do NOT want to bid on, and advertising the upcoming auction of THAT item on forums etc where people who are into THAT kind of stuff hang out, so that floods of people will come to buy bids for the "white elephant" causing enough bids to be sold for the iPad you want to finally come up for auction. (As well as the "white elephant", of course, but you don't care about that, you just want elephant lovers to come buy bids so your iPad auction will start...)

NOTE: REMEMBER too that the VAST MAJORITY of users of such sites basically get ripped off. So expect to need constant NEW floods of users as you probably will find you lose users at a massive massive rate. Also most people who ever used any such site also mostly got ripped off so expect that maybe a vast majority of them already know better than to use such a site. So you will probably need to spend far far more on television ads than you ever spend on things to auction.

-MarkM-


No I do not have an alternative motive don't worry. lol the way I think about it is that people would not join to buy bids unless the product offered infront of their eyes. So there is the drwaback of people keeping it a secret yes.. and to combat that I think your idea of preselling bids is good so we don't fall into that trap, and it might work out better as when demand picks up we will have more bids selling and more funds to buy things etc etc... Im not sure how it would work trying to presell people on bids based on telling them what they may get after they have the bids... just not sure about that, but it is a safer strategy, and really up to everyone else. Personally I prefer to have inventory upfront, its a safer approach to be able to sell what you have. We can always make sure we have inventory sold for atleast breakeven by setting a reserve auction at first, that maybe will re leave some of your suspicion? I will leave others to read it and decide what the best way to go about it is. I think what you said is a possibility and it is an option. I think some healthy competition to devtome would be good however and it is badly needed.

Remember that profits go to devcoin and not me so by you saying maybe the founders should have built up a list of more people to market it to, doesn't make much sense to me because whoever does it is for the good of everyne here, so why dont YOU do that and help get that list bigger and if YOU don't know how then get someone that does or help in any way you could to help market? After all the idea is looking or trying to look after YOUR best interest in rising coin value.

The early penny auction sites did have people feeling ripped off, and quibids still does but competition helped that... what others did was allow people to buy it now and give back the bids they used for the auction. If you read my proposal you would have seen the part I talked about the worst case buying the item at marked value we deem appropriate probably plus a small markup for our service (since they had a chance to buy it cheaper, but decided to take back their bids). That way if they feel they are overspending, they can simply use buy it now and buy it... this is a way for people NOT to feel ripped off. I think we should probably support this. This means that we would have to be able to buy the product on demand based on a buy it now, and tell the user that hey if you use buy it now, you may be waiting a little while until we procure another item of the same description.. since mostly it would be people who ended up overbidding and didn't want to throw their bids away.

However im not sure how preselling bids would work with this, and may not work with it... so at first we may want to do a presale, and later on switch over to be funded by devcoin after it gets going with enough people who already know about it. That is when we turn on the buy it now feature and really get the ball rolling.

Im probabyl going to buy this template that gives us full source, and it has all of these features that I proposed... I will play with it and make it look good I want to change a few things, text font etc add devcoin logo etc and then get people to try it out.... I want to talk to the developer first though... waiting for a response.

If you go the preselling bids route (waiting for enough bid purchases before going live) that means that there is a chance that a product to bid on might never materialize. I would have no interest in buying bids unless I knew there were live products to bid on, others would probably think the same way.

It is probably not possible to start something like this without having to eat a loss on several of the first products. Eventually, If the products are good, crypto bids will follow. The main problem is getting past the barrier where people are sure the site is on the up and up. Once that barrier has been passed, the bids will come fast and furious.

Being able to use a "buy it now" feature and purchase products with Devcoins (instead of bidding) is something I would guarantee that I would take advantage of.

Possibly allowing the transfer of bids between members and the purchase of partial bids would be cool as well... Smiley


Buy it now would be based on the price of the product in whatever currency we display so as a start if we do fiat then you would transfer in the equivalent amount of devcoins to purchase it.. essentially negating the need to dump at market to bitcoin to fiat to the store. The site still wants profit so there would be a slight markup but since things are usually cheaper online especially if we can workout a wholesale deal with suppliers then price should be on par with what you normally pay at the store anyway.. minus tax I guess too.
Bittzy78
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January 25, 2014, 03:01:36 AM
 #4559

I already explained that.

Tell people up front how many bids we need to sell before the auction can start.

That way if they want the auction to start soon they need to cause bids to be sold faster.

If they don't mind waiting a few weeks for the uaction to start, they can keep the site secret so that it takes forever to sell enough bids to enable us to start the auction.

Want that iPad soon? Tell everyone you know about the site.

Not in a hurry to bid on an iPad? Keep the site secret so we never sell enough bids to buy an iPad thus never start an auction auctioning an iPad.

Simple.

You can still entice using things they need. Ashop has a wishlist, you can look at the wishlists to see what people wish we would auction, and announce that if we sell enough bids we will auction one.

You claim the method of auction is lucrative.

If so once we have auctioned one iPad we should have profits from that enough to buy two or dozens more.

If not, again, the thing is not even paying for itself so should be abandoned as sorry the founders were not afterall the awesome marketers they imagined themselves to be, their mailing lists were not large enough or responsive enough to bring in enough traffic to sustain such a site, maybe they should build their mailing lists a few more years until they do have enough hundreds of thousands or millions of people on their mailing lists to be able to drive enough traffic to sustain such a site.

Why are you so determined to have your mom's iPad bought for you by us? What is this drive you have to get us to buy you one?

It seems suspicious, as if you already figured out the "tell only your friends family and cronies about it so you can scam us out of shitloads of gadgets" scam.

If the damn thing is so damn lucrative it damn well should be able to pay its own way.

If not then sorry you were totally ignorant of how lucrative those things are, it is not afterall the latest and greatest how to get rich on the internet website type afterall.

Such sites are probably extremely expensive to market because no one has any incentive, normally, to tell anyone about them as more users means more competitors in auctions which means higher priced goods. So maybe you should start figuring out how your television ads are going to attract more users than qibid's television ads...

Or, tell people item X will not be auctioned until Y number of bids have been sold, so that if they want the auction to ever start at all they'd better tell all their friends and family to come and buy bids.

Maybe even tell them some clever stragegies, such as picking an item they do NOT want to bid on, and advertising the upcoming auction of THAT item on forums etc where people who are into THAT kind of stuff hang out, so that floods of people will come to buy bids for the "white elephant" causing enough bids to be sold for the iPad you want to finally come up for auction. (As well as the "white elephant", of course, but you don't care about that, you just want elephant lovers to come buy bids so your iPad auction will start...)

NOTE: REMEMBER too that the VAST MAJORITY of users of such sites basically get ripped off. So expect to need constant NEW floods of users as you probably will find you lose users at a massive massive rate. Also most people who ever used any such site also mostly got ripped off so expect that maybe a vast majority of them already know better than to use such a site. So you will probably need to spend far far more on television ads than you ever spend on things to auction.

-MarkM-


No I do not have an alternative motive don't worry. lol the way I think about it is that people would not join to buy bids unless the product offered infront of their eyes. So there is the drwaback of people keeping it a secret yes.. and to combat that I think your idea of preselling bids is good so we don't fall into that trap, and it might work out better as when demand picks up we will have more bids selling and more funds to buy things etc etc... Im not sure how it would work trying to presell people on bids based on telling them what they may get after they have the bids... just not sure about that, but it is a safer strategy, and really up to everyone else. Personally I prefer to have inventory upfront, its a safer approach to be able to sell what you have. We can always make sure we have inventory sold for atleast breakeven by setting a reserve auction at first, that maybe will re leave some of your suspicion? I will leave others to read it and decide what the best way to go about it is. I think what you said is a possibility and it is an option. I think some healthy competition to devtome would be good however and it is badly needed.

Remember that profits go to devcoin and not me so by you saying maybe the founders should have built up a list of more people to market it to, doesn't make much sense to me because whoever does it is for the good of everyne here, so why dont YOU do that and help get that list bigger and if YOU don't know how then get someone that does or help in any way you could to help market? After all the idea is looking or trying to look after YOUR best interest in rising coin value.

The early penny auction sites did have people feeling ripped off, and quibids still does but competition helped that... what others did was allow people to buy it now and give back the bids they used for the auction. If you read my proposal you would have seen the part I talked about the worst case buying the item at marked value we deem appropriate probably plus a small markup for our service (since they had a chance to buy it cheaper, but decided to take back their bids). That way if they feel they are overspending, they can simply use buy it now and buy it... this is a way for people NOT to feel ripped off. I think we should probably support this. This means that we would have to be able to buy the product on demand based on a buy it now, and tell the user that hey if you use buy it now, you may be waiting a little while until we procure another item of the same description.. since mostly it would be people who ended up overbidding and didn't want to throw their bids away.

However im not sure how preselling bids would work with this, and may not work with it... so at first we may want to do a presale, and later on switch over to be funded by devcoin after it gets going with enough people who already know about it. That is when we turn on the buy it now feature and really get the ball rolling.

Im probabyl going to buy this template that gives us full source, and it has all of these features that I proposed... I will play with it and make it look good I want to change a few things, text font etc add devcoin logo etc and then get people to try it out.... I want to talk to the developer first though... waiting for a response.

If you go the preselling bids route (waiting for enough bid purchases before going live) that means that there is a chance that a product to bid on might never materialize. I would have no interest in buying bids unless I knew there were live products to bid on, others would probably think the same way.

It is probably not possible to start something like this without having to eat a loss on several of the first products. Eventually, If the products are good, crypto bids will follow. The main problem is getting past the barrier where people are sure the site is on the up and up. Once that barrier has been passed, the bids will come fast and furious.

Being able to use a "buy it now" feature and purchase products with Devcoins (instead of bidding) is something I would guarantee that I would take advantage of.

Possibly allowing the transfer of bids between members and the purchase of partial bids would be cool as well... Smiley


Buy it now would be based on the price of the product in whatever currency we display so as a start if we do fiat then you would transfer in the equivalent amount of devcoins to purchase it.. essentially negating the need to dump at market to bitcoin to fiat to the store. The site still wants profit so there would be a slight markup but since things are usually cheaper online especially if we can workout a wholesale deal with suppliers then price should be on par with what you normally pay at the store anyway.. minus tax I guess too.

One product that could be purchased and used by pretty much anyone in the world is a Steam digital gift card..
https://store.steampowered.com/account/redeemwalletcode

Heck, I would bid on one in the $25 - $40 range...at least a few bids.

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smeagol
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January 25, 2014, 03:49:44 AM
 #4560

I am using the latest sourceforge wallet version, and the tx does not show up on the blockchain.

My balance is right except for the transaction which took away 10 mil.

Any suggestions?

Any other solutions?  My tx is still in limbo

Should I revert back to the older client?

Do rescan didnt work? Can you try to redownload the blockchain? Delete your data folder but copy your wallet.dat file before you do! Then ensure your data directory only has the wallet.dat and maybe the conf file before restarting the qt.. it will start first block again let it finish..

But I presume since the tx didnt show up on blockchain that it got rejected... howver your balance should be right after the blockchain download for sure.. then try the tx again the same parameters.

Balance still shows 10 mil down

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