MasterCoin Buyer/Seller Thread

[DGulari]

This is a dumb idea and will only encourage the creation of an alternate buyer/seller thread without fees.
Please reconsider.

It's fine if we have a thread for the no fee people.  But that market will still have the inefficiencies we have today where you must contact 8 people to find one who will genuinely do a transaction at the advertised price. 

Prefunded offers can be accepted without contacting the seller.  This will go very far to reducing transactional friction. 

It has nothing to do with fees.  Fees or no fees, it will work great.  Fees are up to Max and Pouncer.  They have nothing at all to do with improving the system in place.  I just happen to think they are well earned.

Max - When a person asks to place an order on the book, you can create two escrow addresses.  Immediately send one to the guy wanting the offer placed.  The other is published in the table.  First guy to drop asked funds on the published address gets that which is on deposit in the coupled address.  Deal done.

You can start with my order for 200MSC@.1999.  Please send me an escrow address so I can deposit MSC now.  Then, please light up the order in the book with a green colored background to indicate a 'prefunded order' - permitting instant acceptance.

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[realthinkbit123]

Please add:
Want to buy : 10 MSC for 0.15 per coin (Toal 1.5)

[waltz]

i still want to buy 50 MSC at 0.14BTC. i am online today.
ASSP

[klee]

This is a dumb idea and will only encourage the creation of an alternate buyer/seller thread without fees.

Stop fragmenting the MSC community. Enough has been done already between the Coloured coins guy, the JR discussion and the change of forum.

Please reconsider.

So why don't you offer to help with the escrow? And keeping order book updated? Let's see how you handle it...

"So why don't you.. blah blah blah" is a terrible and childish way to discuss something.

Read my post and attack my arguments, otherwise your post is worthless.

Kiss my ass

[waltz]

i still want to buy 50 MSC at 0.14BTC. i am online today.
ASSP

my 100 msc order was finished. thanks for pouncer's good job. and i hope that all the traders tip the escrow's job.
cheers

[keystroke]

Please remove my current sell orders and add this one: I will sell 250 at .15. Please lots of 50 and up, thanks.

[FTWbitcoinFTW]

A little graph with MSC/BTC & MSC/$$$ side by side.

From 16 november (no date on previous trade)

Could be not 100% accurate, time data are not GMT standard

[Lilyreso]

I wanna buy 50 MSC @ 0.14, update please!

[ejinte]

http://www.reddit.com/r/mastercoin/comments/1s5taa/thinking_about_buying_mastercoins_read_this/

A warning to you all newbies!

[jeroenn13]

http://www.reddit.com/r/mastercoin/comments/1s5taa/thinking_about_buying_mastercoins_read_this/

A warning to you all newbies!

You should do your homework before buying anything. Anyone is free to sell MSC for any price.

[maxmint]

DGulari, regarding your comment about Pouncer: I want to highlight that he has been of enormous help and put countless hours of his time into this. I never could have handled all the order book entries and escrow requests alone. While I'm sleeping he's working on the order book and escrows – and vice versa.

This is a dumb idea and will only encourage the creation of an alternate buyer/seller thread without fees.

Stop fragmenting the MSC community. Enough has been done already between the Coloured coins guy, the JR discussion and the change of forum.

Please reconsider.

It might spawn another thread, but I don't think this would be bad. Besides, this is an open thread, anyone can still post direct trade offers here.

I'm not happy about introducing fees, but it's a fact that the current state of the order book makes trading really hard for both buyers and sellers. There are lots of outdated and / or fake offers and many people are not honoring their orders. Fees could solve some of these problems. At least it would make people think twice before placing an order.

I think it's obvious that we need a new system but I don't wanna jump the gun on this. Escpecially the "prefunded" option needs some testing before we can go live with this.
Here's a rough outline of the changes I would suggest. Most importantly, there will be 2 different type of listings, standard and prefunded.

Standard order
To prevent bogus orders there will be a flat fee for every placed standard order, 0.005 BTC or 0.01 BTC should be quite the right amount. This fee should hurt a little, but still be affordable. Changes to an existing order are free of charge.
I'm not yet sure about fees for escrowing standard orders, but there might be a 1% fee for this.

Prefunded order
There will be no upfront fee for placing a prefunded order. Sellers send the respective amount of Mastercoins to the escrow address and buyers can purchase Mastercoins directly from me. Changes to an existing prefunded offer are free of charge.
After a completed sale, a 1% fee will be applied to both the MSC and the BTC amount. Should the seller want to cancel a prefunded order and request the Mastercoins back a 1% fee will be taken off the Mastercoin amount.

Note that holding Mastercoins in escrow is quite different from holding Bitcoins in escrow. Bitcoin is well established and by taking certain precautions I can minimize the risk of losing someone's Bitcoins. Mastercoin on the other hand is an evolving protocol and I've already seen a couple of transactions that were open to interpretation. I will of course do my best but I have to stress that I can't take on any responsibility for Mastercoins held in escrow for prefunded orders.


I'm open for your suggestions and comments and would like to give all of the above said some space for discussion before implementing the changes.

But we can start testing the prefunded offers concept right away. DGulari, if you would like to go ahead and create the first prefunded offer, here's your escrow address:
1LdgFp2gLvWfkPnyTYAtH7ENnzgBDdNwfd
Send your Mastercoins there and let me know about your price, I'll then add this to the order book and mark it as a prefunded order.

[maxmint]

Please add:
Want to buy : 10 MSC for 0.15 per coin (Toal 1.5)

i still want to buy 50 MSC at 0.14BTC. i am online today.
ASSP

my 100 msc order was finished. thanks for pouncer's good job. and i hope that all the traders tip the escrow's job.
cheers

Please remove my current sell orders and add this one: I will sell 250 at .15. Please lots of 50 and up, thanks.

I wanna buy 50 MSC @ 0.14, update please!

Order book updated.

[DGulari]

DGulari, regarding your comment about Pouncer: I want to highlight that he has been of enormous help and put countless hours of his time into this.

Yeah, I don't want to dis Pouncer at all. He is helping and he is making things better.  I totally agree that he is great to have.  I am just saying, Max has been unreal good at making trades zero or low friction.  Even when it comes with special requests.  That is awesome.

However, I had hoped that there would be an upper limit on fees.  I don't think the fee for any single transaction should exceed $100 or .1BTC.  Each transaction takes the same work - whether it is for 1MSC or 1000MSC.  Can't we make a flat fee?  That makes more sense.  

For the transaction I just funded, the fee would be over $400.  I think this is excessive.  You guys are awesome and I am glad for your help - but I'd like fees to be in the spirit of bitcoin rather than Visa.  

[maxmint]

DGulari, regarding your comment about Pouncer: I want to highlight that he has been of enormous help and put countless hours of his time into this.

Yeah, I don't want to dis Pouncer at all. He is helping and he is making things better.  I totally agree that he is great to have.  I am just saying, Max has been unreal good at making trades zero or low friction.  Even when it comes with special requests.  That is awesome.

However, I had hoped that there would be an upper limit on fees.  I don't think any single transaction should exceed $100 or .1BTC.  Each transaction takes the same work - whether it is for 1MSC or 1000MSC.  Can't we make a flat fee?  That makes more sense. 

For the transaction I just funded, the fee would be over $400.  I think this is excessive.  You guys are awesome and I am glad for your help - but I'd like fees to be in the spirit of bitcoin rather than Visa. 

For higher amounts that might indeed be quite a large fee. And you're right, the amount of work is the same for small and large amounts. What changes is the amount of responsibility. I don't have any concerns holding 10 MSC in escrow because I could compensate a loss of 10 MSC out of my own pocket. But holding a couple of hundred Mastercoins is another thing and my gut tells me that this could lead to problems. That's why I think a percentage fee is justified.
But an upper limit on fees could be a solution, I'll be thinking about that.

For your first prefunded order, let's go without any fees at all. I'd like to test this concept and see how it works, so there's no need for a fee right now.

[keystroke]

I sold 200 MSC at .15 BTC a few days ago. Can we have a system in place to give feedback to buyers and sellers? This way people know who the reliable sellers are.

[maxmint]

I sold 200 MSC at .15 BTC a few days ago. Can we have a system in place to give feedback to buyers and sellers? This way people know who the reliable sellers are.

Why not using this forum's trust system to leave feedback?

[M.BTC]

Please remove my order, thx!

[keystroke]

I sold 200 MSC at .15 BTC a few days ago. Can we have a system in place to give feedback to buyers and sellers? This way people know who the reliable sellers are.

Why not using this forum's trust system to leave feedback?

That's a good idea but since I used escrow it is not as though someone "risked" the BTC to me. What do you think?

[peled1986]

Note that holding Mastercoins in escrow is quite different from holding Bitcoins in escrow. Bitcoin is well established and by taking certain precautions I can minimize the risk of losing someone's Bitcoins. Mastercoin on the other hand is an evolving protocol and I've already seen a couple of transactions that were open to interpretation. I will of course do my best but I have to stress that I can't take on any responsibility for Mastercoins held in escrow for prefunded orders.

DGulari, regarding your comment about Pouncer: I want to highlight that he has been of enormous help and put countless hours of his time into this.

However, I had hoped that there would be an upper limit on fees.  I don't think any single transaction should exceed $100 or .1BTC.  Each transaction takes the same work - whether it is for 1MSC or 1000MSC.  Can't we make a flat fee?  That makes more sense. 

For the transaction I just funded, the fee would be over $400.  I think this is excessive.  You guys are awesome and I am glad for your help - but I'd like fees to be in the spirit of bitcoin rather than Visa. 

For higher amounts that might indeed be quite a large fee. And you're right, the amount of work is the same for small and large amounts. What changes is the amount of responsibility. I don't have any concerns holding 10 MSC in escrow because I could compensate a loss of 10 MSC out of my own pocket. But holding a couple of hundred Mastercoins is another thing and my gut tells me that this could lead to problems. That's why I think a percentage fee is justified.
But an upper limit on fees could be a solution, I'll be thinking about that.

For your first prefunded order, let's go without any fees at all. I'd like to test this concept and see how it works, so there's no need for a fee right now.

Maybe I didn't understand but if you are saying that you are not taking responsibility to loss of MSC and the amount of time is the same why is a percentage fee justified on large trades? 

[DGulari]

Maybe I didn't understand but if you are saying that you are not taking responsibility to loss of MSC and the amount of time is the same why is a percentage fee justified on large trades? 

Even where he doesn't provide a guarantee - he must take greater care in handling large BTC.  Large transactions deserve a larger fee.  Just not over $100.  That is a lot.  I'll be signing up for escrow job if I get $100 to make one MSC transfer.