Cloudbet | Bitcoin Casino & Sportsbook | The No.1 Bitcoin Gambling Site

[Hhampuz]

On one hand I feel sorry for Cloubet, who has no choice but to perform all these AML/KYC measures, as is their requirement. But on the other hand, I think it is truly unfair to freeze player accounts without any actual justification, other than the standard lines we keep seeing casinos do to players.

For me it is not fair because this was done only during withdrawal, whereby true AML/KYC measures by companies and payment processors happen AT the moment of transaction, which in casino cases is when users sign up. IF you must do kyc, it must be at account creation. This solves all these issues for you and for players.

That's just how the casino business is. I've been gambling online for over 12 years and through the hundreds of websites that I've tried out I've never had any issues with signing up and depositing money, however when I want to withdraw I've always had to "activate" my account by sending in proper documentations. First off, I knew this when I got into it as it does make sense. You are sending them your money and once they've received it, it is their money. If you truly want a decentralized experience where you can keep yourself anonymous then you should never play at a regular casino. It's not that hard after all.

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[JollyGood]

On one hand I feel sorry for Cloubet, who has no choice but to perform all these AML/KYC measures, as is their requirement. But on the other hand, I think it is truly unfair to freeze player accounts without any actual justification, other than the standard lines we keep seeing casinos do to players.

For me it is not fair because this was done only during withdrawal, whereby true AML/KYC measures by companies and payment processors happen AT the moment of transaction, which in casino cases is when users sign up. IF you must do kyc, it must be at account creation. This solves all these issues for you and for players.

AML/KYC requirements vary from country to country, jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Which laws does Cloudbet claim to be governed by?

Why are Cloudbet complying with AML/KYC but not GDPR laws?

Why is AML or KYC not even mentioned once on their Cloudbet website?

Why do they invoke AML/KYC without making it known what it is on their website?

Why do they invoke AML/KYC without making it known what will happen if the customer declines to send ID on their website?

I agree, AML/KYC must be a condition when registering for an account at these betting sites which means deposits should only be able to take place if verification has been successful. That would solve a lot of problems. I for one will never send my ID to these online crypto companies because I do not trust them.

[marlboroza]

IF you must do kyc, it must be at account creation.

Actually, this is false. No one has to enforce KYC on signup or deposit.

@marlboroza I'm not aware of the specifics when it comes to AML laws (as that side of things is handled by other teams), but since most jurisdictions have similar laws i'd assume we make the effort to conform to as many as possible. The amount of money involved isn't the issue, if there's a deposit followed by a withdraw request without any activity then we have to ask for KYC.

So, under whose jurisdiction Cloudbet operate? I am surprised that 6 days has passed and you didn't check it, I asked you couple of times already. Can you check it for me?


One more thing, your ToS is not valid. Not a single player agreed to your ToS:



Under whose jurisdiction is hidden ToS valid 

[JollyGood]

IF you must do kyc, it must be at account creation.

Actually, this is false. No one has to enforce KYC on signup or deposit.

@marlboroza I'm not aware of the specifics when it comes to AML laws (as that side of things is handled by other teams), but since most jurisdictions have similar laws i'd assume we make the effort to conform to as many as possible. The amount of money involved isn't the issue, if there's a deposit followed by a withdraw request without any activity then we have to ask for KYC.

So, under whose jurisdiction Cloudbet operate? I am surprised that 6 days has passed and you didn't check it, I asked you couple of times already. Can you check it for me?


One more thing, your ToS is not valid. Not a single player agreed to your ToS:

Under whose jurisdiction is hidden ToS valid  

You raised very good points including the website TOS is not appropriate.

Rules regarding GDPR/AML/KYC is not mentioned even once on the Cloudbet website. I also raised important points in my posts here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=333552.msg45836329#msg45836329
and
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=333552.msg45862320#msg45862320

We are waiting for Ronnie @ Cloudbet to reply

[game-protect]

IF you must do kyc, it must be at account creation.

Actually, this is false. No one has to enforce KYC on signup or deposit.

KYC laws apply equally for deposits and withdrawals if they pass a certain amount.

But as Fraudbet is an illegal casino operation, they do not apply with anything and use KYC bla bla as a scam tactic!

[slaman29]

IF you must do kyc, it must be at account creation.

Actually, this is false. No one has to enforce KYC on signup or deposit.

What I'm saying is, if they HAVE to enforce KYC, and they know at some point they must, then it is onboarding that KYC should be implemented and not "surprise surprise we need to verify you" after the player decides he wants to withdraw his balance.

I think KYC shouldn't be enforced at all, but if they must because of law, actually I'm pretty sure the law states they must identify their customers whom they are taking money from. So either they have KYC or they don't. And if they do, make it clear from the beginning so that nobody is trapped.

[JollyGood]

What I'm saying is, if they HAVE to enforce KYC, and they know at some point they must, then it is onboarding that KYC should be implemented and not "surprise surprise we need to verify you" after the player decides he wants to withdraw his balance.

I think KYC shouldn't be enforced at all, but if they must because of law, actually I'm pretty sure the law states they must identify their customers whom they are taking money from. So either they have KYC or they don't. And if they do, make it clear from the beginning so that nobody is trapped.

This is exactly what this website and others including gambling, gaming and exchanges should do.

[Cloudbet]

Afternoon all! Sorry for the delayed responses, I was out yesterday unexpectedly and wasn't able to arrange cover at the last minute.

@teteczv Our investigations look at betting irregularity, but unfortunately I cannot talk about specifics. If you contact our support team directly they can update you with any new information. As far as I know you are not being accused of anything, but we need to investigate some apparent - we are simply raising a flag rather than pointing a finger.

@JollyGood

There is no information about what happens to withheld funds. Please explain.

In cases like the above funds are held in the player's account until an investigation is concluded, at which point they are either unlocked for withdrawal or reclaimed in cases where a player has deliberately broken our rules.

There is no information about what makes you selectively freeze funds. Please explain.

As stated before, the only time funds are frozen is when there is proof of deliberate rule breaking. I'll discuss with our support teams how we can make this clearer on site, but our rules are there for everyone to see before signing up to Cloudbet.

There is no information about which legal jurisdiction you deal with and expect your customers to deal with. Please explain.

In which country/city is CB Holdings registered?

What is the full address of CB Holdings? Is it just a mailing address or is there an actual office with staff working there?

Who are the owners and shareholders of CB Holdings?

We clearly state our Terms and Conditions and where our license is held. Unfortunately, I have no further information beyond what is provided on that page. You can contact E Gambling Montenegro directly for information or dispute resolution if you ever have cause for complaint.

@slaman29 Thanks for stopping by! At the moment we only request KYC when certain flags have been raised. We try to avoid it wherever possible as we know anonymity is very important to some of our players, and I suspect that KYC for all new players on sign up would drive a lot of people away. It's something I'm happy to pass on as feedback to the team though, as I know the topic comes up for discussion regularly.

@marlboroza You make a very good point about agreeing to T&Cs at sign up. The paragraph below covers agreement to T&Cs, but I'll pass the suggestion to our website team about making that more explicit on the sign up form:

"By using and/or visiting any part, page or section of the website Cloudbet.com (the “Website”), and/or opening an account with Cloudbet, you agree to be bound by these Terms and Conditions and are deemed to have accepted and understood all of the Terms and Conditions."

In regards to the KYC jurisdiction, I received a response from support yesterday but was out of the office - "AML is not really specific to a jurisdiction, we have our own internal best practice policy which dictates the process we follow. We obviously follow the rules laid out by our license provider and ADR and mirror these in other territories as part of our dedication to being a responsible gambling operator."

Thanks very much,

Ronnie @ Cloudbet

[JollyGood]

In regards to the KYC jurisdiction, I received a response from support yesterday but was out of the office - "AML is not really specific to a jurisdiction, we have our own internal best practice policy which dictates the process we follow. We obviously follow the rules laid out by our license provider and ADR and mirror these in other territories as part of our dedication to being a responsible gambling operator."

Ronnie @ Cloudbet thank you for the post

It would be helpful if the response from your support team was added to the website regarding your internal AML policy.

Right now the primary issue I see with regards to AML/KYC is that the acronyms "AML" and "KYC" are not actually listed, written or mentioned in the TOS or any other pages of the Cloudbet website. Please could you explain why that is the case yet customers have to abide your internal AML practice which customers have no idea about as it is not written anywhere on your website.

Please could you also explain when you intend to implement EU laws regarding GDPR. When will your website become GDPR compliant? Until then your website is effectively in breach of EU law. Your website does not even display cookie notifications which also is in breach of EU regulations.

Thank you

[marlboroza]

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KYC laws apply equally for deposits and withdrawals if they pass a certain amount.

Usually(always?), player is required to provide their credentials on registration but no one will ask picture of ID card if deposit amount is small. I don't know how it works for bigger amounts, but anyway, they have right to enforce KYC at any time for whatever reason they want. What I meant to say is that they don't need to verify identity of each user on sign-up or deposit, that's all.
As for withdrawals, I don't know how it is in other countries and by other laws, but for example in my country, no one is selectively asking ID's on withdrawal, it is required to provide picture of ID on first withdrawal even for smallest amount.

We don't enforce KYC to every player, as far as i'm aware it's used when some red flags are raised - such as in this case where a player requests a withdrawal without having used any of their funds. This is to comply with AML laws.

Only red flag in this particular case was - player wants to place bet, after deposit they found out that they can't place bet with their deposit. How is this red flag?

Why Cloudbet accepted deposit under minimum bet requirement?

Better question is, if this really was big red flag(which in my opinion wasn't) and they enforced KYC because of AML, why did Cludbet send money back to player? Player refused to provide their identity. This certainly doesn't comply with AML laws.

@marlboroza You make a very good point about agreeing to T&Cs at sign up. The paragraph below covers agreement to T&Cs

This is not true.

Besides, even if this was true(and it isn't) paragraph is not visible if someone enters date of birth manually, and of course, why would someone who is 18+ go trough 18+ years clicking on calendar month by month to find their date of birth:



Looking at sign up form given by Cloudbet, such paragraph is very well hidden. ToS doesn't even exist on that page.

We obviously follow the rules laid out by our license provider

Can you point me to their website  and also if you don't mind can you point me where can we find information about their concession? Just to see if our info match  

[game-protect]

In regards to the KYC jurisdiction, I received a response from support yesterday but was out of the office - "AML is not really specific to a jurisdiction, we have our own internal best practice policy which dictates the process we follow. We obviously follow the rules laid out by our license provider and ADR and mirror these in other territories as part of our dedication to being a responsible gambling operator."

That is the biggest nonsense answer I have ever heard!!!

Of course are AML laws specific to the jurisdiction within the operator of a casino is incorporated!

We clearly state our Terms and Conditions and where our license is held. Unfortunately, I have no further information beyond what is provided on that page. You can contact E Gambling Montenegro directly for information or dispute resolution if you ever have cause for complaint.

It is really unbelievable that you persist to claim you have a Montenegrin license while it was several times posted in this thread that the license was seized on June 30, 2017 by Montenegrin authorities!

WARNING TO ALL CLOUDBET USERS AND NEW USERS - DO NOT DEPOSIT FUNDS - THEY HAVE NO LICENSE!

Copy paste from cloudbet.com website:

"Cloudbet is a licensed bitcoin betting site by E-Gambling Montenegro.

E Gambling Montenegro d.o.o (Podgorica, Moskovska br. 65., reg. no. 5-0615951) hereby certifies that under the concession (serial no. AA 001588, numeric no. 133-01/15 5A i 1ERR) and approval (no. 02/02-118/4), organize and operate games of chance in Montenegro on website  in accordance with the Agreement on management and financial cooperation, concluded between E Gambling Montenegro d.o.o. and TIGER TREE HOLDINGS do.o.o (Cetinje, Njegoseva br. 97., reg. no. 50721755) TIN: 03035166 on 5 March, 2015 which is valid from 05 March, 2017 until 05 September 2018."


Cloudbet.com facts and figures:

Cloudbet.com has no license whatsoever
E Gambling Montenegro has no licence - it was revoked from them last year. E gambling Montenegro by the law CAN NOT give gambling licenses to other companies.
Company that is behind Cloudbet.com is Tiger Tree Holding DOO which is opened up on stolen ID and it is a case of Identity theft
Tiger Tree Holdings DOO location is an empty store front in Cetinje, Montenegro. Also on this address there are 12 more other companies registered - also frauds.


OFFICIAL EMAIL from Montenegro authorities:


"Što se tiče priređivača E-Gambling Montenegro DOO, koncesija za priređivanje igara putem interneta ovom društvu je oduzeta 30.06.2017. godine, a Ugovor o koncesiji za priređivanje putem automata ovom privrednom društvu istekao je dana 04.02.2018. godine i nije produžen."


Translation to English:

"As for the E-Gambling Montenegro LLC organizer, the concession for Internet games to this company was seized on June 30, 2017. On the 4th of February, 2018, the Concession Agreement for automated automation was expired. It is not extended."


CLOUDBET.COM HAS NO LICENSE!

Confirms what a shady and criminal operation you are!!!

[slaman29]

@slaman29 Thanks for stopping by! At the moment we only request KYC when certain flags have been raised. We try to avoid it wherever possible as we know anonymity is very important to some of our players, and I suspect that KYC for all new players on sign up would drive a lot of people away. It's something I'm happy to pass on as feedback to the team though, as I know the topic comes up for discussion regularly.

Thank you for your response Ronnie at least we see that you guys are being open about this, and this is exactly what I'm trying to say actually.

You are right, players like me are absolutely never going to sign up at a site that needs KYC. But this means for me, as long as there is the possibility that kyc is required, I am never playing, and I know almost 100% anyone who wouldn't sign up because of KYC at signup, would also never sign up if there would be kyc down the line.

So it is extremely important you make it clear at the site on sign up. So people don't get unfairly "trapped".

[JollyGood]

@slaman29 Thanks for stopping by! At the moment we only request KYC when certain flags have been raised. We try to avoid it wherever possible as we know anonymity is very important to some of our players, and I suspect that KYC for all new players on sign up would drive a lot of people away. It's something I'm happy to pass on as feedback to the team though, as I know the topic comes up for discussion regularly.

Thank you for your response Ronnie at least we see that you guys are being open about this, and this is exactly what I'm trying to say actually.

You are right, players like me are absolutely never going to sign up at a site that needs KYC. But this means for me, as long as there is the possibility that kyc is required, I am never playing, and I know almost 100% anyone who wouldn't sign up because of KYC at signup, would also never sign up if there would be kyc down the line.

So it is extremely important you make it clear at the site on sign up. So people don't get unfairly "trapped".

I agree. If not at sign up then KYC if required must be requested before any deposits can be made. What must be avoided is a customer having his account frozen awaiting KYC after he wins or after he deposits funds because that would be unfair.

Nobody legally requires AML/KYC for crypto gambling or crypto-related websites because there is no international consensus or single definition on what rules should apply.

For example, if you bounce a check/cheque in Dubai it leads to immediate arrest and an automatic jail sentence because it is considered a criminal offence but doing so anywhere in Europe or most countries around the world it is not even a civil offence, no way are you going to a police station for that let alone a jail. Another example, in the USA if you commit murder in various states you will get the death penalty but in other states you will never be sentenced to death. Likewise, there is no single internationally accepted and implemented cause that raises flags that force website owners to request KYC.

As long as no FIAT is involved then AML/KYC are virtually non-existent requirements.

Speaking of the USA, your website gambling website is not legal in the USA so why are you not blocking access in the way STAKE does with a js alert stating:
"Sorry, Stake isn't available in your Region. Not in a restricted region? If you're using a proxy service or VPN to access Stake, try turning it off and reload the page.?"

Most gambling sites play this KYC/AML game against their users when they want to scam

[game-protect]

Nobody legally requires AML/KYC for crypto gambling or crypto-related websites because there is no international consensus or single definition on what rules should apply.

As long as no FIAT is involved then AML/KYC are virtually non-existent requirements.

I have no idea what the sense of your nonsense post it, but in many jurisdictions AML/KYC laws are also applicable for crypto currencies!

[JollyGood]

Nobody legally requires AML/KYC for crypto gambling or crypto-related websites because there is no international consensus or single definition on what rules should apply.

As long as no FIAT is involved then AML/KYC are virtually non-existent requirements.

I have no idea what the sense of your nonsense post it, but in many jurisdictions AML/KYC laws are also applicable for crypto currencies!

Oh Lord here we go again... Please provide

1) the name of any jurisdiction where crypto can be traded without using FIAT and WITHOUT providing AML/KYC

2) the name of any jurisdiction where crypto can be traded without using FIAT but MUST provide AML/KYC

3) the name of any jurisdiction where crypto casinos are lawful WITHOUT providing AML/KYC

4) the name of any jurisdiction where crypto casinos are lawful WITH MANDATORY AML/KYC

As mentioned, if any conversion of crypto either FIAT>CRYPTO or CRYTPO>FIAT takes place then various regulations kick in no matter which country the exchanger/trader is located or registered in.

If all transactions taking place are simply CRYPTO>CRYPTO then there are plenty of jurisdictions around the world where AML/KYC on those websites is not necessary or mandatory.

[JollyGood]

I have no idea what the sense of your nonsense post it, but in many jurisdictions AML/KYC laws are also applicable for crypto currencies!

I usually expect the unexpected from you but that comment made me do a double-take  

[JollyGood]

@game-protect

I see you did not answer. As mentioned nothing surprises me about what you write but for what it is worth Cloudbet and all online crypto casinos are under zero obligation to obtain KYC because they are dealing in crypto and not with FIAT.

[JollyGood]

@game-protect

I see you did not answer. As mentioned nothing surprises me about what you write but for what it is worth Cloudbet and all online crypto casinos are under zero obligation to obtain KYC because they are dealing in crypto and not with FIAT.

Why should I answer to your trading questings while I speak about online crypto currency casinos?

Also, how is FIAT related to Fraudbet? Do they take FIAT deposits?

I have better things to do than answering all nonsense questions on bitcointalk.

Go back in the thread, I never mentioned Fraudbet (no idea what it is anyway)

The point is as long as you have non-FIAT online gambling website then there is no need for a licence if you register in Costa Rica and there is no KYC requirement there.

If all transactions taking place are simply crypto (not using FIAT) then there are plenty of jurisdictions around the world where AML/KYC on those websites is not necessary or mandatory and in several cases a gambling licence is not needed either.

[game-protect]

If all transactions taking place are simply crypto (not using FIAT) then there are plenty of jurisdictions around the world where AML/KYC on those websites is not necessary or mandatory and in several cases a gambling licence is not needed either.

Then give some examples of the plenty of jurisdictions around the world where AML/KYC is not mandatory for crypto currency casinos and a gambling license is also not needed?

Do you think the hundreds of Curaçao based casinos pay $40,000 and more every year while they can operate legally and without AML/KYC requirement in plenty jurisdictions around the world?

[JollyGood]

Then give some examples of the plenty of jurisdictions around the world where AML/KYC is not mandatory for crypto currency casinos and a gambling license is also not needed?

Do you think the hundreds of Curaçao based casinos pay $40,000 and more every year while they can operate legally and without AML/KYC requirement in plenty jurisdictions around the world?

Costa Rica is one:
https://www.gamblingsites.com/online-gambling-jurisdictions/costa-rica/