[Closed]R17x: Black Arrow Prospero X-3 <DZMC Exclusive> $130 / 40GHS

[smooth]

a) If anyone has acted in bad faith here it's BA not the DZMC.
b) There is no money to get back from the DZMC so it's a futile argument on liability.
c) DZMC may have been careless or at worst incompetent in including a money back promise they couldn't honour, that does not PROVE any intent to defraud.

These things may all be true or they may not.

It seems unless there is a better resolution, my shares have become essentially worthless, and I'm not going to just blindly adopt the interpretation of the facts that happens to be most favorable to those to whom I sent money, who promised me a refunds (less 1.5% "restocking fee") and stand to gave me nothing or next to nothing in return. Something clearly went wrong, $500K or so went poof, and it is foolish to assume we know everything there is to know about the situation. We'll see how it works out.

[howardb]

"and it is foolish to assume we know everything there is to know about the situation" I doubt anyones making that assumption. But most of the 'fog' in our understanding is in what's happened down at BA.

a) Have they really built something? anyone even seen a working model?
b) Are they being honest about the delay or indeed honest full stop?
c) Have they been mining for themselves?
d) Has the pre-order money all been used in design/fabrication? can they prove that?
e) Can they make this right? (More kit or refunds)

Let's just let bobsag clear some of these questions up before we all go off on hissy fits...

Oh and one more thing. If the kit really is simply 'delayed' then there is no way that BA will be able to sell more without a significant price reduction. The original order
has a price promise attached to it, in that event, we should be pressing for the refund or extra kit based on the price promise.

[smooth]

"and it is foolish to assume we know everything there is to know about the situation" I doubt anyones making that assumption. But most of the 'fog' in our understanding is in what's happened down at BA.

a) Have they really built something? anyone even seen a working model?
b) Are they being honest about the delay or indeed honest full stop?
c) Have they been mining for themselves?
d) Has the pre-order money all been used in design/fabrication? can they prove that?
e) Can they make this right? (More kit or refunds)

Let's just let bobsag clear some of these questions up before we all go off on hissy fits...

I have some additional questions for the DZ folks (and by which I include any related parties or businesses):

a) How much did you actually pay for the miners? Was there a markup/commission/etc. or other compensation from BA for you (equipment, rebates, discounts, etc.)
b) What is the relationship between DZ and its principals (and related businesses) and BA? Are you just buying miners from them or do you have any ownership or other beneficial interest in BA?
c) Can you demonstrate clearly (say by an independent audit) that all of the coins I sent to you were actually sent to BA?

It may be that BA is fully to blame, no others did anything wrong, and that there are in fact no coins left that can be refunded. But until that is clearly demonstrated, I only know to whom I actually sent the coins. It is up to that party to demonstrate to me they are entirely blameless for the loss, or just give my coins back one way or another (which might be the best resolution for all concerned).

[TechByPC]

Ok, we are all playing barrack room lawyers now.  I've got 14 shares on this, and to put it simply have the following opinion:

a) If anyone has acted in bad faith here it's BA not the DZMC.
b) There is no money to get back from the DZMC so it's a futile argument on liability.
c) DZMC may have been careless or at worst incompetent in including a money back promise they couldn't honour, that does not PROVE any intent to defraud.
d) I would still trust DZMC on other group buys, they are well intentioned good people as far as I can tell.
e) Working WITH DZMC and not against them to exert market reputational pressure on BA is our best bet to get either a refund or much increased kit further down the road.

To your points, a) unless I knew DZMC people personally I couldn't say what you do about them, but I do agree that there is no evidence yet they have acted in bad faith. b) is moot because people can be vindictive regardless of monetary reward. I will reserve judgement on c/d) to see if they pay a little more attention to the contract wording for future group buys. I absolutely agree with e).

I had to look up what a barrack room lawyer is, so I wanted to just also state that nothing I have said or anyone has said here should be taken for legal advice. Most everything I've read here has either been common sense or a severe lack of it. I didn't see any legal advice, although I do have a few people on ignore.

I'm also not seeing anyone yelling or carrying torches and pitchforks, so I'm a little confused by that. I suspect people are having problems with reading comprehension or this is their first foray onto the Internet if they think that any of these posts are to that level yet.

Let me write it clearly and plainly:

The reason I posted here was to counter someone asserting that DZ had no liability here. They do. They offered refunds up until shipping. I wish they had not. I wish they had said no refunds possible. Right now my preference is staying in and seeing how the negotiations go and what future benefits we may be able to get out of BA, but if DZ starts getting dragged into the legal system, any hope of refunds or product to everyone else is gone.

[gigacoiner]

Interesting.  Could we get something like this?

E-Mail from KnC:
https://www.kncminer.com/news/news-75

Plan B

As you are all aware we broke many world records in releasing the 28nm chip in such a short amount of time. We are a very ambitious company but even for us, to go “all in” and not be able to deliver on our performance targets, like our competition, would be completely unacceptable to us as a company and everything we stand for. So today we are introducing, Plan B.
 
To make sure that everyone who has paid for their Neptune we are building a data centre like no other. It is located in the north of Sweden not far from Facebook and other Mega Data Centres and it’s totally powered by renewable energy.
 
Over the next few months we are bringing online enough hashing power to make sure that any delay in the Neptune timeline will be compensated with a completely free hosted hashing packages to all fully paid customers.
 
In the addition to this commitment, as part of Plan B, for all Neptune customers, we will be offering a free conversion to a hosted hashing package where we will simply fill your wallets directly and you won’t have to worry about anything else. All the other costs taken care of by us. We are able to do this by using our 28nm chips which is why all products that we have coming out of our factory in the next few months will go into building and supplying the Plan B facility.
 
If, during the course of development of Neptune, there is any threat to the timelines for delivery, those delays will not result in the loss of any mining time for our Neptune customers. We will release more details of this as we get closer to the delivery date, but for now we have one of the world’s largest data centres to build.

[howardb]

Interesting.  Could we get something like this?

E-Mail from KnC

Plan B

As you are all aware we broke many world records in releasing the 28nm chip in such a short amount of time. We are a very ambitious company but even for us, to go “all in” and not be able to deliver on our performance targets, like our competition, would be completely unacceptable to us as a company and everything we stand for. So today we are introducing, Plan B.
 
To make sure that everyone who has paid for their Neptune we are building a data centre like no other. It is located in the north of Sweden not far from Facebook and other Mega Data Centres and it’s totally powered by renewable energy.
 
Over the next few months we are bringing online enough hashing power to make sure that any delay in the Neptune timeline will be compensated with a completely free hosted hashing packages to all fully paid customers.
 
In the addition to this commitment, as part of Plan B, for all Neptune customers, we will be offering a free conversion to a hosted hashing package where we will simply fill your wallets directly and you won’t have to worry about anything else. All the other costs taken care of by us. We are able to do this by using our 28nm chips which is why all products that we have coming out of our factory in the next few months will go into building and supplying the Plan B facility.
 
If, during the course of development of Neptune, there is any threat to the timelines for delivery, those delays will not result in the loss of any mining time for our Neptune customers. We will release more details of this as we get closer to the delivery date, but for now we have one of the world’s largest data centres to build.

Well BA are not alone in issuing bad news, Cointerra have already admitted their miners are going to do about 1.6 TH instead of 2 and take 20% more juice than expected. To stick the knife in they have told their customers they will get vouchers towards buying more kit! lol http://cointerra.com/update-production-news-janfeb-batch-customer-offer/

[tripppn]

Interesting.  Could we get something like this?

E-Mail from KnC

Plan B

As you are all aware we broke many world records in releasing the 28nm chip in such a short amount of time. We are a very ambitious company but even for us, to go “all in” and not be able to deliver on our performance targets, like our competition, would be completely unacceptable to us as a company and everything we stand for. So today we are introducing, Plan B.
 
To make sure that everyone who has paid for their Neptune we are building a data centre like no other. It is located in the north of Sweden not far from Facebook and other Mega Data Centres and it’s totally powered by renewable energy.
 
Over the next few months we are bringing online enough hashing power to make sure that any delay in the Neptune timeline will be compensated with a completely free hosted hashing packages to all fully paid customers.
 
In the addition to this commitment, as part of Plan B, for all Neptune customers, we will be offering a free conversion to a hosted hashing package where we will simply fill your wallets directly and you won’t have to worry about anything else. All the other costs taken care of by us. We are able to do this by using our 28nm chips which is why all products that we have coming out of our factory in the next few months will go into building and supplying the Plan B facility.
 
If, during the course of development of Neptune, there is any threat to the timelines for delivery, those delays will not result in the loss of any mining time for our Neptune customers. We will release more details of this as we get closer to the delivery date, but for now we have one of the world’s largest data centres to build.

Ya that would have been nice.

[TechByPC]

Interesting.  Could we get something like this?

E-Mail from KnC

Yeah, I think something like that is entirely likely. Or a perpetual discount on further group buys with the DZ/BA pair where we actually have a chance at a positive BTC return. Looking long-term I don't think this is a complete loss yet.

If it is true that the next generation of mining will be done only in data centers, then we're going to want to be in a relationship with a hardware manufacturer and a data center. I think this is far from over, and there is some potential long-term upside to this if DZ plays the cards right.

[philipma1957]

Interesting.  Could we get something like this?

E-Mail from KnC

Plan B

As you are all aware we broke many world records in releasing the 28nm chip in such a short amount of time. We are a very ambitious company but even for us, to go “all in” and not be able to deliver on our performance targets, like our competition, would be completely unacceptable to us as a company and everything we stand for. So today we are introducing, Plan B.
 
To make sure that everyone who has paid for their Neptune we are building a data centre like no other. It is located in the north of Sweden not far from Facebook and other Mega Data Centres and it’s totally powered by renewable energy.
 
Over the next few months we are bringing online enough hashing power to make sure that any delay in the Neptune timeline will be compensated with a completely free hosted hashing packages to all fully paid customers.
 
In the addition to this commitment, as part of Plan B, for all Neptune customers, we will be offering a free conversion to a hosted hashing package where we will simply fill your wallets directly and you won’t have to worry about anything else. All the other costs taken care of by us. We are able to do this by using our 28nm chips which is why all products that we have coming out of our factory in the next few months will go into building and supplying the Plan B facility.
 
If, during the course of development of Neptune, there is any threat to the timelines for delivery, those delays will not result in the loss of any mining time for our Neptune customers. We will release more details of this as we get closer to the delivery date, but for now we have one of the world’s largest data centres to build.

 And this could work.

 If you got 20gh on feb 7 via a cloud account.  with a boost to ? gh in the future it would make for a pretty decent fix.

The first batch would have shipped feb 24  and lets argue it sets up on feb 28th…  


A partial lessor hash on feb 7   with a boost in may could be a decent solution.   Remember as of today the gear is not late since the set up day would

have been the 28th of feb.  

Asking for a refund is okay I guess but  [you we us] can wait a bit .  Maybe until feb 21-28 then freak if no fix happens.

[gigacoiner]

I believe Cointerra is offering to send a free miner for the late deliveries.

http://www.coindesk.com/cointerra-performance-issues-security-breach/

All customers who ordered the first batch of TerraMiner IV units, scheduled to ship in December, will now receive a second rig, free of charge.

Well BA are not alone in issuing bad news, Cointerra have already admitted their miners are going to do about 1.6 TH instead of 2 and take 20% more juice than expected.

[vleroybrown]

When is the meeting with Blackarrow supposed to occur?  This was my first BTC mining investment and was convinced that this would be the right coop due to the refund policy and track record of DMZ.  I have 7 shares in this which is over 10% of my total stake in BTC. Another 18% is trapped at MtGox.  As a couple of supposed veteran members of the btc community it seems for BTC nothing is as it seems even when it comes to the supposed professionals.

[ThugRock]

Please can you take some time to update as to what is happening DZ, many have placed orders with you for a lot of money here and frankly the lack of communication is becoming more & more worrying.

A daily update would only take a few minutes and it would be good, and just plain right, for all involved to know what is going on.

[Tasweb]

Word back from bobsag3/borito4 (I want to know if there's a bomber5 or speedracer5 in his acct. stable too):

We don't know when that extra 25% will come online, but that's part of the reason why bobsag3 is taking a 2nd trip to meet up with BA (this time to the UK) to discuss our paid co-op order and minersource.net's orders and what can be done to speed up our orders.

We should have more clarity on this once he's had a chance to fly out to meet with BA next week Monday or Tuesday.

It's now Wednesday morning in London.

Can we please have an update on bobsag3's meeting with BA or has it been delayed?

[Lloydie]

Word back from bobsag3/borito4 (I want to know if there's a bomber5 or speedracer5 in his acct. stable too):

We don't know when that extra 25% will come online, but that's part of the reason why bobsag3 is taking a 2nd trip to meet up with BA (this time to the UK) to discuss our paid co-op order and minersource.net's orders and what can be done to speed up our orders.

We should have more clarity on this once he's had a chance to fly out to meet with BA next week Monday or Tuesday.

It's now Wednesday morning in London.

Can we please have an update on bobsag3's meeting with BA or has it been delayed?

bobsag3 trying to get some sleep then meeting them.  Updates in about 24 hours from 2 hours ago.

[Budtrader]

Hey, just wondering if my order has gone through or what?  I posted about it when I placed my order back on page 5 on Nov 23 2013.

Order #786  14d9759e652a849f04f2e8d59e74eacc067f5d469690fbba7fe728fc50b6c86a

The order status always says "processing", and yes, I checked it on the right site.

I got an e-mail at one point saying that I had failed to provide a payment address when the order was placed. So I e-mailed it as was requested by you guys.
 
IDK, just a little confused. Any help or info would be appreciated.




Thanks,
Budtrader

[howardb]

Word back from bobsag3/borito4 (I want to know if there's a bomber5 or speedracer5 in his acct. stable too):

We don't know when that extra 25% will come online, but that's part of the reason why bobsag3 is taking a 2nd trip to meet up with BA (this time to the UK) to discuss our paid co-op order and minersource.net's orders and what can be done to speed up our orders.

We should have more clarity on this once he's had a chance to fly out to meet with BA next week Monday or Tuesday.

It's now Wednesday morning in London.

Can we please have an update on bobsag3's meeting with BA or has it been delayed?

bobsag3 trying to get some sleep then meeting them.  Updates in about 24 hours from 2 hours ago.

He picked worst possible time to visit, london is in chaos with tube strike. I'm based just north of london, so does BA have an office there?

[bobsag3]

Word back from bobsag3/borito4 (I want to know if there's a bomber5 or speedracer5 in his acct. stable too):

We don't know when that extra 25% will come online, but that's part of the reason why bobsag3 is taking a 2nd trip to meet up with BA (this time to the UK) to discuss our paid co-op order and minersource.net's orders and what can be done to speed up our orders.

We should have more clarity on this once he's had a chance to fly out to meet with BA next week Monday or Tuesday.

It's now Wednesday morning in London.

Can we please have an update on bobsag3's meeting with BA or has it been delayed?

bobsag3 trying to get some sleep then meeting them.  Updates in about 24 hours from 2 hours ago.

He picked worst possible time to visit, london is in chaos with tube strike. I'm based just north of london, so does BA have an office there?

Just checked into my hotel @ heathrow
I was meeting with them in Reading, so I got a bus from there> heathrow, then a taxi to the hotel.

Got lots of news n things, going to get some food and read over my notes before I post anything, but it looks pretty good from my view.

[stevenf]

Just checked into my hotel @ heathrow
I was meeting with them in Reading, so I got a bus from there> heathrow, then a taxi to the hotel.

Got lots of news n things, going to get some food and read over my notes before I post anything, but it looks pretty good from my view.

Thanks for the quick update! Looking forward to the news.

[scubafossil]

Waiting with baited breath

[Jhonka86]

Waiting with baited breath

It's past midnight in London right now, so I wouldn't be expecting a post tonight unless he's a night owl.  I think a more realistic time is in 12 hours or so.